Twinky

I live in the UK and even I managed to see a TV doco about all this. So it's well "open knowledge." And no, I don't believe Carmen has been charged. Or even horse-whipped.

Thanks, Rocky. One nasty PoS beats up another even nastier PoS. I note VB's attacker was himself a molester of underage kids. But he says VB deserved it and VB is a master manipulator. Wow. No surprises there, though. Not a great loss to society, these two.

Can't open the link, what does it say? Obviously that VB was attacked - by whom, how badly? Not that I have a lot of sympathy, though he shouldn't have been attacked.

You might like this book, Rocky. It's by the so-called Vicar of Baghdad about his work of reconciliation in the community there. The book was given to me yesterday by an unbeliever friend - he'd read it and found it fascinating, which is quite something for him, being as he only read books on military history. https://www.amazon.com/Father-Forgive-Reflections-Andrew-White/dp/0857212923 Andrew White's "Reflections on Peacemaking." Available on Kindle, shows US$11, but possibly a different price if you order from a US internet address.

On a purely personal basis, after TWI dumped me and I fell deep into in a huge hole of despair, I was living in another country. I didn't feel at home in my own country and not among my own family. I didn't feel at home or comfortable anywhere. But I did feel a huge need to "belong" somewhere, and specifically to my new country. So I applied for naturalisation and now have dual nationality. I am not sure whether the naturalisation helped, because I came back to my original country a couple of years afterwards. I remain keenly interested in my second country even though I don't live there now; I visit frequently; family matters keep me here now but maybe at some time in the future...? I feel I "belong" in my church community. Both here and in the other country. When I visit the other country I go to a church there, St C's, which is so like St A's that I attend here that it's a real home from home. If I'd know about St C's I might never have left. Ha ha. If we knew what the future held, would we still want it? I think my immediate future holds - a cup of tea. And maybe a piece of cake.

I checked out the website for the author of the book you suggest, Rocky. She's a "bright young thing" and I noticed her video of people dancing, playing together, and generally looking as though they were having a good time. I'd just make the point that it's ever so easy to feel lonely in a big crowd where you feel you ought to be having fun … but somehow, the fun has passed you by. It seems to me that the best way to "belong" is to participate in something you're interested in and to give of yourself, which is harder than it seems. Forget yourself, and think about the other participants, or the activity itself. And enjoy, too. Enjoy "belonging."

We’re social animals. We’re not built to live alone, but in relationship with one another. A rather famous book tells us “It is not good for [man] to be alone.” I’ve been pondering “relationships” for some while now. We all have relationship, ideally across several groups. Doesn’t matter who you are, or what you do: there are few of us that have no relationships. Maybe it’s a church. Maybe it’s the model railway club. Maybe it’s your mates as you enjoy a drink in the pub. Your relationships help you feel grounded, safe, a part of where you are: you belong. As Rocky comments, I work with vulnerable and street people. The homeless community is exactly that: a community. Like any other community, it has sub-branches. This particularly struck me last Saturday night, talking with a woman who’d settled into a doorway. She wouldn’t go into the covered car park where homeless people often stay – “They’re dirty people down there.” We visited that group of people too. There were five of them, smoking heroin and doing other drugs. A very weird bunch. But a definite “community” and supportive of each other. Sometimes, relationships aren’t helpful. The drug-taking (or drinking, or whatever) people that we saw – it’s hard to leave for those who want to be clean, to start afresh. They have to leave that “support” group and take steps into a world that they left because it was painful or frightening. And that world doesn’t really want them because it sees them as a problem. They don’t “belong” in the non-druggie world. I don’t know if Rocky started this thread because of the Charles Manson thread, where we discussed reintegration into society after many years in prison. Ex-prisoners often have a huge problem reintegrating. By getting incarcerated, they cease to “belong” to the “non-con” world, and generally prison doesn’t help people address the cause of their offending and rehabilitate them to a more “normal” (?) world. They don’t belong there; they don’t feel safe. Some reoffend because they like being in jail. They feel safe. They feel they’re in a community where they belong. In the UK now, there’s a push to remove all custodial sentences of less than 12 months, because of the realisation of the huge breaking of support bonds, relationships, within the “non-con” world. Better to keep people in their existing relationships – better from so many points of view, but not least, to help people not re-offend. (It doesn’t mean offenders aren’t punished; just that they don’t go to prison – probation, community service orders, requirements to undertake courses like anger management etc, reparation of various types) (and obviously, not for very serious offences.)

