Twinky

That's why a lot of us old-timers continue to hang around here - to help newbies. It takes a very long time to fully recover - if one ever does recover - - let's say, till the pain of it becomes less. As time passes, more personal horrors sneak up into the consciousness and have to be dealt with. Stick around - or come back when you're ready, share your latest horror memory. We understand. We know the manipulation and mind-control you were subject to.

We're never going to agree about priestly celibacy or otherwise, Oldies, but I will definitely agree with you about the above. Peace!

Oldies, it's not a variation between RC and Prot interpretations - what I quoted is straight Biblical verses. In English, of course, but I'm afraid I can't show it you in "the original." If one wants to look at traditions and interpretations, then Jewish and rabbinical traditions would be more appropriate. And rabbis are not only expected to be married, but to have lots of children. As were leaders in the early Christian church; re-read Paul's epistles on this topic - expected to be married and have well-raised kids. That's well pre-RC and pre-Prot divisions. In fact, here's the story of Zechariah for you, from Luke 1. It's clear that he and his wife had been trying for years for children and it was only on this occasion that they were successful. In the days of King Herod of Judea, there was a priest of Abijah’s division named Zechariah. His wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 Both were righteous in God’s sight, living without blame† according to all the commands and requirements of the Lord. 7 But they had no children because Elizabeth could not conceive, and both of them were well along in years. 8 When his division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9 it happened that he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to enter the sanctuary of the Lord and burn incense. 10 At the hour of incense the whole assembly of the people was praying outside. 11 An angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was terrified and overcome with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will name him John.

Why would "he" have to pay for any abortions? Might he have caused the event requiring the abortion ? Does he mean, he did not want TWI to pay for any more abortions? Would be a first, for TWI to accept responsibility for meeting someone's (?)needs(?). Obviously, from your post, there was no hint of "don't do it because pre-marital sex is not appropriate for unmarried people" or, "God says no, to sex before marriage." (Doubt anyone would have paid him any attention on that, anyway, LOL.) (Not even going to discuss the question of abortion.)

Oldies, what weight the traditions of men? Jesus said (Matt 15, also in Mark): 15 Then Jesus was approached by Pharisees and scribes from Jerusalem, who asked,† 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat.” 3 He answered them, “Why do you break God’s commandment because of your tradition? 4 For God said: Honor your father and your mother; and, Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death. 5 But you say, ‘Whoever tells his father or mother, “Whatever benefit you might have received from me is a gift committed to the temple,” 6 he does not have to honor his father.’† In this way, you have nullified the word of God† because of your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you when he said: 8 This people† honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 9 They worship me in vain, teaching as doctrines human commands.” And, of course, it's not limited to traditions such as the giving of "gifts of money" to the temple - what about the gift of one's own body to the church. If you prefer what Paul might have to say: Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Rocky, read the Barnhardt article. Then you're better placed to comment. However, to make it easier for you and others, here's what's said in that article. I have to say the tone is rather rabid and she seems to be as "out there" as a certain VPW. Celibate doesn't mean what she says. Unmarried is unmarried. Celibate is celibate; means not engaging in sexual intercourse (which, if one were unmarried, might well be the case). The two words are not interchangeable, never have been. "Continent" (not a land area!) means in this context control of bladder and bowels. Possibly extendable to control of ejaculate; but note, control as a part of normal sexual intercourse. There is this on Wikipedia. and article continues Of course, it doesn't stop the RC church using its own version of Wayspeak to define terms as it wishes, regardless of what the clear, non-jargon, meaning of that term is.

