Twinky

T-Bone, I don't forget how confident I was (once I got hooked in) that my (cult's) view was the right one. The certainty. The confidence it gave me. How I thought I knew it all, compared with deeply committed Christians I worked with, who quietly and gently got on with their jobs (and tried to tone me down a bit). I was impressed by the (limited) knowledge and great passion of the TWI believers that I met. To some extent, I can still be a bit like that. I might hear others praying (for example) - "If it be your will, God..." or where people pray, but don't seem to expect any outcome or answer to their prayer. I might think, "But just ask! Whatsoever you ask in my name, that I will do" and "Two or three gathered together..." and "It clearly states in the Bible that God's will is..." and then I have to shut myself up and tell myself to get off my high horse. I do take a longer view now ("wised up," if you like, T-Bone). The instant healing we expected maybe isn't achieved in this life. I've seen too many awesome Christians with incurable diseases, end-stage cancers, etc. Sometimes, it's their fortitude to bear and their continuing confidence in the Lord that is their witness - not some miracle of healing. (I don't really want to get into the nitty-gritty of that, very off topic). It takes a lot of reading, listening, thinking, discussion with others of different views to honestly form one's own views. "Wisdom in a multitude of counsellors." We need to see how God works in the lives of others in a way that may not be happening in our own lives. We need to trust that God does work in the lives of others just as he works in our own. We need to be open to feel the peace of God that people radiate when they are walking closely with him. We need to be confident enough in God to be able to say, "I don't know." I don't know why this is (or isn't) happening. I don't have a pat answer. But I do know that God is in you, me, us, in this situation. It is very far from us to judge another on what s/he believes, if they don't believe exactly like us. Whoever did? Shouldn't it be enough for us to develop our own relationship with God by learning from the Bible and from other people? And doing our best to cultivate the "fruit of the spirit" (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control) in our own lives? I am not seeing judgmentalism, legalism, being dogmatic, and being critical, in that list. As a group, there's been a lot of patience and kindness extended to Waxit. But he appears to be as immovable in this new set of beliefs as we were (and he was) when first in TWI and taking on PFAL. I don't know how long he has been involved with them. I do know he has a passion for the Lord. I hope that he (really) listens to the Lord - and to those who love him - not just give ear to some distant cult-master.

I am sorry to say that I think Waxit has merely exchanged one cult for another, as must have been apparent to all here since his first post. I had a rummage round the ccg website. I'm not impressed. Seems very controlling and really wants everyone in lockstep - or else!! The "Christian Churches of God," or parent body World Wide Churches of God, stem from a man who himself was a maverick preacher/minister, kicked out of his own church, so decided to found another (of which he was the head honcho, of course). Would you believe it, he had a radio show, too. (The parallels are too scary!) "Armstrongism" is now widely denounced and the splinter groups from the break-up of Armstrong's original church have changed many of his original doctrines. Armstrong's set-up appears to have been an even more greedy organisation than TWI. Here's a Wikipedia article (with all the usual inaccuracies, no doubt): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrongism and another very critical article from something that looks not unlike EmpireNet, but it doesn't appear linked: http://jbeard.users.rapidnet.com/bdm/Cults/armstrong.htm I'm sure Waxit will really hate me for saying the above. But yet, he is very much toeing the party line, and just as keen on this as he was when newly engaged with TWI.

Sad. Well, I had a lovely Sunday - Sabbath, if you wish, or even if you don't wish - honouring and respecting God and doing exactly what I said I'd do. I am rested and refreshed (the purpose of the sabbath). And I am loved and cared for by my God, the father of the Lord Jesus Christ, who sees me as his child. I know this, and I know it doesn't depend on what I do or don't do. It's not conditional upon what I do, whether I wear the right clothes, use the right words, pray 297 times a day or none, cover my head or don't - or observe a particular day above all others. I believe Gal 3; do you? (Might be worth a re-read) You'll see that this very chapter tells us that we are redeemed from the law. Bought back from it. Not under law any more. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

For the THIRD TIME OF ASKING, Waxit : PLEASE STATE WHAT VERSE(S) STATE THAT NOAH OBSERVED THE SABBATH? (Sabbath on any day of the week is acceptable). If you can't state what verse, can you please explain which of the highlighted words you don't understand and I will see if I can find an alternative word. It's your contention that Noah observed the Sabbath, I'm asking for the evidence.

My comment to which you replied, Waxit, was very tongue-in-cheek. You haven't bothered to reply to my comment on what YOU raised - about Noah.

You said it, Waxit - that Noah kept the Sabbath. I'm asking for your evidence. It clearly wasn't a "commandment." Not for Saturday, Sunday, or any other day of the week.

