Twinky

Mike, you ****, I told you I'm a lawyer because I don't want you to think you're dealing with a preschooler or person of no ability or English as a second language person whose words can be misunderstood. I missed nothing of your posts (unlike you missing practically everything of everyone else's). I learned to read early in life, and have learned to read what people say, very carefully. I bring my thinking and exploratory skills to the way I consider the Bible, and very definitely when considering how people handle scriptures or proclaim "the Word." That's not limited to you; I pay attention to what people say in church and in other articles I read. It's called "critical thinking." Critical doesn't mean "doing down" or "picking holes in"; it means, exercising judgment. Testing out. Which God requires us to do: "Test all things, hold fast to what is good." Verses posted earlier. However, you have misunderstood (wilfully) and use that information, self-disclosure, to say that everything I ask you is a lawyer's challenge. IT'S NOT, it's a believer's challenge and, believe it or not, done in a spirit and with a heart that invites you to think and to consider what is said. You accuse anyone who challenges you of "not seeing your heart." Perhaps you should try to see someone else's heart. Oh, delete that. Try seeing someone else. Full stop. See other people, as people striving to do their best. I haven't stormed off. Your passive-aggressiveness drives people away. (And if you look, you'll see I didn't get to put you on ignore, and have posted a few things since I said I'd put you on Ignore.) Try this. Exercise your reasoning ability that God gave you (that VPW tried to take away) and you may learn a few things. Meantime, I prefer to spend time (real time) with people who genuinely want to know God, serve Him, and explore his word and their own understanding, and who want to GROW in that understanding. Announcement: some of those people post in this very forum! Iron sharpens iron; dialoguing with people who seek a real understanding of God helps both/all. But banging one's head against a brick wall brings a headache. If one banged a sword against a wall (instead of rubbing along a sharpening iron), the result would be a dull blade. So, repeat: I prefer to spend time with people who genuinely want to know God. (This is written in very short paragraphs to make it easy for you so that you don't miss any points: you often say you've missed something or can't find time to read whole posts.)

At a time when I was thinking, I ought to give the Bible another go, try and read it - I read Acts, and thought it such a fantastic book and really wondered why I didn't see any of that passion and commitment among the people I'd known hitherto. Then, I met a WoW. He was passionate, committed, the WoW family leader of 3 or 4 others, knew a lot, showed me a lot of Bible and explained it. I got to go to branch meetings where there were a lot of other believers, all outgoing and friendly, vibrant and very passionate about God. I met Corps and interim Corps, and they really seemed to glow. These people all believed that the power displayed in Acts was available now and seemed to know God at a very personal level. I saw some amazing answers to prayers. It wasn't "stand-up-sit-down-at-the-right-time" like the boring church I'd been raised in. However, I wasn't sold on everyone's refrain, "Have you taken the class yet?" and was rather put off by that. It was many months before I dipped my toe into that water. But meeting this WoW seemed like an answer to prayer - at the time. This was mid 80s, and not in the US. There was no E-Corps formed yet, no Gartmore, so any WC around must have trained in the US. Maybe things were different from what was going on in the US.

Think I have to disagree a little with you on that, Waysider. The orange book and the white book not completely filled with inaccuracies, in fact some of the information in them is good and solid. That's because they were poached from people who understood. But throughout, the real words of truth have been so meddled with, smeared and tarnished by the thief who stole them (ie, VPW) yet who didn't understand what he'd stolen, that it's difficult to untangle truth from error - despite the purported aim of the "class." The orange book and the white book and the other PFAL books are inconsistent with each other (esp the collaterals) - in fact, the collaterals are poorly written folksy stories with no real meat. For myself, knowing what I know now, if I can't trust the man, how can I trust his words? He didn't trust the words himself !!! The only way to work out the truth from error is to ascertain what the Bible really says. If it doesn't say so, anything in PFAL is suspect. Growth occurs when one is able to look at what PFAL might purport to state, and REJECT the false premises, the lies, the contradictions against scripture. And this, Mike cannot do because, in his opinion, the Bible is merely "background." Rejection of the false and holding fast to what is good flourishes best in a heart that rejoices and is thankful to God, see earlier in the same chapter. Anyone who cares to look can see that there has been a lot of growth in the lives of many of the posters here. We have rejected the lies, we have looked for ourselves, and most do our best to align our hearts with God's heart. And that growth allows, nay demands, reaching out to help others.

Hasn't answered this, either. He just said, I'd "got his heart wrong." Blah blah blah. Poor little Mike.

