oldiesman

Another good product, albeit twice as expensive as the EAS, is Achieve One http://www.achievone.com/ 15 grams protein, very low carb, and tastes good. But costs around $3.00 each ...

Have you tried the Dark Chocolate? It really is good. I don't like vanilla. Strawberry is ok.

Thanks, I'll try the low carb ice cream sometime. I have had sugar free ice pops. I also use the EAS Myoplex low carb shakes. 17g protein, 4g carb, and 110 calories. Excellent. I get them at Walmart and they are only $1.50 each. For additional snacks, I use a product by Kay Naturals called high protein chips and their pretzel sticks. They are only 120 calories per serving, but 10g protein and 10g carb, which is an excellent ratio. High protein/low carb bars are excellent too, but I always look out for high carbs. More than 26g per bar is probably too much. 10-15g is better.

I don't know the first thing about baking but always interested in sugar free goodies. I use 3 items regularly: Canned fruit cocktail sweetened with splenda. Tastycake Sugar Free Finger Cakes (100 calories per cake) Jello Sugar Free Pudding (Dark Chocolate and Cinnamon Rice Pudding), 80 calories. The above items are delicious. If you know of more from the shelves please let me know. Am interested in anything very low carb.

I heard that carbonite.com was a good online backup system. $50.00 per year. I am thinking about giving them a try myself.

Did some poking around on the net and found them, Founded by Vince Finnegan. Back in 1989, the loyalty letter incident apparently began its embryonic founding, after Vince got fired. As far as I can tell, these folks mostly are the New Yorkers who were standing with Vince Finnegan who was standing with Chris Geer who was standing against the trustees at the time. Then at some point, Vince split off from Geer. My former twig coordinators from Poughkeepsie are still with Vince! Man alive. As I read their beliefs, lots of them are the same as twi, with the notable exception that salvation is contingent upon faithfulness ... Maybe I should stop by and say hi? :o :D Statement of Beliefs Vince's Stowray

Actually John Schoenheit's paper works to contradict Dr. Juedes' claim as he expressed it: "The fact that core Way teachings can so easily be used to promote immorality is a good indication that those Way teachings are false, too." "is a good indication that those Way teachings are false, too" is the part of Dr. Juedes' statement that I am disagreeing with. John Schoeneit uses the core twi teaching "seven administrations" to prove from scripture, namely, the church epistles, that adultery and fornication is not permitted in the grace administration. So no, the fact that the seven administrations teaching was misused to promote immorality by some actually is NOT a good indication that that teaching is false, because the teaching also may be used to teach morality in the grace administration, as John Schoenheit did.

Are there actions that Jesus asks people to perform that are not covered in the church epistles? Perhaps that would be something to think about. But on the topic of adultery and fornication, John Schoenheit in his paper proved from the church epistles that adultery and fornication is not permitted, so inferring that twi core teaching (seven administrations) is false because of bad behavior is folly.

Yes, I believe that is correct.

Some folks won't because of VPW sins. Me, I'd like to have all the sessions on my iPod for present and future reference. :o :D

You appear to be suggesting that CFS was an open invitation for the student to live immorally, since it did not contain passages against adultery and fornication. I disagree on two points, (1) there was no invitation or doctrine in the CFS class that taught people to live immorally, and (2) the absence of key scriptures against adultery and fornication does not promote adultery and fornication in and of itself. It has been inferred, but I think the greater cause of adultery and fornication is that people CHOOSE to live immorally because they want to, because of the sin nature, walking by the flesh; regardless of whether or not we are taught something. I agree that the absence of those key scriptures did not help matters. But also doesn't mean that the class was false because some folks choose to live immorally. Also, if bad fruit = bad theology, what about those folks who choose to live morally, who bore good fruit? Should we say that CFS was a magnificent success because of many who live morally? That'd mean good fruit = good theology.

I disagree with that premise. The application of doctrine is contingent and controlled solely upon the person making the decision to apply it, either appropriately or inappropriately. The same doctrine can be used for ill purposes and twisted, or used for honorable purposes. That is why, the behavior of the one performing the application of theology does not prove one way or the other that the theology is truth or error. If that's the case, that'd mean truth is contingent upon someone's behavior at a certain point in time. Truth is truth, behavior is behavior.

