Twinky

Pity them both in the article. What a lot of baggage to have to carry.

And Raf. I think I'd agree with you to some extent about "God-breathed," though for different reasons. Some of the Bible is (without limitation of categories) record keeping; some is collections of sayings or common sense or wisdom; some is history; and some is visionary. The last category might be "God-breathed" or God-inspired. These threads intertwine throughout all the books of the Bible. I do not believe every word is "God-breathed." I do think that the principal ideas that the words convey are (often) Godly, when they aren't being factual reportage.

Not sure if this was aimed only at Chockfull or at all the posters on this thread. I'm amused (and sorrowful) at the whole lot of these recent threads. They are actually very interesting. I am well impressed by some of the posts here, by the discussion in general. T-Bone, So_crates and Chockfull in particular all make good points, good theological points. I hope some might think my own contributions worthwhile too. It's not VPW-bashing - nor is it Mike-bashing. It is idea- and heresy-bashing. Doctrinal would be a good place for this thread.

Prov 20:11, in four versions: King James Version Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. Darby Bible Translation Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right. World English Bible Even a child makes himself known by his doings, whether his work is pure, and whether it is right. Young's Literal Translation Even by his actions a youth maketh himself known, Whether his work be pure or upright. Even a child... how much more an adult, no matter how much the adult dissembles. Eventually his real self will "out." It's one's own actions that makes one's own heart known. It's obvious; people can see what one does. It's one's "doings" that are the fruit in someone's life, the fruit and product of all that he believes in his heart.

This is a bit long, sorry, but the rebellion of Korah is referenced elsewhere in this thread, and links in well with the story of Balaam. Some comments in blue in the text, some application comments at the very end. Numbers 16 (KJV) 16 Now Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men: 2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown: 3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord? [So, Korah, who had been anointed as chief of the Levites, inciting rebellion. He had a position of leadership and authority – but rebelled against The Establishment (Moses and Aaron) and thought he wanted a share of the action too. Claimed Moses and Aaron were too big for their boots. Claimed all the congregation was holy, when it was very clear they weren’t. Korah incited other leaders and got them to follow him.] 4 And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face: 5 And he spake unto Korah and unto all his company, saying, Even to morrow the Lord will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him. 6 This do; Take you censers, Korah, and all his company; 7 And put fire therein, and put incense in them before the Lord to morrow: and it shall be that the man whom the Lord doth choose, he shall be holy: ye take too much upon you, ye sons of Levi. [Moses reminds them that it’s the Lord’s choice who serves Him – not his, Moses’s choice.] 8 And Moses said unto Korah, Hear, I pray you, ye sons of Levi: 9 Seemeth it but a small thing unto you, that the God of Israel hath separated you from the congregation of Israel, to bring you near to himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the Lord, and to stand before the congregation to minister unto them? 10 And he hath brought thee near to him, and all thy brethren the sons of Levi with thee: and seek ye the priesthood also? 11 For which cause both thou and all thy company are gathered together against the Lord: and what is Aaron, that ye murmur against him? [Moses reminds them that they already have a special role to play. Why should they overreach and demand even more? Demand the role assigned to others? Korah and the others are looking enviously at what they perceive the others have – status, position, power, authority. It’s what Korah lusts after: the control of the fledgling nation of Israel, the control of God’s chosen people.] 12 And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab: which said, We will not come up: 13 Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us? 14 Moreover thou hast not brought us into a land that floweth with milk and honey, or given us inheritance of fields and vineyards: wilt thou put out the eyes of these men? we will not come up. [Those who listened to Korah were caught up in his rebelliousness, resented Moses’s position and authority, and wanted their own fiefdoms. Dathan and Abiram weren’t Levites, but were from other tribes. They were leaders in their own right, but didn’t have special tabernacle responsibilities. But they had been led astray by those who did have tabernacle responsibilities.] 15 And Moses was very wroth, and said unto the Lord, Respect not thou their offering: I have not taken one foot from them, neither have I hurt one of them. [Moses says he has taken nothing from them. There’s an implication here that these rebels may have taken asses and other property from others.] 16 And Moses said unto Korah, Be thou and all thy company before the Lord, thou, and they, and Aaron, to morrow: 17 And take every man his censer, and put incense in them, and bring ye before the Lord every man his censer, two hundred and fifty censers; thou also, and Aaron, each of you his censer. 18 And they took every man his censer, and put fire in them, and laid incense thereon, and stood in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation with Moses and Aaron. 19 And Korah gathered all the congregation against them unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the glory of the Lord appeared unto all the congregation. [Korah gathered “all the congregation.” He was only told to gather all those who colluded in his rebellion - "all thy company." But Korah wants to make a big show of his power. Notably Moses doesn’t gather everyone. Implication is he’d rather be a bit more private about it, not make too much of a show.] 20 And the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment. [God sounds really pi$$ed off.] 22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation? [Genuine leaders, making genuine intercession.] 23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. 25 And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins. [God’s giving the congregation the opportunity to repent, not be caught up in this aspect of the spiritual battle.] 27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children. [But the rebels stood firm. Dathan and Abiram, not being Levites, weren’t at the temple, but hung back at their tents. Leaders of some sort, perhaps, but cowardly ones.] 28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. 29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me. 30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord. 31 And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. [Wow, what a display of power! Very scary!] 34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. [Everyone who saw this was scared witless.] 35 And there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense. [These are rebellious Levites, false servants who wanted the power and authority and kudos.] … 41 But on the morrow all the congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron, saying, Ye have killed the people of the Lord. [It only just happened, and already the people have forgotten, and blamed those with the real power and authority.] 42 And it came to pass, when the congregation was gathered against Moses and against Aaron, that they looked toward the tabernacle of the congregation: and, behold, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the Lord appeared. 43 And Moses and Aaron came before the tabernacle of the congregation. 44 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 45 Get you up from among this congregation, that I may consume them as in a moment. And they fell upon their faces. [Genuine leaders, making more genuine intercession.] 46 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar, and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them: for there is wrath gone out from the Lord; the plague is begun. [God deals with the people and there is a fatal plague among them] 47 And Aaron took as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people. 48 And he stood between the dead and the living; and the plague was stayed. 49 Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah. 50 And Aaron returned unto Moses unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation: and the plague was stayed. [How gruesome! The leaders of the rebellion died in horrible ways – fell into earthquake cracks, or were consumed by the very fire that they themselves had offered in their own righteousness. And those leaders had led astray many others, who themselves died in the plague.] To me, this smacks of the desire to usurp legitimate spiritual authority. VPW wanted to be a preacher-man, because he saw what power the local minister appeared to have. Having started his own ministry, he then leads others astray, incites rebellion, takes wannabe leaders and trains them up as Way Corps, and tries to take over a large number of God’s people and pervert them from God’s own way and God’s chosen ministers. The rebels wanted “their” own ministries too. Their own “splinter groups.” They, and all those that follow them, will ultimately perish. They don't enter into the "more abundant life," but into death. But God continually listens to pleas for mercy, and allows those who repent to live.

