Twinky

I wonder if that "translates" for today's generation, with laptops and Word programs that are silent and sort out the spelling and grammar for you too?

Now, now, Rocky, calm down. Might have to report you to Modcat5

I long ago came to the conclusion that neither God nor the Lord Jesus cares about trinitarianism or otherwise. They've had 2000 years to correct the error if it's important to them. But no, if anything, trinis are getting more aggressive in pushing their PoV. Its seems to me that they'd rather you believed God in whatever form - trini or otherwise - and whether JC=G or JCNG doesn't matter. To trinis, he is God. To non-trinis, JC is the embodiment or encapsulation of all of God's goodness and righteousness, whilst being fully and only human. I go to a church that's really quite trini, but it's not really a discussed matter. What is discussed, preached and practised is kindness, trusting God, honouring God, believing God, and looking at Jesus as the model and the loving carer for the church. And far from being possessed, the congregation in general and the leadership in particular are working very actively to combat poverty, loneliness, and to bring the love of God and Jesus to a neighbourhood where many don't know at all, and who have daily problems that need practical help (which is given as much as possible). I have never heard a condemning word - "You've got these problems? It's your believing at fault. Your problems are your fault. Are you sure you're abundantly sharing?" Abundantly sharing? Heck, it goes the other way: the church supports with free meals and food parcels those who for whatever reason have the choice between "heat," "eat" and "feet" - paying for their gas/electricity, food for the kids, and clothing and other necessaries. Does that sound like "possessed" to you, Mike? Or does looking poverty or any type of distress in the face, quoting Bible verses and offering to pray but not otherwise doing anything - does that sound more "possessed"?

Wordwolf: it's called RISK ASSESSMENT and pretty much everything these days has to have a risk assessment. I can't see TWI doing such things! Waste of time, and if the people participating are really believing, then there is no risk. Besides, you can always fudge one afterwards if there were such problematical things as accidents or assaults, that might result in legal proceedings. Perhaps to the TWI head honchos, the real risk assessment is: would people sue, if they were injured? No, because that was so strongly discouraged by TWI, and anyway, they might pay a tiny percentage of actual medical costs.

Wot? Isn't TWI now the softer, gentler, organisation (per RFR)? TWI changes people - brings out the worst in them. People don't change TWI. Lawyers have had a go at changing TWI, but they're only tinkering round the edges. Not the core beliefs or structural arrangements.

I don't know if Vern is one of those. I knew him long ago, not well, and he was a really nice chap, with nothing of the narcissist about him. Quite the opposite, it seemed. (Jill! I just remembered his wife's name). He'd recently become engaged to Jill, I think; and she was a nice woman. Sad to see her as a sort of wooden doll on their "Staff" video. Can Vern - or Jill - change to become narcissists? I don't think so. Though I do suppose he could be swept up by TWI authoritarianism. "I said it, I'm the boss, so you just do it."

Yes indeed. Red? Never been a TWI colour, more like a cheap supermarket. You'd think they'd have bright green (WC green) at least, or as staff nametags were woodgrain pattern, perhaps a brown T shirt. Ore even a blue (representing God) shirt. But red? Ha! Got it! In the AoS video, the "seed" dancer was dressed all in red. Subliminal message, perhaps.

Just a quick question: do churches in the US usually have a board of directors to run the organisation? If not, what's usually established to manage the church and give direction?

You need to go possess a beer, T-Bone.

Yes he did. Had you left by the time the order came through to destroy all those old tapes from STPDRO and many others, etc? If you didn't destroy them, you'd get pozzest. Nonetheless, some tapes were bootlegged and still circulated. Come to think of it, maybe that's why I got possezt many years later...

That's almost a cool video. Copied the idea, though they might want to claim credit for thinking of tossing a ball of wool around. Vrn's wife, can't remember her name, but she had been a lovely lass when I first knew her, looks like a mannequin. Thought she was fake until she moved her plastic smile. I can't think they have that many people on staff. Perhaps they roped in every local believer and made them put on a Tshirt. Why so many "staff"?; wouldn't they be more productive "on the field"?

Blah blah blah. What about his own respect for his own ordination vows?