Tzaia, thank you for acknowledging the point I am making. I respect your view that you no longer believe in the administrations teaching based upon its own merit or lack thereof.

So you think this is changing the subject? Did you read Dr. Juedes article in its entirety? I did. Dr. Juedes opened the door by inferring that core twi doctrine (which includes the seven administrations and body soul and spirit) is FALSE BECAUSE OF IMMORAL BEHAVIOR. That is pertinent to this thread of which the article is based. Had he simply stated that twi doctrine was used to excuse immoral behavior, without speaking about the truth or error of the doctrine itself, I would have agreed with that opinion. BUT that is not enough, he wants to show that because of the immoral behavior, the doctrine must be wrong too. Sorry, I don't buy it. As pointed out above, somebody can teach the doctrine and extract an exact opposite meaning, which I think means that the core doctrine (like seven administrations, body/soul/spirit) is IRRELEVANT when it comes to immoral behavior!

I get what you are saying, but that is not what Dr. Juedes said. He wrote "the fact that core Way teachings can so easily be used to promote immorality is a good indication that those Way teachings are false, too." He is saying that because someone uses, for example, the seven administrations to excuse adultery, that the seven administrations teaching is false. Folks, that is asinine, ridiculous logic! The seven administrations teaching should stand or fall on its own, irrespective of how it is used, or the behavior of those who use it! Conversely, here is an example of the seven administrations teaching being used to show that adultery in the grace administration is wrong. It is from John Schoenheit's adultery paper "Appendix A." John shows from the seven administrations teaching that believers in the Grace Administration are not allowed to have more than one wife, and they are not allowed to "sleep around" either. So if the seven administrations are false based upon the immoral behavior of some, or encourage adultery, how would you explain the above??

He is ALIVE in us via the holy spirit. "It's Christ in you, the Hope of Glory". Do you remember that teaching? I do. I'd say that qualifies as fellowship but you can believe what you want!

This is ridiculous. It purports to infer that those who believe Christ is absent or dead cannot have a practical relationship with God. So what about Jews, Hindus, Muslims? What is more, TWI taught that Christ is alive and resurrected and seated at God's right hand, is our Lord and Savior, makes intercession for us, has fellowship with us, etc. Cherry picking one statement by VP out of its context is fraudulent and misleading.

Quote from the article: I disagree in part with this premise. It purports to infer that if immorality is present, the theology is false. What it fails to mention is that immorality likely will be present whether or not the teachings are true or false. I do agree that twi failed to adequately teach that adultery and fornication is sinful... which likely helped along the increase in these sinful practices; but this does not mean or equal that the teaching on the seven administrations was evil or false. That is folly, and flawed logic. Where did VP get the seven administrations from, Bullinger? So since Bullinger was of good moral character, shall we say that it was the fruit of the seven administrations teachings? After all, good fruit or morality indicates a good root of theology? Not really. I think the two should be separated. Accordingly, I think the teachings should stand or fall on their own, irrespective of the behavior of the students. The sins of the students do not negate the truths (or errors) in the teachings.

I think it depends on the state laws. To the best of my knowledge, most states have no law against slandering the dead, so a lawsuit of this nature likely would be a big waste of time and money even if the allegation is false. What'd be interesting is if VPW were alive and someone would sue for sexual harassment/rape. Logically, Craig got sued, so its not crazy to think someone would sue and end up receiving a financial settlement.

Congratulations Raf and family. :)

If anyone is interested, you may download a free monthly podcast from STFI HERE. I have been downloading them for months and they are pretty good. Fear not. Nothing about spiders and boogie men.

Also, "all men are liars" the "all" must be interpreted "all with distinction". "All without exception" men are NOT liars, Jesus being the distinctive exception.

Good point Raf, thanks for clearing that up.

Which was proven erroneous when he faked it. I agree with you on that error in PFAL.