Mike, I do feel rather sorry for you. You are clearly committed to trying to ascertain God's honest truth. You have spent years of your life doing so. But you are looking in the wrong place. or in your case: 37The Father who sent Me has Himself testified about Me. You have not heard His voice at any time, and you haven't seen His form. 38You don't have His word living in you, because you don't believe the One He sent. 39You pore over PFAL because you think you have eternal life in it, yet it's the scriptures that testify about Me. 40And you are not willing to come to Me through the scriptures, so that you may have life. I can't help feel that if you studied the Scriptures, by means of different Bible versions, and some reputable commentaries (or even some disreputable ones!), you would have a wider understanding. I wonder if you have any decent Bible software tools so that you can study more easily? Can I recommend the online programs (apps) BibleHub, or Blue Letter Bible? They're both good, easy to navigate, and have a lot of research features. They're free to download. There are other programs available. You can research individual verses, themes, topics, do word studies, get historical background, access dozens of commentaries, compare different versions, and find more complex or more simple versions. In fact, by comparing different versions, you'd be surprised at how little variation there is in them, if you extract the thought that the words represent.

So_crates, he can't look any verses up. Even if they're copied into PFAL or the collaterals, they're certainly not interpreted "right where they're written" in PFAL materials. Remember, all the Bible is suspect, probably corrupt. Therefore, direct Bible quotes are all suspect and corrupt. And in any event, they're only "background."

Impossible. Unless maybe you use a spiritual sword to do the separating out of PFAL from TWI. Are you meaning to separate out the fruit of PFAL from the fruit of TWI in general, is that what you were saying? But TWI is PFAL in action. No-one else has PFAL. Therefore, no-one else can be modelling PFAL to the world. Therefore, whatever fruit there may be is fruit of PFAL as manifest as fruit of TWI. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, [and of PFAL from TWI], and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There's no shame attached to promoting a new idea. But if there is shame to be attributed, it is brought about by YOU YOURSELF, Mike, by your persistent refusal to "put out" your theory. YOU bring ridicule upon yourself firstly, by proposing your theory (which as you know has not been received with enthusiasm here) and secondly, by your refusal to respond when challenged. If your theory were so certain, surely you would have at least the basics together now? Why not, as I suggested, just take a break, get it all together, and then come back. Be prepared for some flak. You might even get some constructive criticism, pointing out holes in your theory. If VPW had bothered to submit his ideas, perhaps they would have been better and not so full of holes. You can avoid that by presenting something a bit more coherent and allowing others to point out the holes to you.