I'm sorry about that, Pamdalarryum. Great example of "more harmony in the home." TWI counselling, ha ha ha. I suppose the only decent thing out of it was that the Corpsman married your wife; it wasn't the usual "date and switch" where a marriage was broken up and both were left hanging. Very difficult for you when it came to looking after the two children. Well done, you, for the way you've coped with it all.

Unfortunately all too true. In my voluntary work with homeless and vulnerable people, I've found two main reasons for homelessness. The main one is relationship breakdown; the second is coming out of prison. There may be an interrelationship, but we don't usually ask why they went to prison in the first place, though in some cases it's because of violence, quite possibly towards their partner or wider family. Younger homeless people might be there because of family breakdown. Then they might turn to drugs to fund their unhappy lifestyle and they get a free bed and board at public expense. When people are released, the problems that put them in prison in the first place haven't been magically healed but rather are considerably exacerbated, not to mention the arrested emotional development that most ex-prisoners sustain. I suppose it all comes down to relationship breakdown really. I don't know why Manson committed his crimes, what his background was. I don't know why the young women joined him as partners in crime. I don't know why Leslie VH's background made her vulnerable to joining his murderous bunch. His little cult. Why she let him twist her mind to commit heinous crimes. I do know why some of us joined a cult, how unhappy at home relationships some of us were, what family stresses there were, and what life was life for some people. We too let our minds be re-formed, and then did utterly reprehensible things and also treated non-cult people heinously. For many of us, post-leaving has been/was difficult and it was hard to recover. For some of those in long-term - what do they do but go off and start another cult, seeking the life that they knew before. Keep themselves safe in the prison of their mind. Relationships. Relationships: build good strong relationships. Help your kids, grandkids, and those around you to build decent relationships. Befriend the vulnerable and help them back into relationship with society. Okay. Lesson for the day over. Bit early in the morning (before 10am) to be pondering such deep thoughts. I will wake up properly in about half an hour. Now, where's the caffeine? (= me with morning tea)

US prison sentences are obscenely long, well, the whole prison system really, but let's not go there in this discussion. At the age of 69, to be released would be almost, if not more, horrendous for her than imprisoning her in the first place. She has no-one of her own age (at least, not "straight" people, probably knows plenty of ex-cons), no place to go, probably very little support (genuine support, not a probation service), not that much knowledge of how the world "works" to be able to fit into it; and who knows what illnesses she may have acquired in prison - mental or physical. Limited options available, of which two are homelessness and living on the street; and committing further crimes (theft, robbery) to meet whatever physical/food needs she has. It would be small wonder if (if released) she didn't commit further crimes so as to get returned to prison, the environment she knows.

Try this link instead: http://web.archive.org/web/20030215211031/http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main/aboutus.htm

I don't know anything about "military Wow" but it would obviously differ significantly from the normal WoW program, in that your time and locations are tightly controlled by someone other than TWI. I'd like to know more about the program. Did anyone on it get to spend time off base with other believers in the countries they were stationed in (f such people existed) or with locals (to witness to)? (I suspect there was very little of the latter interchange.)

Hilarious! Yes, definitely expensive in Way-style finding God. Not just expensive in money terms, either. In shattered lives and relationships. Did your marriage improve, or completely fall apart?