Wherever does this nutty person get this stuff from? (1) only St John is a virgin? Missed that chapter and verse. (2) "when the Apostles were ordained priests and bishops ..., every one of them who had living wives became immediately, permanently CONTINENT" - that is, by this person's definition, abstaining from sexual activity within marriage. How's that supposed to fit with 1 Cor 7? There you have it. To avoid sexual immorality, have a spouse and do what spouses are supposed to do. Don't not get married, and don't not have sexual activity within the marriage. A wife is supposed to be a helper for her husband (y'all know that from Genesis 1!!), not a distraction. And one thing she can help him with is his God-given sexual desires. And how's abstinence fit with Titus 1? If the elder/church leader abstains from sexual activity, he isn't "blameless" - he's defying the command of the Lord as set out above in 1 Cor 7. Some versions say blameless; no doubt you'll agree that above reproach = blameless. So again, the overseer is to be blameless (see previous point) and self-controlled (so he's not going to be overly- or underly- demanding concerning sexual activity. He needs to be self-controlled enough to DO the act (to please his wife) even if he doesn't necessarily want to, for himself. There's a whole list of things that said overseer should be fulfilling - and "continence" is not one of those things. Paul knew perfectly well how to discuss sexual matters and marital relations. If he meant, "be sexually abstinent" he would have said so. But he didn't. And so far as I recall, Jesus didn't discuss it at all. The only sexual matter that I can recall him discussing is adultery (which he endorses is wrong) - he doesn't discuss or even consider "continence" or sexual abstinence of any kind. Nor (for completeness) does he discuss homosexuality, prostitution or other like matters. And (I feel I shouldn't really need to say this, but... The very first command to human beings. Go, and make more people. Get out there and HAVE SEXUAL RELATIONS with each other, with that person who is your wife, your closest, deepest helper. And nothing that I can think of within the Bible countermands that, but rather reinforces sexual relations between spouses as "status normal."

Etymology (= where it comes from, how it's built up) of the word Mortify: late 14c., mortifien, "to kill, destroy the life of," from Old French mortefiier "destroy, overwhelm, punish," from Late Latin mortificare "cause death, kill, put to death," literally "make dead," from mortificus "producing death," from Latin mors (genitive mortis) "death" (from PIE root *mer- "to rub away, harm," also "to die" and forming words referring to death and to beings subject to death) + combining form of facere "to make, to do" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put"). Religious sense of "subdue the flesh by abstinence and discipline" is attested from early 15c. Sense of "humiliate, chagrin, vex" is recorded by 1690s (compare mortification). Related: Mortified; mortifying. Note the "root words" Mer- and Dhe- or Facere, and how these have developed and compounded to make one word over millennia; there are quite a number of steps to get to the word we use today. (See, you can do word studies in English, too!). The kids' word "deadify" sums up "mortify" exactly. If you'd known that the "mort" or "mer" part meant, or had connotations of, Death, you'd've understood this right from the beginning. Perhaps you did, but chose to accept someone else's explanation (more fool you!). If you know any French, you'll recognise the word "mort" meaning dead. Or if you know any Spanish, you'll recognise the word "muerto" meaning dead. French and Spanish are more directly from Latin than English is, so these are also worthwhile languages to study (along with "improve your English"). If you find a new word in the English language, it's always worthwhile checking its etymology and this will definitely help you expand your vocabulary. You will see one, two or maybe more "root words" (as above) and you will then begin to be able to recognise these "roots" in other words. If you aren't willing to put this effort into understanding your native tongue - don't waste anybody's time showing off your puffed-up ego in expounding on ancient Greek words.

The video goes on particularly about homosexual priests raping altar boys. It's not just boys: girls too have been subject to highly inappropriate behaviour. Girls too have a right to be heard. The RC church has brought a lot of this upon itself with the very stupid and unbiblical edict that priests cannot be married. I am certain that if the young (male) priests had a healthy sexual outlet (with their wives) there would have been less abuse of vulnerable children of either sex. Unlikely to be any changes there, current pope is dead against relaxing this man-made rule. I honestly find it near unbelievable that the RC church (along with other churches, Anglican for example) have tolerated and covered this up for decades. Such an utter lack of integrity in the overseers (bishops, and what have you), and disdain for the victims. I feel rather sorry for hardworking decent priests who do their best to live with integrity and to live a life that honours God. I foresee swivelly eyes wondering, "What about you, then? Who did you abuse?" Heh, suppose it bankrupted the church, and the Vatican had to be sold and converted to an orphanage. LOL. But that's not going to happen. It's just not going to happen.