Actually, what did for "that way of life" was really the two world wars. Men were conscripted to fight in the army. It opened their eyes to new possibilities - as new surroundings always should. Big landowners couldn't manage the lands as efficiently. What's more, there were huge taxes (inheritance tax charged on assets of all kinds - land and houses and possessions) that meant that much had to be sold to pay those taxes. Huge landholdings were broken up. This, of course, affected both good landowners and greedy ones who didn't take care of the staff. Unfortunately, nearly all societies have their hierarchies - look at (say) Saudi Arabia, fine if you a male in the royal family, not so good if you are a female, and terrible if you are a national. Re-read some or George Orwell's work: "All animals are equal... but some animals are more equal than others." In those "all societies" there are groups, clubs, organisations. And cults. All these religious cults seem to have a person of great influence and charisma at the head - usually but not always a male. And they subjugate their congregations. And they especially subjugate their female congregants. TWI, despite its claims otherwise, is nothing special in this regard. Unfortunately. An absolutely text-book bog-standard abusive religious cult. I've never seen Downton Abbey (despite it being filmed in part near where I live). I wonder if they dealt at any stage with the sexual abuse that went on in some households? The master of the house having his way with the maids? The sons of the household learning about sexual activity with the maids? And the casting out of maids who became pregnant, chucking them out with no reference (which pretty much made sure they couldn't get another job) and accepting no responsibility for the child. Such women were considered morally repugnant - of loose morals and they'd corrupt the household (ie, the lord of the household and his sons). It was never seen the other way around! Lest you think this was confined to the upper classes of the UK: "No, I did not have sex with that woman!"

No frikkin way!

I proudly announce that I am debt-free. Always have been. My entire life. Never have had to borrow any money, ever, except when I bought my house. Wow, how did I achieve this astonishing feat? My parents taught me. There was little money in the household when we were brought up. Mum couldn't work due to caring responsibilities for her own small kids, and for her elderly grandparents who lived in a nearby village (to which she cycled every day). Dad worked hard at his job and if he could, did overtime or worked as a builder's labourer at weekend, just to make ends meet. I saw the money set aside in a moneybox: this for the milk, this for the gas, this for the rent... Despite great poverty at times, my parents never borrowed. Never. And that's what they taught us. And they gave what they could, to support others. After I escaped TWI, full of guilt and shame (brought on by TWI-teachings) it took me a very long time (because we shouldn't have debts, of course: ungodly) to decide to buy a house . And that was because I couldn't afford to rent anywhere in this city!! Over the years, I've paid off capital lump sums and reduced the time commitment. I now have a tiny mortgage that I have been able to pay off completely for some time; however, the interest over my remaining term I calculate at about £9 and to pay off that amount right now would be £52. So hey! It's cheaper to be in debt!! But come on December (last payment). So soon I will have a capital asset, debt-free, worth a lot of money. Should I sell it and give the cash to TWI? No bloody fear! Do I regret buying a house? No way!! I couldn't afford rents when I bought, and I definitely can't now, 14 years later. I'm just glad the mortgage doesn't continue for another 7 years (to its original term). Advanced class? Phooey! They need classes on COMMON SENSE!

Credit where it's due. Well done, Mark.

Hadn't heard that take on it, Outie. But then, why should there be consistency? What they taught one year or decade could be the exact opposite of something taught in another year or decade.

So come and join some other threads NOT related to TWI, PFAL, or anything of like nature. Schmooze away in Open about the dancing you've been doing. Chat about a book you read. Tell a few jokes.

I found it really hard when I got out. I'd hooked up with some exWayfers who were running fellowships in their home: two fellowships in nearby cities. And one of these exWayers generously allowed me to stay with him while I was in the process of buying my house. None of these people had been Corps - in fact, I don't even know if any of them had taken the advanced class. I was pretty broken and smashed about at the time, but they couldn't hear the pain I was in, couldn't hear the things I said. The female most sympathetic just thought I should get over it; another male thought he could lord it over me; and the one I was staying with seemed to idolise VPW. None of them would hear a word against VPW, his plagiarism, the stuff that went on at HQ, etc etc. A couple of years later I learned that a lovely young man in one of these fellowships proposed to go and join Sowers. Having read a lot about that here, I took him out for a walk in the park and told him a few home truths about the likely setup, based on what I knew of WC training. He decided to go ahead anyway but (happily) couldn't get the visa and never went. I stopped hanging out with these groups before very long - a few months. And happily I found a very good church where people realised I was hurting about something I wouldn't talk about, and they just gave me space, but kind space. Still nobody in the church knows my history. But I do know that that church has become home to quite a few people who have got out from other abusive church relationships - Plymouth Brethren, among other cultish stuff/

Interesting vid, Waysider. Yep, seen it all before; far too familiar story. Right down to the enormous effort needed to break the hold of cult-brain. Glad the young woman's parents were able to rescue her. (Zumba in dark glasses!)