@ Mark: I think it was considered "day" when a white thread could be distinguished from a black thread. I've recently finished "online church" (it's a great service, with online coffee afterwards (=four or five breakout rooms) - nice to catch up with everybody. I will worship the Lord more fully when I go out for a lovely long walk in the sunshine, in the countryside that my house is very close to. I shall admire all the beautiful new foliage in so many different colours, all the pretty flowers, all the bees and other critters; and I will be amazed once again at the luxuriously bountiful world the Lord has created. A friend will be joining me and we will walk in tandem (socially distancing). Later, I may call on a few people who are socially isolating and have a little chat with them through their windows or open doors. Nice for shut-ins to see a real person and have a real chat. In the evening, I'll ring my mum (140 miles away, I can't visit). It seems to me that that is a worthy, honourable way to worship the Lord and to respect the Sabbath.

A "day" Biblically is evening to evening. It's Friday night to Saturday night. So Mark, you'd be okay if you worked on Saturday evening, but not if you worked on Friday evening. Not sure how time zones apply. Would that be Friday eve to Sat eve in Jerusalem time? In which case, it's GMT + 3 (ie it's now 10.30am Sunday, Jerusalem time, 7.30am GMT, or 8.30 British Summer Time; and 12.30 am (half past midnight) Sunday, Pacific Time. Perhaps observing the Sabbath on Saturday on Jerusalem time would be going a bit too far, would be a bit "religious"? -- though for those on PT it would equate quite reasonably to a "midnight to midnight" set up.

Above post continues: If you would prefer from a Jewish background, try this, same laws, slightly different order, which expands rather more about each Law (from https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/). You can also google "laws of Noah" and bring up your own references. Could you point out which one of these (the post above, and this one below) reflects your view that Noah observed the Sabbath? Maybe there is a verse in Genesis that says this explicitly? I can't recall one, off-hand, but it's a while since I read the story of Noah, and NT commentary on him.

I wonder, Waxit, if you are aware of what's known as the Noahide laws, or the seven laws of Noah? From Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

Getting easier as I read more. Mostly dispensed with the very long sentences. Reporting fairly unemotionally on the unimaginable horror that was Crakow at the time. It's the sentence structure that conveys the horror, the confusion, the hopes and the fragility.

I've just started reading Schindler's Ark (the book upon which the hit movie Schindler's List is based, and now re-released under that title). The author, Thomas Keneally, is a novelist by trade. He has collected many accounts of Schindler from Jewish survivors and other sources, and put this book together in novel-style, though he is at pains to point out that only the dialogue is fictional, and that that follows known patterns or summarises known conversations. It's what's known as a "non-fiction novel" and the author won the Booker Prize for it. We all know the story. I thought the book might be more pacey. It's not at all pacey. Some sentences are short, graphic. Others are long, covering five or six or eight or more lines, quite convoluted, lots of clauses and subclauses, asides, details: you have to read twice if not more to get the sense of the sentence. Keneally is anxious to sketch out this man Schindler, to show the readers his complexity; and to show the slow, inexorable, degradation of the Jewish population of Crakow. And, indeed, the slow, inexorable, degradation of the German population, to think that such treatment of other human beings is acceptable. I believe that's what the author intended. So far, I've read four chapters; it's taking time. As it happens, I've visited Crakow [Krakow]. I can picture some of the locations. I know the official view of the current population; in fact, they claim to treasure the Jewish population now, by way of apology, and there's a nice Jewish centre. But the populace has changed its mind once, from companionable living together in a thriving community, to rabid hatred and mass murder; and now they treasure this population group? I wonder. I wonder at myself - what would it take for me to behave like that? Would I be sucked in (I was sucked in by one organisation that we all know)? Or would I take a stand against? Such thoughts come from a slower-moving piece of literature. https://www.amazon.com/Schindlers-List/dp/B00NBELTP2/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1VFRMYE62F86Z&dchild=1&keywords=schindlers+ark&qid=1587823061&s=books&sprefix=schindlers+ar%2Caps%2C223&sr=1-13

Good post, Modgellan.

Waxit has certainly made life interesting these past few days. I can't think of another time when the entire Café was busy throwing buns at one person - not even Mike, with his rather unusual ideas. When coming from our many varied perspectives, we all spoke with one voice and decried Waxit. I wish him well, and if he has other input on other topics - get posting!

Heh, I recall when in-rez I wandered into Plurality Palace (a give-away location, for those who haven't been to HQ). There were some books on a shelf and (being a prolific and avid reader of just about anything) I sat down and started flipping through one. No idea what the book was about (a novel, perhaps?) but my priggish Corps sisters came in, saw me, and threatened to report me to the Corps Coordinator if I didn't stop immediately and come outside. She would have done, too, and been commended for doing so. I surrendered my guilty pleasure, complied, and went with her. Ohhh - petty minds.