Good article; thanks for posting. See the recommendations for looking at several English versions (or if you're a non-native English speaker, perhaps in your mother tongue instead or as well). I'd like to suggest that people UNDERSTAND ENGLISH WELL. That means: having a good vocabulary - the wider your vocabulary, the more you will pick up nuances. Have a good understanding of grammar - the more you understand that, the better will be your understanding of the "actual" and the hypothetical, How many tenses in English do you know the names of, for describing past events? Or describing future events? (Hint: there's more than one of each!) What about the subjunctive? It was perfectly obvious to me right from sess.1 of PFAL that VPW didn't understand English grammar - I "forgave" him that, thinking that the entirety of the video teaching was perhaps more important to understand. But I later heard those same mistakes made by purported "teachers" and ultimately at twig level. I say: if you don't understand your native language, your mother tongue, and its nuances - how the heck do you think you understand a foreign language, and an ancient one at that, with all its nuances? Think of the differences in meaning between "I walk down the street" and "I am walking down the street." "I walked down the street" compared with "I have walked down the street" and "I was walking down the street" "I will walk down the street" and "I shall walk down the street" and "I will be walking down the street" and "I shall be walking down the street." "I may walk down the street" and "I may be walking down the street." "I may have been walking down the street" and "I could have been walking down the street." These are all legitimate tenses, some mean more or less the same depending on context, but others have big differences in meaning. You probably understand the differences without being able to articulate them clearly. You may know the names of some of the tenses, or you may not. The choice of auxiliary verb can make a big difference too. There are many other tenses in the English language. Other languages have different tenses that are not directly equivalent to those of the English language. That's before we get into things like word order, and different moods - are the words you read meant to be taken at face value, are they ironical or humorous, do they in fact mean the opposite of what they say? And spelling. And words that have more than one meaning in English, of which there are several examples in the Bible. And words that look a lot like another, but are widely divergent in meaning ("false friends," these are sometimes called). Seriously, folks, improve your knowledge of English and you will improve your understanding of not just the Bible but a whole host of other things as well. Those scholars and academicians who have worked on Bible translations have a wide vocabulary and a wide understanding of grammar in English and the other language(s). That's why they were chosen for the task. Undoubtedly there were disagreements, or at least discussions, over the choice of English words or phrases to express Greek words or phrases, according to the translators' own vocabularies and understandings. You can best respect their efforts by improving your own ability to comprehend.

Praying for you, Mark. The girlies enjoyed the petting, but gave you a shirty look. You might have been trying to eat them. That's them all over!

What came to mind this morning was how personal God is. I've always enjoyed my cup of tea (oh, how British!); coffee isn't something I enjoy much. When I was in rez, decent tea was hard to get. Sure, there were little Lipton tea bags available at HQ but the contents were terrible, barely tea at all, awful stuff. And yet, it wasn't till I was preparing to leave and return overseas that I realised I was giving away decent tea bags, half a large boxful, too, my then-favourite brand. Somehow, there were always enough of these after the first couple of months when I was settling in. International visitors would sometimes come, bringing tea, which would make its way to me. I never "prayed about" this and it never occurred to me to ask anybody; it was God's special treat for me. J, my Corps bro, loved Pringles (something that he couldn't afford to buy on the meagre personal allowance). He always had a drum of these - his friends and spiritual partners would bring them. C, my Corps sister, loved shoes. People would bring her new pairs. Right up to our graduation, when she'd chosen her dress, she needed shoes. And a pair was delivered by post to her the day before graduation. I would have hated the Pringles and the shoes. Those people would have hated the tea. I just love the personal way our individual whims were met, not because we needed them, but because we have a God who loves to give, to bless, to see that we're enjoying life. Of course, since then, there have been many individual blessings, things that "tickle me pink," or perfectly meet my needs; but to others those things are … just okay, nothing to get excited about. But I'm sure God gives them things that tickle them pink, too.