I think we should give Mike a bit of a break so that he can put his "manifesto" together. In one coherent place. (Then we can really challenge him.) Yeah. That's really going to happen.

Oh, so true!

Ah Rocky - you spoilsport!

Skyrider - you danced like that? Cute! Did ya wear the little skirt like that, too?

I had a career, which could have taken me to places of influence. Not really been able to pick that up again. Do something very different now. I had some good friends, who (amazingly) have welcomed me "back" with love in my post-Way days. I liked music and bands and whatever, mostly rock/prog rock style, but my musical interests got squashed in Waydaze. Happily now I have resumed an interest in music and am getting the musical education I missed out on in secondary school - rather different - now I sing in a choir (mostly works by Mozart, Brahms, those older composers - brilliant choirmaster, Head of the school's music dept, makes sure we know what was going on in music at the time); sing in a couple of church worship groups in "cathedral contemporary" style. In fact, sung a solo part in the abbey here, 500 in the congregation (yikes!). What else? Broke up with a nice guy that I could've been with even now - he wasn't interested in God stuff so I lost interest in him. (He's been married many years now now to the person he met after me). But I have nice male friends in my life ... and who knows where it goes from here? (smiles privately to self).

I had a career. Which wonderfully took me to another country. Which, since this thread appears to have become about cars, enabled me to buy my first car, a Ford Laser Sport. Bright red, it was (especially once I'd cut'n'polished it, brought the colour up beautifully). I liked it a lot. Like this but below the rubber door trim it was red, not grey as in the image.

Very good post, T-Bone. Very good.

Oh, what rubbish. Either it fits all or it fits none. If your whatever-it-is is really the revealed word of God, then it should be good for "OLGs," "refugees from Craig," grads, and people who have never heard of TWI. Do you know, Mike, if people do a PhD (as in "Dr W"), they have a very searching oral examination on the minutiae of the subject of their thesis? " Once you have submitted your thesis you will be invited to defend your doctorate at a ‘viva voce' (Latin for ‘by live voice') or oral examination. The thesis defence can be a daunting prospect, but many people really enjoy this experience of discussing their PhD research with genuinely interested experts. It can also be a useful networking opportunity. " https://www.vitae.ac.uk/doing-research/doing-a-doctorate/completing-your-doctorate/your-viva Your Dr W would (if he'd really done a doctorate) have had to defend his thesis (premises) before real experts. He would have to show he really knew his stuff. It's a bit more than delivering a token sermon. Now then, Mike. You will see if you care to read the link above that to some extent you are being subject to some searching and challenging questions. (I know you aren't defending a PhD but you are presenting some very controversial material.) You have to answer these challenges if you want to be taken seriously. If (as appears) you want people to throw away their Bibles, their compilations of sacred literature going back for millennia, in favour of PFAL material, you have to deal with the challenges as to why that might not be an appropriate course of action. I daren't even think about you presenting PFAL to a Jewish person, telling them that Moses is a liar or deluded or hadn't got it right, and that some cornfield preacher in Ohio is the only one who really understands God. Never mind "OLGs," "refugees from Craig," and grads.

(runs off screaming)

I honestly cannot believe that you really believe that, Mike. Whaddya mean, "Welcome"? I've already posted several things on this thread. Some of which you have responded to. For someone to receive such great revelation as to write the whole revealed word of God... at the same time behaving as that wicked man did... beggars even the ... (words fail me). Totally preposterous. You are so badly deluded, Mike.

Mike said: I don't think even VPW said that. Explicitly, at any rate. Might be implied, by requiring extensive study of collaterals rather than what everyone else refers to as "the Bible."

"The greatest secret in the world today is that the finished PFAL writings is the revealed Word of God.

That would only be the things that you yourself wrote, Mike, wouldn't it? If you were to use other people's responses without their permission, you'd be breaching their copyright. If you passed such commentary off as your own, that'd be plagiarism, as well. And you wouldn't want to be accused of being a plagiarist, would you?

Yet another distracting device. Some might think it a great ADvantage to not know other posters in person, so that the PoV can be considered outside any background knowledge. Do the facts support the argument, or does one's knowledge of the person tip the balance - either to agree or to disagree with the argument? If personal knowledge of a poster tips the balance, then what is being considered, the argument or the person? People here don't need to prove their PoV because nobody here has stated that they think the scriptures are Godbreathed or any such argument. The context is: is PFAL "Godbreathed" as you, Mike, assert?

I knew it! I knew that he'd argue about "proof." ("What kind of a proof do you want?") My only surprise is that he hasn't asked what "proof" actually means, he only asks "What kind?" as if there are at least two kinds of proof, and possibly more. Mike, surprise us all with any kind of proof. Emphasis on "proof," not on what kind.