Twinky

Now come on, Outie. We got $30/month and a shared room in Founders Hall, and three meals a day. But weird. Gently turning pages, in a Bible, or which the recipient probably had at least one already. I am not going to peruse my Corps journals to try to find out why we did this inane thing.

A random thought this morning, well not so random as I carefully parted the pages of a map that had got wet. Anybody else remember carefully turning over one page of a new bible that was to be given to some leadership person? I remember once in rez that we all got to turn a few pages of a brand-new ultra-thin page bible, so that the pages would be easier for the intended paragon of ability to open when he came to read the bible (big assumption there, I'm thinking!). To turn these pages was considered a privilege for the turners, and a blessing for the recipient. Yeah, right.

What I think is so amazing is how these people thought it was okay not only to expel people (at will) from various programs, but to order them out of the state or the town. And the victims complied! This, to people who may have given up good jobs, sold property at a loss, moved hundreds of miles (if not to say, moved from another country), disrupted children's education, etc - probably having become alienated from their family and friends who would form a support group - and it's okay to tell people who have demonstrated so significantly their commitment to the cause, that they've gotta be out of town in a few hours. Talk about a power imbalance - "leadership" exercised unfettered "rights" and the victims were so bullied and weakened that they were unable to resist. All because they were being "obedient to God." Grr! It's easy to see to whom such leadership had demonstrated so significantly their commitment - to the one who steals, kills and destroys. God might have a few things to say to such bullies about obedience and meekness.

Wow, there's just nothing like comforting (coming alongside) the bereaved, is there? Just who the f--- did these people think they were? Yeah, who did they think they were? Get outta the state. Get outta the planet. The really crazy thing is, Wayfers felt compelled to OBEY such ludicrous commands.

Well, the Horneys learned their trade under the "leadership" of LCM; they were Corps Coords at more than one campus. As did the Stricklands - learned their trade - not ever "leadership." Why should R&R be different, where the leaders were all modelled on "f--k up leadership"? (In all senses of f- up.)

Possibly, especially if it's a white carpet.

Whited sepulchre

Good post, T-Bone. Authenticity Yes. I can't even begin to think of Christians that should be doing this. Lk 12:42ff seems on point, about a master finding his servant(s) doing the right thing. Also, Deut 25, about giving proper value and not cheating. Although this applies to physical weights, I think it appropriate to apply it to "the weight of time" and giving good value for what an employer is paying for. 13“You must not have two different weightsf in your bag, one heavy and one light.g 14You must not have two differing dry measures in your house, a larger and a smaller. 15You must have a full and honest weight, a full and honest dry measure, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. 16For everyone who does such things and acts unfairly is detestable to the LORD your God. I think that compassion coupled with vision for improvement is important for Christian leaders. Compassion - everyone needs that! Vision - because it's not just seeing a need, but having the vision to see a way through and beyond the need,so as to lift the needy person(s). Also, the ability to communicate that vision, and get others enthusiastic and alongside. "Communication"" isn't just words (especially not fancy words) but will include action that brings forth results (healed and helped people). Of course, nothing will go anywhere without a deep reliance on the power of God to energise, but that can't be seen directly, only by its outcomes - showing faith by one's works.

Wish the "quote" function worked better -I know I set it up correctly - but no doubt people here can work out what's from 1 Tim 3 and what's from a less capable source.

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum, but i don't want the aggression of About The Way, and it's not really Open, either. So: what is “Christian leadership”? We have a Corps principle that says we should “go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need,” which is in itself a good principle, but it was twisted to suit TWI’s concerns, interests, and greed. We have the R&R bunch who’ve set themselves up as “leaders” of some other sort of TWI-clone. As to Biblical suggestions, there are some qualities listed in 1 Tim 3, regarding “bishops” or “overseers” and “deacons,” which I’m including here because if I don’t include it, someone else will post it.

Since it belongs more on this thread than on the Ted Talk thread, I thought I'd copy in what Don'tWorryBeHappy said about an hour ago on that TT thread:

Love it! We have our own gravedigger (maybe ex-gravedigger?), who knows where the bodies are buried. Go for it, DWBH. I didn't know any of the stuff you posted about. You know stuff about some of the others, too, I think. Allan, who posts here occasionally, can tell you his own tales about the Str1cklands, co-signatories to the T&T letter. Allan knows rather a lot about the Str1cklands.

R&R want to bring Paul into it? Fine. Get out of the ivory tower or the gilded cage, or wherever they hang out, and study to challenge themselves. Then, get out there into dangerous, hostile and risky situations, and preach the gospel. Is any one of them prepared to be falsely imprisoned? To face a real risk of death? To actually die for their beliefs? For sure, if there were a real risk of death, one would want to be sure one's lifestyle were beyond reproach and be sure that one's beliefs were rock solid - truly held and not second-hand acquired-by-rote niceties. Paul knew the hurt and damage he'd caused. I'm certain he did everything he could to learn from that, and ensure he never again blindly followed what he'd been taught without really, really, really thinking it through. Sounds like a lot of work, to me!

It would be appropriate for this R&R bunch to show us their faith by their deeds. Not by their words, of which there are many. But by their acts of selfless kindness, compassion, and genuine service to those who can respond only with a word of thanks (and maybe not even that). Let them do that for a few years. Then perhaps they will have something to say that's worth listening to.

Jesus Christ? What has he to do with anything? Isn't he off someplace playing a harp, or fishing, or some such?