Remember this? "The greatest leader is the greatest servant." VPW and LCM used to say they were "serving" us by teaching us - all those hours they spent "researching" so as to come up with a teaching on Sunday and for Corps meetings. Therefore, we should "serve" them by tending to those things that they didn't have time to do. In "normal" life, how many church ministers need to have heaps of unpaid people cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? None that I know of! And if they did have someone to do these things, they'd be sure to pay them. Likewise, in "normal" life, how many academics - uni professors, heads of depts, and the like - need to have heaps of unpaid people (= the very students they are teaching) cleaning their homes, tending their gardens, painting their property, cooking their food, etc? Again, none that I know of! Oh wait. I know one retired professor did have one student who occasionally looked after his garden, when his studies didn't get in the way - and the prof paid the student very well for doing so, too.

Wow, this guy's really upfront about his aims. If you send him a mere Aus$30, he'll give you a personal prophecy. Or for a mere Aus$25, you can see a picture of your personal angel, learn the angel's name, and get a message from that angel. His personal goal is this (lifted from his facebook page)

"John Lynn brings half a century of Bible teaching experience..." Well, yeah, he's been teaching something purporting to be Bible teaching, and for half a century - but that doesn't make it true, accurate, honest or (actually) even Biblical. Take a verse or two out of context and build a doctrine on it... everybody should try it. Why not? There's enough fools out there.

And another thing. I wear contact lenses. As any lens wearer can attest, these amazing things also have a life of their own. They appear to be able to jump off the finger that's trying to insert the lens into the eye. And they frequently turn up in very odd places. (Once I lost one - at WiB - and it turned up in another room - how did that happen???) Anyway, there are many times when I've dropped a lens and then I fumble around on the table, then on my clothes, then the chair, then the carpet. Fingertip searches (you can't see the pesky things!) in increasingly wide circles. After 10 or 15 mins of this, I come to my senses and pray: "Okay, Dad, here's your dorky daughter, and I dropped the lens again, so please show me where it is." And almost immediately afterwards I find it - invariably in some place I thought I'd looked. How does this work? Heck, I don't know. I just say, "Thanks, Dad, for showing me. You're amazing. Now let's go and enjoy the day together." And we do. I love these everyday miracles.

Okay, I'll bite, since I got a specific mention in the lead-in thread. On Sunday morning I was in my little church and we were singing a song in which there's a line about Jesus being the Healer. I occasionally suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome (aka RSI) and I must have done something earlier in the week that strained my wrist. My wrist had ached badly since about Thursday, worse at night, and wakes me with the severe discomfort. So I'm singing this song and suddenly pay attention to the words and think, "Why am I singing this - I need healing - right now," look at my arm and wrist as if I'd never seen either before, and think, "That's enough. I claim this healing. Now!" Right then, the song finished, the service moved on - and I later realised that since then, there's been no more pain in my wrist since that moment. No feeling of heat, things slipping into place, or any other sensation. Just - no sensation. No pain. All functioning as perfectly as should be.

Annio, it's brave of you to write what you have. TWI didn't start it, but they surely perfected the sexual abuse - and all the baggage that goes with it. Including the brave admission that it was turning you into an abuser, too. Do what you need to do, to get rid of that baggage. It's okay to be angry. Or sad. Or whatever it takes. We understand. I'm going to PM you.