He still hasn't bloody well answered this. Fudged something, yes, but answered? NO. And he never will substantively answer. But maybe it would be different if the hypothetical women were molested, or raped, by an actual king? Rather than by an alleged minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Think you mean "WordWolf," RottieGrrrl. CityGirl, belief in trinity (or not) isn't required for salvation. Don't hang your hat on it either way. I take the view that neither God, the creator of the Universe and all that is in it, and his Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord, have had 2000 years to do something about it if it were essential to their program of redemption. As neither has done anything, assume it's irrelevant, or of far less relevance than TWI made it out to be. Learn to enjoy what other Christians understand, and why they understand it. You'll find the message of Love, Grace, Forgiveness and helping others is far more important. As to lying - I always told the truth to the best of my knowledge and ability. With hindsight, one's view of the truth changes. Once, I'd've invited people to a wonderful Christian fellowship (and in the early stages, I believe that's what they were). Now, I'm sorry for any part I played in getting anyone to stay around longterm in a destructive cult. (There were enough short-term; those folk were obviously wiser than me and left quickly.) The Bible says in many places and many ways that we should not lie, and demonstrates consequences of lying. Therefore, it honors God not to lie. Those who lie - honor someone else.

Folks, I'm done with the evasion that Mike displays. I have offered him lots of space to communicate what he thinks, and asked some easy questions of him. He can't or won't answer. If he ever does, someone please tell me by PM. Meantime, I'm putting him on Ignore. When I want to bang my head against a wall, I'll do that in my own home. Over and out.

I'm done with you, Mike. I've learned to appreciate the frankness of Americans. Generally, I've found they speak as they think (Brits can go round the houses a bit). But I've never meet anyone as evasive as you are. Usually, even a lying person comes clean eventually. But you... do you know what "clean" is?

As usual, no straight answer. How hard is that, Mike? Hey, if you said something EXPLICITLY in a previous post that you think I missed, do quote it. I've asked you several discrete but pointed questions in the last few minutes. And your sole response is, "you're not on trial." No. You're just passive, and don't speak out. You're wilfully closing your eyes, closing your heart, to the hurt others have suffered.

And the "women I speak of" - now. If you learned now that any of the women I suggested had been abused historically, how would you feel now? Accept that as someone else's "right", or be outraged now? If such women were being abused now, today, would you feel differently?

So let's hear it from you, in your own words. Sexual abuse of women is wrong. Sexual abuse of women by purported ministers is wrong. Is abusive. Choose your own words, don't have to be many. You say it. You SAY it, Mike.

That looks like a good blog, Rocky.

And despite your new-found empathy, you still don't bat an eyelid. You simply don't seem to care at all about the women who were abused by your hero VPW but merely appear to accept that abuse as a "fact of life" in some way. Does it not anger you? Would it anger you if your wife, your daughter, your granddaughter, your niece or female cousin, or colleague, or other females of your close acquaintance, were treated like this? By a supposed church minister? How would you feel if these females had been abused by the local RC "father," perhaps the minister who was in charge of your local RC church? Would you think the RC minister had some sort of "right" to sexually abuse women in his congregation? As an aside, you at last appear to be accepting TWI as being a "power based human organization" - well, it certainly wasn't a Godly organization.

Too right, Penworks!

Nice, T-Bone. If our "Christian" beliefs do not enable us to connect better with the world around us, what is the point of those beliefs? We are to love God, AND we are to love fellow humans "as ourselves". We are to LOVE others. Did not Jesus love others enough to GIVE himself and to DIE for all of them, those who knew and cared for him, as well as those who've never heard of him or who reviled him? Yes? Then we are to do the same. We cannot LOVE others without engaging with them. LOVING others involves action, caring, empathy. We have to GIVE of ourselves; what we receive back through his amazing grace [ie, not "payment"] is an amazing understanding of his love for us. Acting in love is how we "grow in every way into him who is the head--Christ" (Eph 4:15). So that's why I'm interested in learning more of Mike's journey into understanding as he explores the threads at the Cafe and learns of other people's stories. How has that helped his understanding grow? How does that help him to help others in his immediate vicinity? How does empathy for others play out in his life?

That's quite a vid, Sky. And quite a confident young man. Cool as a cucumber.

Nostalgia? Over the breakup of families?? WTF??? I'd've thought "nauseated by" would have been a better description.

Strikes me your previous post is a waste of your time. You said you were going to read old threads to try to understand people, and give up posting for a while.

Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread is for you to share how your understanding is growing. Do be aware that most people haven't written "their story" in one place, but there may be many posts by a person on many threads over a long period that will give "their story". If you read all the posts by one poster, you'd get a little of "their story" but it'd take you a long time. (Rocky, whose post is immediately above this, has, I see, nearly 11,000 posts, some of which may embody his story, and other posts will be something flippant.) People are not bitter, but some have suffered irremediable harm at the hands of "leadership" in TWI. There may have been much forgiveness of TWI, but that does not rectify the loss of a body part or the loss of a child or the damage to a marriage, which marriage might or might not survive. It does not rectify lost job opportunities, career development, financial hardship now caused by surrendering so much to (being coerced by) TWI. It does not rectify the missed opportunity to see a loved one before death, or repair damaged family/friend relationships. I fear for some of the children brought up in TWI who had been raised in a bullying and otherwise abusive atmosphere - raised with fear and not with love. Most here will acknowledge some initial benefits, or deliverance, as you yourself do, delivered from the bondage of the RC church. Others talk of deliverance from addictions of various kinds. (One of my Corps sisters had been delivered from a life of drug addiction that led to prostitution, simply so that she could get her next fix. She had an amazing story to tell - and she gave the glory to God. Yes, she was helped by TWI, only God knows how.) However, too often the deliverance is a deliverance into deeper bondage and servitude; it's just less obvious. So, if you are reading, and you now begin to understand this damage that has been caused, and to develop empathy for the victims, sufferers, abusees, call 'em what you will, it would be a pleasure to share your journey in understanding. If it helps you, here's a brief snapshot. When I was cast out I fell into deepest despair. I was alienated from all my friends and family. All. Everyone. I had given up everything and everyone to follow this wonderful Godly ministry. I was on my way to crawl back over broken glass to get back to TWI after ten years of abject misery and (self-imposed) condemnation away from TWI. I was bright, confident and outgoing before I met a bunch of WoWs; now I was afraid of my own shadow and of every action, no matter how kind, that was shown towards me. I happened across GSC whilst looking for the zip code for TWI. I was totally appalled at the disrespect for this wonderful ministry. I could not believe what I was reading. This godly ministry would never allow these things to happen! They would stand up against sexual abuse, defend marriages, model Godly behavior. Yet, the stories I read chimed with things I'd seen. The severe abuse that happened to me, I learned, wasn't personal as such, just part of the working pattern of TWI. What happened to me had happened to countless others, especially women, and very especially to smart women. I read much that shocked me to my core. And after that, the scales from my eyes and my heart, and God has worked hard to help and heal me. Loving gentle people in churches have helped me. Strangers in the street have been kind to me. Some friends and family relationships are restored, another significant one even more damaged. God has restored very much to me, so much I could weep at his great graciousness. And yet, my career has never recovered, and my longed-for children will never be born; I am now way past childbearing age. Learn to see these stories, Mike, and you will genuinely be able to help people. I believe you have a heart to help and to show God's love to people. You can do that, but you MUST abandon your PFAL mindset because that doesn't deliver into freedom but into bondage. PFAL and TWI cannot be separated. If you argue otherwise, you haven't learned much from the "heart-rending stories." So, what have you learned so far?

Mike also said this, on page 30:

Mike, on another thread, said:

Maybe it's time to divide this thread and lock this part of the thread, as it's now moving in a completely different direction, that could be interesting to explore. Thoughts, mods?

Don't confuse "prosperity gospel" with true gospel.

Good post, T-Bone. Thought the above bits bear repetition. To be slightly more balanced regarding thinking processes, it's perfectly true that our thought processes were subverted and badly, or very badly, damaged. However, we all have worldly thought processes that need to be unravelled too - our selfishness, unkindness, pride and arrogance - these are "bound up" in our flesh, and it's what we brought with us when we "got into" really wanting to know Godly things - we need to reckon the old man dead and put on the new spiritual man clothed with the mind of Christ. Unfortunately we were taught to put on the mind of Wierwille, so we have to get rid of that as well. Perhaps this is a little of what Mt 23:15 is getting at: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are." We have become "twice as much a child of hell" as our "father in the word" (VPW, gag) because we have both worldly and Wierwille thought processes to unravel. Years ago, you, T-Bone, said that the WC program was like Miracle-Gro for all our faults. It's time for the Round-Up now - or even SBK - to kill those faulty and putrid thoughts right down to the root.

Well done, Mike, at long last you got a "reputation" or "like" vote. Well, a couple of votes, actually.