Maintaining accountability ... Yes, everyone was accountable to some supposed higher level - branch, limb, etc - but the BoT (as it was when I was around), or BoD nowadays, didn't consider itself accountabe to anyone or anything. They accounted for none of their actions, for none of the consequences of any words or "doctrine," and not for the money given to them in trust. I love that churches I know of here have a proper structure and no one is left unaccountable. That also means that leaders, vicars, etc, aren't left feeling either Godlike in power, nor, conversely, unsupported by those they serve. There's a lot to be said for accountability and orderliness.

Yes, I remember something vaguely like that. And "Ephesians - the breakfast of champions." Or some such. But --- want some kool-aid with that? How about: "PFAL - the sedative for all your worries"? Or: "PFAL - for the pi$$ that passes all understanding"?

Thank you, Chockfull.

It's a pretty safe adventure, at least in my city, which is a fairly peaceful, wealthy, touristy, town-and-gown city and beloved by hen and stag parties. Other cities have different circumstances to cope with. We go out as a team of min 3 Street Pastors, and preferably 4 - a threesome stay together, a foursome is two pairs on opposite sides of the street. The city centre is heavily watched by CCTV and we have radios that communicate with CCTV, with all the bar security staff, with a roving band of security staff ("the heavies") who drive around with a paramedic in an ambulance, and with the police (who also have their own radios). If we think something is starting to kick off, we can ask for cameras to be put on the scene, or we can ask the heavies to come by (they arrive within minutes). We don't get involved with fights, but our very presence (and our prayers for peace) are often enough to defuse a situation. Which is not to say there aren't incidents, but they are few and far between. We have had no assaults upon us in the ten years we've been going - verbal abuse hurled at us occasionally, but rarely - mostly we get people running up to us and throwing their arms around us and exclaiming, "We're so glad you're here to take care of us!" I got involved in this from the beginning, in this city. I had been thinking how much better life was now, how healed I had become by the tenderness and kindness I'd received in my church. I wanted to contribute something into the life of this city. There was a notice up in church about a new street patrol that was proposed at weekends, and inviting interested people to a meeting. I instantly felt "smote in the heart" and knew this was something I should be doing. So I went to the initial meeting, and three months later those who'd remained interested were all trained and we hit the streets. Many of the initial intake are still part of the group. There were initial reservations from door staff and the community, who thought we were police in disguise. But now we are widely recognised for our help and non-judgmental approach. So many different doors open to us, to serve and to preach the gospel - "occasionally with words." I can only say, this would never, never, never have happened with any Wayfer project. It's a universe apart. Yep. Who needs a cultie mindset? Freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The cats, of course, think that 4am is playtime, not bedtime. So, having spent till 3.15am Street Pastoring, I now find myself Cat Pastoring.

So. I just got in from 5 hours strolling the streets of this city. Many people came up to us and told us they loved us, loved what we do. Of course, we accept their thanks, but say we do it because we love God and want them to share in that love. Tonight also several people came up to us specifically to ask us to pray, including: one young soldier who is about to be posted to a recent war zone; another young man outside a gay pub [his eyeliner was much better than I ever managed, LOL!], who says he's a Christian and goes to church in another city, now a student in my city, and he seeks a church that will be supportive of him (able to refer him to somewhere convenient for his student accom); and another young man with some spiritual issues (able to help there too). We also talked with huddles of the "regulars" who are homeless, gave them coffee or tea and muesli bars; one of them that we usually pray with (and he sings us a hymn, to thank us) was asleep, so we didn't get to pray with him. The door security staff are always pleased to see us, greeting us with handshakes and hugs. We assisted (by request) at the railway station - the railway police now like us to be there when a particular train goes out, as the partying passengers can become very rowdy. We collected only 48 entire bottles (usually more like 80+) and swept up 3 broken bottles (usually more like 8). It was a quiet night in town, so we didn't get to help sober up any legless drunks, clean up their vomit on their clothes and the dirt on their faces, or persuade taxis to take them home. Yep. Quite a long way from being in an "evangelical cult." And an even greater distance from parsing Greek verbs. Thanks to those of you who prayed for a safe night for the team.

A bit off topic now, given the (predictable) way this thread has gone, but I'm out tonight, beating the feet on the streets from about 9.30pm to about 3.30am. You folks here will easily be awake in those hours, given the time differences. So, if you think of it, please pray for -- the safety of our team and city (and the other teams out within the UK); the wisdom for us to deal with whatever we encounter; and for our tongues to speak words of peace and blessing to those we encounter. We as a team know we'll have a good time in each others' company.

Thank you, T-Bone! (blushes)

Started in London in response to fears of locals in Brixton about knife crime. Has since widely expanded, both in remit and location. There are around 300 groups in Britain, some in Trinidad, some in Australia - in fact, in 7 countries including 3 teams in the USA (Chico, California; Bangor and Portland, Maine). In my city, we get heaps of people rushing up to hug us and to thank us for looking out for them. Homeless people know we don't judge, but offer kind words, a hot drink, and blankets etc in cold weather. Sometimes, homeless people tell us about someone (not usually a homeless person) whom they've noticed huddled in a doorway or alley, that they are concerned about. Parents are thankful we get their very drunk kids home safely. Security staff throw drunks out but then call us to ensure the drunks are warm and safe. Our universities have gained a good reputation as being in a safe city. The homosexual community welcomes us and some of them love to talk - they often have had horrendous times in churches. And EVERYONE knows we are volunteers - and volunteer CHRISTIANS. Our actions are a much better way of witnessing than door knocking!!!

Congratulations, Taxidev!