Ah! The long white night. Enjoy Alaska. I would like to visit there one day.

I think this is a serious question, but not quite the one posed. What is witnessing? I don't think it's going around banging on people's doors, and harassing them in parking lots and shopping malls. I don't know who has ever been "won to the Lord" by such means. More, it's likely to turn them off and certainly make the "witnessee" regard the witnesser with a cautious look. Witnessing is more like "living it" and letting your life show what you believe. "...be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..." (1 Pet 3:15), is what we were taught. But the wider context is this (1 Pet 3:8-16): Do No Evil 8Now finally, all of you should be like-minded and sympathetic, should love believers, and be compassionate and humble, 9not paying back evil for evil or insult for insult but, on the contrary, giving a blessing, since you were called for this, so that you can inherit a blessing. 10For the one who wants to love life and to see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking deceit, and he must turn away from evil and do what is good. He must seek peace and pursue it12because the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and His ears are open to their request. But the face of the Lord is against those who do what is evil. Undeserved Suffering 13And who will harm you if you are deeply committed to what is good? 14But even if you should suffer for righteousness, you are blessed. Do not fear what they fear or be disturbed, 15but honor the •Messiah as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you. 16However, do this with gentleness and respect, keeping your conscience clear, so that when you are accused, those who denounce your Christian life will be put to shame. So: witnessing is, among other things, being kind, loving, compassionate and humble; blessing others, guarding one's tongue, watching what you say at all times, seeking peace, etc. This theme is common throughout the epistles. You will see that Jesus spoke kindly to those who sought him for the truth, but quick to perceive those who were being dishonest in their questioning of him. He confused crowds with his parables, but spoke plainly to those who were prepared to listen. You will not see Jesus going from house to house, but going about his own business and speaking to people he encountered on the way, people also often going about their business and daily tasks. You will see he sent his disciples out in pairs to speak, but not to harass: if they themselves were harassed, they were to move on without regret. Because of the lifestyle Jesus lived, he didn't have to hammer on doors; rather, those behind the doors came hammering on the doors of places where he was. Early Christians were known for their community lifestyle: sharing food, sharing financial abundance, non-discrimination, generosity of heart, looking out for each other. That's what got them noticed; that's why people wanted to join them. I'm sure they were asked many times, "Why do you do this?" And additionally then, naysayers came in also, accusing, being divisive, and that's where the Christians' answer of truth, the defence of the gospel, came in. I loved the passion of the young believers I met when I first got "witnessed to" - enthusiasm for God; knowledge of parts of the Bible, ability to open a bible and find verses. I met the person who witnessed to me at a party; there seemed to be a glow about him, a real light and charisma. Not everyone has charisma; but we can all have passion and a commitment to speak truth in all circumstances. And we can all be kind, loving, compassionate, watch what we say, and seek peace. That will still catch people's attention. Not banging on their doors!

Er ... what are you on, T-Bone? Too much wine, too much weed, something else?

Mike, JCOP, JCNG and JCPOS are not in the Orange Book. And - the epistles were seriously venerated; the gospels were despised. (Yes they were, Mike!) JCNG was pushed, as a way of distinguishing TWI from more mainline churches. The others you mention weren't particularly promoted; they are better and more researched (but still with a lot of bias) - but much more emphasis was on the PFAL books and venerating TWI's "Promised Seed," Victor-Paul Wierwille. And besides hardly giving the gospels a mention, the schedule, especially in the WC, was so controlled and so overburdened that there was hardly time to read anything. Study PFAL, work, study Corps Night notes, work, study the Sunday Service, work, study the "lunchtime sharings," work, work, work, get ready for this or that ministry event... Gospels? You should be reading Ephesians - the breakfast of champions!