And could have been more. Maybe a lot more. The Romans were in the habit of mass crucifixion, as a means of terrifying the locals. Quote from Wikipedia, but same information also noted on a number of other websites: We know from Gospel records that the prisoner Barabbas was released instead of Jesus. In Matt 27:16 Barabbas is called a “notorious prisoner.” In Mark 15:7, echoed in Luke 23:19, he was “in prison with the rebels who had committed murder during the insurrection” against the occupying Roman forces. John 18:40 describes him as a bandit. So it may be that there were plenty of others being made a terrifying example of, on the day of Jesus's murder, if the Romans chose to also execute some of the others involved in the insurrection (perhaps that's who some of the "malefactors" were?). A couple of dozen, as a "gentle reminder," would probably suffice to deter many people from wanting to join future rebellions. No need to mention them all, just sketch in a couple of details here and there, as in so many Biblical records. We all know that the Bible cannot, and does not at any time purport to, record every detail of every event.

How much of the journalism on this did you do, Raf? (You must have done some, you're very proud of it!) Regrettably, I can't read your (or anyone else's) stunning prose. Tell your newspaper to make itself more widely available (at least to those who'd never have an opportunity to see it otherwise).

Congratulations, that was worth the wait. Washington Post was in the same category; your newspaper beat them! Well done. Wish I could read the articles, but their website isn't available in Europe.

Soooooo..…. what's a-happenin' in 6 hrs time? At 3pm Miami time? This'd better be worth the tease, Raf!

Bread shouldn't be roll or bun. They contain yeast (leaven) which shouldn't be present.

That'd be a first.

Candles, what candles? I never heard anything about candles of any color. And I missed the bit where Jesus says, "Light a candle in remembrance of me."

Be not too quick to see everything through "western" eyes. Other cultural arrangements work differently. However, I do think parents should "pat themselves on the back" if they have managed to raise a child or children who are confident in their world and environment, children who have grown into adults who are considerate for other people and living creatures; who can contribute well to society; can reach a thought-through opinion, and voice that opinion without fear of damaging criticism; who can hold their own without feeling "put down" or taking it personally; and who can take responsibility for their own actions and their consequences. Prov 10:1 A wise son brings joy to his father, but a foolish son grief to his mother. Prov 15:30 A wise son brings joy to his father, but a foolish man despises his mother. Prov 23:24 The father of a righteous man will greatly rejoice, and he who fathers a wise son will delight in him. Prov 31:17 (of a good mother) Her sons rise up and call her blessed. Her husband also praises her: Many women are capable, but you surpass them all!  And many more proverbs besides. If parents can do that, they have succeeded in their parenting. And then it's befitting to consider what opinions their children have, and why they have those opinions; why they take the actions they do, etc. If parents have integrity and have raised their children with integrity, why should that be a problem? Those children can "bring joy" to parents as they grow in life. Parents generally hope their children will "do better" than they themselves did, so why should it be a threat when the children actually do do better? However, if parents have lost their integrity... ah well.

Thanks, DWBH and Skyrider. You remind me. It's not chocolate cake, but a delicious light fruit cake that I suspect has some interesting additions/fruit soaking liquid. Anyway, it's delicious and I think I will treat myself to a piece right now.

Leah - welcome (again). You are brave to announce yourself here. Nobody holds anything against you or your siblings; you've all always been strictly off limits. In some respects you are "nobody special" here - we all escaped with greater or lesser damage. In other respects, you are "very special," because you really have been in the heart of the madness, and thus probably have much more to overcome. I hope there are some good times that you can recall with your Mom and Dad - though I don't doubt that there were hard times too. I recall your dad used to love to display your flute-playing ability at concerts and events. Do you and your children see either of your parents? Penworks can help you a lot, and can point you to a lot of material that might be balm to your soul (and your husband's). The book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" was like lifting the lid of TWI for me - I was in residence early 90s right after the "fog years," when things were tightening up - and I think things got worse after that. I thought the authors might have been TWI-escapees, but there isn't any connection at all. Learn to like yourself. To love yourself. Welcome to becoming YOU!

Thanks, Raf. Had a really great day.

Thanks, Waysider. What I'd like to do. Hmm. After some pondering, I think I'll say: Stay alive, and be thankful. Certainly got no plans to "retire" or stop working just yet.