Twinky

Oh, thanks, T-Bone, for your kind words, but really I'm just a nobody trying to help a few people less fortunate than myself. I think God gave me a few "smarts" in trust to help others. And he gave me great parents to model how to help, selflessly. And God is kind enough to help all of us who want to help others. Even those who later behaved callously. I think most had a genuine desire to help others, originally. Then TWI perverted them with promiscuity coupledwith supposed "tough love." I pray they can recover their true Godly selves one day.

Hey, Chocky, your response seems a bit OTT. You've enjoyed posting here for some years. Why notoffer help in some way - financially or as an administrator, or in some other way.

Dunno, .T-Bone. I always thought of people's situations and tried to help. But then, I also thought that TWI was the answer. I wasn't a good salesman, but caring and being interested in people did encourage or even entice people to want to know more about TWI's wares. But ask some leaders for help ... I met some great caring folk. And some really hard ones, that you wouldn't naturally want to turn to. And I also watched so move from the first group to the second group. Not sure that I ever saw second group move to the first group. Glad to be out. I don't have to take my minister's advice, turn to him or her for help; there are many Christian people I know whose advice I can take seriously should I choose to seek it.

Hey Bramble. I enjoyed your posts. Good to hear from you again. Glad you'vegot a life. And a hubby. Life's good.

Mmmmm - just checked in after my vacation. I find myself wondering what you are on about and if you are on vacation, or at least your head is, in some very unusual place. In other words, what are you talking about?

Which kinda demands the questions: what about figures of speech? which are certainly NOT literal. And usage at what time period? Because surely also, words change meanings. Which VPW made a big deal of - mainly because he was soooo ignorant that he didn't actually understand the English language, never mind any ancient languages. Maybe - literals according to AB-usage? Or even - be-littles according to usage?

Try this link. You might need to rummage around a fair bit. http://www.greasespotcafe.com:80/waydale/main/lawsuit-main.htm

Maybe you should try editing the "Cults" Wiki page?

Welcome, Sugarrush. When did you leave? I know all of them. And so do others here. They've had different experiences in TWI but they've all been in leadership positions. And they all know enough to speak out and condemn the evil that there is in TWI. They don't need to "revive and restore" what has caused so much damage in so many lives. What they do need is to involve themselves in the wider Christian church, that's out there doing and not merely talking about doing. They need to acknowledge the genuine good work (and "believing") of others, and they need to acknowledge the evils and bad work of TWI, both from its beginning and to this day.

Isn't that a statement from PFAL? Plagiarised, of course, though who knows who or what from.

First, WELCOME, AlohaAnn, sounds like you've been a lurker for a while. Good to know our historic posts are still helping people. Well done on escaping yourself. Second, FAB NEWS that your daughter has escaped. I'm sure (as you've been out for a while) that your heart is leaping with joy. You can build some healthy family ties and get to enjoy your grandchildren and be a lovely, "spoiling" granny. Your daughter and her husband have a long way to go, but that they have seen for themselves that the emperor has no clothes is a great start. They have seen enough to know that all is not well in Waybrain. Now they need patience and help to disentangle themselves from the myriad lies in thought and behaviour. You of all people know that they may well be a little weird in their thinking patterns. Be patient, love 'em up big, especially the grandkids - they often have a lot of difficulty. Haere mai!

Interesting take on an old story, Bolshy One.

And now to bring this back to the thread title: I said earlier that the first sin of mankind was a failure to understand God. And there seems to be plenty of evidence of that, in the way this thread has taken a sudden turn. People! Not one of us can wholly understand God, and especially not alone. Let's not have infighting, even where we disagree with each other. Rom 12:16 - Live in harmony with each other. Don't be too proud to enjoy the company of ordinary people. And don't think you know it all! (NLT) Prov 3:7 - Don't be impressed with your own wisdom. Instead, fear the LORD and turn away from evil. (NLT) You remember from PFAL how VPW said Eve's problem was that she "considered" what the serpent had to say. VPW used this as his pretext for getting us to not consider other viewpoints. Can I say, I'd think that her "problem" was not that she "considered," but that she didn't go to the fountain of wisdom to ask "Why?" but instead listened to other another source of "wisdom" (the serpent) that was way off beam. There are many reputable people out there now who do sincerely honour God and do their best to present an honest viewpoint (rather than set out to deceive), but their viewpoints are inevitably coloured by many things, and they may not be wholly accurate. So don't hang your hat on them and their viewpoints. Love God (and his wisdom) first, and then love your fellow man (and his wisdom). James 3:17 - But the wisdom from above is first of all pure. It is also peace loving, gentle at all times, and willing to yield to others. (NLT)