Some good things have happened to me in my life. Some very bad things, too. And some very difficult things. I've had several jobs, lots of different types of training. I think everything in my life has been aimed at NOW, to make me who I am and what I am. I am more relaxed, more happy, or perhaps content, in my skin than I have ever been. I think that's about acceptance of what has been, what is now, and what may come in the future. From my PoV, I have gained much confidence that God is with me in all things, and will always be with me. (Non-Christians will have a different PoV and might talk about self-acceptance or some such, well, that's their PoV.) Everything is temporary, and I look forward with interest to the future (both immediate and ultra-long-term). Those things that were bad, or difficult, become retrospectively good things. (I suppose the "good things" change in value too, but I prefer to keep them in the "good" category.)

Some thoughtful posts from Socks (his best ever, I think). And then the usual spats from the usual suspects. Kinda like sitting by a peaceful riverbank contemplating life and the joys of nature, and turning round to find a street brawl going on behind you. Hardly surprising that people are put off coming here. There are other riversides to sit beside. Not without the occasional brawl, but these get settled quickly and don't keep festering, to distract continually.

Yep. Glad to see it back. Only just realised. Missed y'all.

Oh Kathy, we're contemporaries; you understand the LCM rants. In rez, it was even worse, not just Corps Night, but lunchtime "sharings" to several hundred captives, that would go on for a couple of hours too, and once in a while at breakfast (very small audience), about how he'd "run off" some more homos. I was on Bev Crew for the advanced class you mention. God, what a mad time the whole of being in rez was!

As to homosexuals: there are several "gay friendly" churches in this city, including the principal church of the city. In my volunteer work as a Street Pastor, I have visited (= called by) a well-known gay pub and struck up many conversations with young males. You would not believe the treatment that has been meted out to them by different churches: beatings, cold baths, exorcisms, endless Bible studies, and finally banning. Some of these men know a lot of Bible verses; they've tried hard not to be homosexual but - but they just fancy men. Some even say, "I know it's wrong." This sort of treatment of these men by their churches is shameful and so lacking in compassion that I'm badly embarrassed. My response now is: "I'm glad you've found someone to love." And I've told some, "Did you know God loves you? Really loves you?" For some, it's clear that this is one message they've never heard from their churches.

Oh Kathy, if you had heard LCM's rants on Corps Night...! It'd be a three-hour session, with the majority being a scream-fest from His Horribleness around the topic of homosexuals, their disgusting deviant practices, their deceptions and manipulations, their entering "caring professions" simply to pull the wool over our eyes that they might be nice people, but actually, they're vile, disgusting, schemers, etc, etc, etc. The first time, I thought, wow, there must be a problem, I'd never have thought that. Second time: there really is a problem. Third time: This is going a bit far. Fourth and subsequent CNs: He's kinda upset about this, but off the rails. And then the purges started, months of males allegedly caught in the act, or who'd confessed, or left of their own volition because they were that way oriented. Oh yes. He definitely went on (and on, and on) about homosexuals using "caring professions" as cover, not out of any true sense of care. And all this at a time when his wife had left him to go and live with Rosalie Rivenbark, in a sexual relationship. So you know these "teachings" were his rage, frustration, humiliation, whatever, at his wife's (and Rosalie's) behaviour. All this at a time, too, when he'd been bonking many other women than Donna - other men's wives, single women, he didn't care. I can't speak for what VPW may have taught. I do know, most certainly, what LCM taught. And did.

After sexual horrors now exposed in the RC church, in the Anglican church and likely other places, I can tell you that the Anglican church (at least) has a very obvious safeguarding policy, with a parish safeguarding officer and a very strong diocesian oversight. Copies of the safeguarding policy are available at various locations in churches (often posted on the notice board, sometimes additionally in a private place like the toilets, where a putative victim could review in private) with a list of people to whom any offensive behaviour could be reported. And there is careful vetting of the people on the safeguarding team, to make sure they themselves are not abusers. I don't know if CFFM has any kind of safeguarding policy. I'm d@mn certain TWI doesn't. Nothing "real" anyway - not beyond anything legally required, like a notice, but not an actual reporting chain.