To be honest, I still find it hard to settle down to read the Bible, and for a long time after my exit, all I could read was condemnation. When I do settle to read or study, I really enjoy it and am surprised constantly at all the wonderful gems there are. So much was withheld from us - we were given a diet and kept so busy that it was hard to find time to look at non-SNS or non-Corps or other non-class stuff unless it was the basis for the current rant. One of the best ways of getting back into reading the Bible was to pick up The Message, with its wildly different terminology. Really makes you look twice. Now, for preference, I use Holman Christian Standard Bible, which is in good, modern English and seems to convey accurately (according to what I now understand) the intention behind the words; I also look at many other versions.

Waxit, please stop being so insulting. Particularly towards me (is that because you know me?). And do NOT attribute things to me that I haven't said. There is one VPW worshipper between you and me, AND IT ISN'T, AND NEVER HAS BEEN, ME! You may think you are not a VPW-worshipper, and you do speak against his behaviour (quite rightly) but (together with an overlay of other things you have read later) you continue to : refer to, quote, use, and otherwise adhere to, many of the things he taught in PFAL, in a way that sounds, whether you mean it or not, like a VPW-worshipper. .

How sinful of you, T-Bone, to read those! Without having been properly instructed by VPW!!!

Waxit, I am not unduly influencing anybody here - as if!!! And, as I said, I am firm in my belief that if the obvious is incorrect, the less obvious is suspect. I'm not saying anything about your spelling, though I'm sure you do know better. "Realiability" better. And BTW, you still misspelled Allan's name!!!

Some people, present company excepted, could spend some time learning basic grammar and spelling. That would significantly improve their thinking ability. Completely agree that reading "classic" literature, or other older material, requires more "thinking" ability, and the ability to hold a thought for more than the nanosecond needed for pulp fiction. Some older material, indeed, is very densely written, and difficult to understand when it goes on for several lines; yet amazingly, it's grammatically written despite its many clauses. But wait! If something is written with long sentences and some parts of the same literature are written with short sentences, that gives the reader the opportunity to think, "What other thought is the author trying to convey here?"

Waxit, not overly impressed with your ability to see, understand and learn. You said: Well, you quoted the post from the person you are replying to. And if you look carefully, at the quote you posted, it's headed with his "handle" and with the slightest amount of attention, you will see he is called ALLAN - not Alan. Indeed, I know you've known this man for - gosh, it must be 30 years. And he's posted on this very thread several times. You say you do all this study "because [you] love people." One of the fundamentals to demonstrate that you love people is to get their name right. Something I carry away from TWI is: if people can't get the obvious correct, they surely are not reliable in what they say about what's less obvious.

Absolutely, on both points. We didn't acquire "an in-depth understanding and spiritual awareness" (and words added later "of the Word" => "an in-depth understanding and spiritual awareness of the Word") we acquired an in-depth MISunderstanding and spiritual DULLNESS. Never mind "iron sharpeneth iron" and those constant reproof sessions; and "fear is sand in the machinery of life" - sanding is a way of quickly dulling a sharp blade, and the in rez Corps were certainly put into fear by constant reproof and correction sessions pointing out minor faults (and especially where those "faults" were a query about a leadership decision).

Now you're winding Waxit up, Waysider.

After so many shocking revelations of sexual assaults in church settings - priests assaulting choirboys, female congregation members, and such like - well. When news of such assaults really started to come forth a decade or more ago, I recall thinking, "Wow, that's dreadful, it would never happen in TWI, such a Godly organisation, it would be stamped on immediately and the perpetrators thrown out." (You have to remember, Martindale's homo purges had taken place while I was in rez.) Ho ho, what a blind fool I was! I had no idea that sexual assault started at the top in TWI and had been going on since the beginning. At least in the UK, all churches, schools, etc now have Safeguarding policies and those in positions of responsibility or influence over or contact with any vulnerable members of the group (congregation, scholars, etc) are subject to criminal records clearance - this is not just whether they have a criminal conviction, but also includes whether there have been serious suspicions about someone but insufficient evidence to support a criminal conviction. Churches are combing old records to see if there are historical records that have been swept under the carpet. This is very good for both church/school leadership PoV and also for the vulnerable groups so protected. Certainly in the Family Corps, all leadership there would be vetted now. Not at HQ particularly, except for those involved with children's groups. I wonder if TWI does have a Safeguarding policy - and if so, how effective it really is. But even so, I don't know that that would protect adult females, who are supposed to be able to make decisions for themselves. Unfortunately the adult women were made vulnerable by faulty teaching and much other abuse. And of course, no women managed to report it to police or even, effectively, to any leader in TWI.

The lockbox concept itself was abusive. Sure, some things should be kept confidential, covered over, not bandied about openly. It's right to be discreet, if something has been told in confidence. And sometimes, it's right to break the confidence, if keeping it may cause harm to others. But many, most, things should be open, should be able to be discussed. VPW introduced this idea of "lockbox" even between spouses, not so that men could hide secrets from wives, or vice versa, but so that he himself, VPW, could hide his assaults on women and say that it was "lockbox" between him and another man's wife, that the other man didn't need to know about. And that - is evil.