In any event, the "first sin" wasn't anything sexual at all. The first sin was lack of understanding, leading to God-rejection, leading to disobedience. Tempter: "Hey, try this activity." Mankind: "Not supposed to do that." Tempter: "Why not?" Mankind: "Don't know. God said, but I don't know why." Tempter: "You can be like God." Mankind: "Hmm, why not?" Tempter: "If you do this, you will be wise like God." Mankind: "Hmm, yeah, sounds all right to me, I'll give it a go." Mankind: does the forbidden thing. Tempter: "Here you are. You're wise now. You understand what a f-up you've done. Have some guilt and shame, and a few other byproducts of disobedience-awareness." It isn't just God-rejection, which itself is a symptom; it's failure to understand of God, who God is, and what he does. Mankind, who had walked and talked with God, surely knew who'd made the animals and the plants and everything else. Perhaps mankind saw creatures copulating, reproducing, young being born or hatched (Gen 1:23) and didn't see themselves (mankind) also increasing (Gen 1:27) because they didn't understand the process, or the timescale, or for some other reason. Rom 1:18ff is all about failure to understand. They knew God... didn't glorify him... understanding became darkened. They did not (Rom 1:28) "think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God" so (then) "God gave them over to a depraved mind." If you read this section of Romans carefully, it appears to say that idolatry came before sexual sin. But the lead-in is the failure to see and understand what may be known about God, "God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." (NIV, Rom 1:20) Which is why we are urged in Proverbs 4 (AV/KJV)

I thought that, exactly. Happily, I don't think I could remember a thing within minutes afterwards. I certainly have no recollection now, and please, nobody remind me!

So, knowing what you knew when you were at that Adv Class - did you take the opportunity to tell those present that you were leaving, and explain at length WHY you were leaving?

Love the movie clip, T-Bone.

If (as was taught by VPW, and therefore probably also by JAL) Christians are the real Israel - then wouldn't Jesus's words apply to us? And while we're about it - Judeans (or Judeans and Benjaminites) are not "Israel," much less "all Israel" - they're just a couple of the tribes of Israel. There were a lot more tribes, who got hived off into the "northern kingdom" as a result of David's disobedience. The other tribes (still Israel) became ruled by Jeroboam and were led deeply into idolatry, worship of golden calves, etc. So. Israel. Just Judeans and Benjamites? The whole of the 12 tribes? Spiritual Israel - the Christian church? The Bible makes a heck of a lot more sense if read without PFAL-coloured glasses. Which part or parts of Jesus's words in Mt 5 (for example) don't apply to the Christian church (only the bit about the sanhedrin? Bring up to date with modern "authorities" and attitudes, and well, there you are, a bad attitude can lead to a very bad outcome.

I think this might be an appropriate place to add a small anecdote about the Body working together. A friend and I were on holiday, in France. Friend was driving. A very minor accident occurred; friend was reversing slowly round a corner because we'd missed our turning; a Frenchwoman was coming forward round the same corner. It was "our fault." Ms French was understandably upset and berated us vigorously. The damage was slight: only a broken trim round her headlight, nothing to our vehicle. We didn't know what to do, couldn't speak adequate French, didn't know if it had to be reported to a gendarme, could imagine horrible consequences. It was getting very stressful. There seemed no-one in sight. Suddenly two young women arrived, quickly sized up the situation. One helped Ms French phone the Lancia dealer and the other calmed everyone down and explained in good English what was happening. It turned out that she had been a missionary in London for a couple of years. Amazing! It was established that the part would cost about 17 or 18 euros. Ms French was offered 40 euros (to compensate for her trouble). Despite her noisy outrage, she refused to accept that much, even finding the English to say, "Too much;" she accepted 20 euros. And off she went, quite happy. We thanked the young women, looked back at our car - looked round for the women again, and they'd vanished. Question: were they ministering angels? Probably not, though they do go around in pairs. I think they were real live, human beings, part of the Body, that the Lord himself had sent to help us in that situation. We found a small chapel and offered prayers of thanks. The kicker is: they were Jehovah's Witnesses - part of a sect (some say cult) that many would deny are in fact Christian.

Thanks, Rocky. And the flip side of what I said earlier is exactly what T-Bone said a couple of posts later. As unwitting and unwilling participants in furthering the division of the Body, by promoting VPW's doctrine of division, I think it befits us escapees to do what we can now to repair the damage and to pay particular attention to knitting that Body back together - as Eph 4:15-16 continues: :15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into Him who is the head - Christ. :16 From Him the whole body, fitted and knit together by every supporting ligament, I'm thinking that might mean every Christian, together with apostles, prophets, etc and bishops and deacons as appointed by Him (not necessarily by some church hierarchy) (and certainly not appointed by themselves) promotes the growth of the body for building itself in love Growth! Building together! I'm taking that as individual growth - and the growth in numbers of those participating in the Body (ie, outreach) by the proper working of each individual part. Again, I'm thinking that must mean every Christian, fully functioning and moving to maturity. When you think about it, the policy of "mark and avoid" is only mentioned in passing - what, once? twice? - in the NT. How many more times are there references to working together, likemindedness in furthering the gospel, being knit together, unity of the spirit, and such like, together with descriptions of, and named people who are modelling, just that behaviour? I utterly reject any kind of division as promoted by Weirwille or any other so-called Christian leader.

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people His = Christ's people for works of service, Not works of servitude so that the body of Christ may be built up The Body of Christ - not the coffers of any organisation (TWI or other) until we all reach unity in the faith That is, we're all unified in looking towards and trusting him, the Head, the Lord, Christ - which is not the same as lockstep likemindedness and in the knowledge of the Son of God Knowledge of the Son, the One, the Redeemer, the Ultimate Teacher and become mature, Yet remaining childlike in our wonder and love for Christ attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Which fullness can only be understood by knowing, valuing and appreciating how he works in other and all parts of "his body" - that is, within the fullness of the Christian church Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves,and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. I have to say that I met some awesome people in TWI (mostly at lower levels) and some significantly awesome people who are real movers and shakers in the gentlest and kindest way at helping others, patient, serving the poor and disadvantaged, "coming alongside," generous in heart and time and with money, teaching by example, and modelling a life that is authentic and truly mirrors the love of Christ for everyone. They are from many different walks of life, and they are often very different from each other in personality - except for an indefinable warmth and "drawing" effect. I'd say, these are people equipped for service, mature, and reaching to the fullness of Christ.

No, JJ. Martindale is a very long way from Jesus Christ. But I can certainly understand anyone blanching and/or uttering some expletive. I wonder if LCM and/or TWI are aware of this exhibition, and if so, whether they have considered legal action. I don't suppose for one minute that they authorized the use of the AoS video or LCM's image.

OK, Sky, that didn't make it into Loyboy theology. You mention late 70s; did the "helps" ministries make it into the 80s?

It's not just those "gift ministries" in Eph 4 we need to be concerned about. Don't forget: The evangelists and pastors have disappeared, here: but we get miracle workers and healers instead, and great "helping and managing" gifts (as described in another version). This bunch of people never got a mention in Wierwillian theology. Wouldn't fit on the pentagon, I suppose. (Maybe you'd need a double pentagon?) Aha! Two pentagons! Established!! (well ... something's established!)

Paul was a religious zealot of the time, a Pharisee of the Pharisees. He was clearly well educated and well respected, trusted by the important people of the time, given free rein to carry out his zealotry and haul converts (heretics) off to prison. Yet he was tutored also by Gamaliel, who we’ve seen from other records took things carefully and slowly, and in perhaps a more considered manner. Paul goes off hauling folk off to prison. He meets a form of zealotry and passive resistance that astounds him: the martyr Stephen, and others in the towns he rampages. He knows that what he knows – in his head – hasn’t quite reached his heart. But he sees these people have something in their hearts. He’s suspicious, at first; doesn’t believe it’s real, but knows they have a passion that exceeds his own. (They can be a bit scary, that sort of people; yet they have something that grabs one’s attention.) After his conversion experience and with his welcome and introduction by Barnabas (how astounding that must have been!), Paul wants to know how he got it wrong. He re-examines everything he knows (and it’s a lot). (Just like we have to re-examine everything we learned from TWI in particular, and perhaps from other churches too.) He finally begins to get the big picture. Those of us who still profess to be Christians know those light-bulb moments when something suddenly comes into focus, or when such-and-such a verse appears in our Bible and it’s as though we’d never ever seen that verse before. I’m suspecting Paul had a lot of those moments. I don’t think Paul was a con-artist, any more than we escapees from TWI are con artists. If anything, we who have re-examined our beliefs and our biased studies are more passionate for what we now understand than we ever were before. Paul started from a high level of knowledge so he could examine a lot of detailed passages and draw threads together in a way that most of us cannot. Finally, finally, he gets God’s big picture, and the more he studies, ponders, preaches, the more he learns. The more he sees others apply it and live it (and it works!) the more he understands. I wonder if some of those “but I speak by permission” and “in my judgment” sections are things that he’d considered, but hadn’t at that point found any specific Torah or other scroll/scripture to support (and also nothing to negate). He realised “externals” didn’t matter (hair length, modes of dress, religious observances and rituals, etc) but that “internals” manifesting as actions, really did matter. There is so much more freedom in Paul’s epistles than he’s usually given credit for. He himself had been “under law” for so long – he knew what that was like – and he knew it wasn’t the will of God that men should be oppressed by legalism. He knew the many OT proverbs and sayings about guarding one’s heart, probably knew the oral forms of the gospels – what we know as Mt 15:1-28 for example. I don’t think a single one of us here could do anything like Paul did (not even the late Steve Lortz, whose contributions I always found interesting and usually enlightening). Paul, a con man? If it were not for Paul, we’d still be worshiping nature, Diana, Dagon, the local emperor, or other false gods.