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Everything posted by oldiesman
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All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
So then people who commit suicide do not even share any responsibility for their own actions. Well, I disagree with that opinion. -
All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
Edited - removed personal attack -
All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
That goes without saying. -
I guess it's just his opinion. Just like me, I suppose he doesn't always subscribe to the "blame somebody else" syndrome.
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Am I allowed to post opinions without getting attacked personally?
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All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions. -
All that goes on in a persons mind before committing suicide, I don't know. But I was listening to the Dennis Prager podcast one day and the topic was suicide... Dennis said something that stuck with me "suicide is selfish and narcissistic". It impressed upon me that no matter how hurt, desperate, depressed or insane a person may be because of relations with others, they still share in a level of responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
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All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
Well obviously it was bull, especially since the same man wrote the following in his loyalty letter of March 1989: This certainly is written confirmation that one may walk with God outside of twi. So I think it really was up to each individual what to believe. I'm not saying some didn't buy into the "greasepot by midnight" line as a cause for concern; but to me it's a red herring. I can't buy into the idea that it was a reason some now say kept some folks inside twi for years, with all the other evidence we have available to us. My basic belief is this: generally, participants stayed as long as twi was in some way beneficial to them. They left, when twi became un-beneficial to them. Of course there will always be some exceptions. -
All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
Anyone who sat through PFAL and believed in "the law of believing" had the option of deciding for himself what he would believe. So when one heard "if you leave the ministry you will die", one had a choice to believe that or reject that, depending upon one's own choice. Or, choose to have faith in God and in the scriptures with verses like "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." So I think it was ultimately up to each individual. I don't think so. Just so we're clear on this, I disagree. I don't believe people stayed in twi or the corps because they feared that if they left, they would die. However, I can see that upon being told "the hedge of protection" will be gone if one left, it's possible some believers fell into that thought process for a time AFTER THEY LEFT. The thought crossed my mind too for the first few days. However, after more reading of scripture, retemories, SIT, faith in God, and common horse sense (like seeing all the folks who already left who didn't die after all) that fear vanished quickly. -
All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
I am not disputing the fact that some people, upon leaving twi, wondered if everything would be ok. I'm opining that that worry had NO comparison to an actual beheading by a King who had the military might to pull it off as desired. It's still apples and oranges. Comparing a religion where participants have free will with a military dictatorship where free will can get one killed, will never be a fair or factual comparison. If one commits treason against twi, one gets marked and avoided. If one commits treason against the King, one gets beheaded. -
All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
Thank you WhiteDove. -
All the Women in the Kingdom Belong to the King
oldiesman replied to Nottawayfer's topic in About The Way
I'm not so sure. Even so, the penalty for saying "no" to a king could be a beheading, so there's really no comparison. -
I disgree with this viewpoint, at least in part. If you're talking about perpetuating a secret doctrine like "having sex with my twig coordinators wife is just like shaking hands", ok yeah, then I agree. Get rid of that part, and other highly questionable stuff. But the whole of TWI doctrine is a lot more than just the secret doctrines that now have been revealed and condemned. Its also about many wonderful truths that have a permanent place in Christians' hearts that folks want to perpetuate for generations. That's why I'm not condemning groups like CES, CFF and the like; they are trying to perpetuate the good doctrine even though once taught by Victor Paul Wierwille. They realize the fundamental concept that the sins and wrong doctrines of the teacher does not negate the truths and right doctrine in the teachers message, and they are able to separate the fish from the bones and continue.
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how the stick people became extinct
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Thomas, if you want to help someone I think the loving thing to do would be to PM them and not try to publicly humiliate. You have a right to your own opinion, but to say that your post is "tough love" is lame. I think you're full of crap.
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Thank God this is the United States of America with freedom of religion.
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I forgot to mention a few other scriptures taught in the context of the law of believing: Remember these scriptures from the Class?: Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. Being strong in faith giving glory to God, and being fully persuaded that what God has promised he was able also to perform, was a vital key in understanding and practicing "the law of believing" as taught in PFAL. This speaks for itself, and reasonable and intelligent folks who practiced these truths can judge for themselves whether the system was atheistic.
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Dr. Juedes has done this repeatedly. He's taken "the law of believing" taught in the context of how to receive the things of God and tries to make it sound like God wasn't needed, something like some atheistic voodoo belief we were supposedly practicing. Yes shame on Dr. Juedes for twisting the teachings around. He knows better, but when it comes to twi he can't see it.
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I agree. His statement "lots of the stuff I teach is not original" confirms just that. He was confirming he wasn't the only one receiving these truths and he said as much. He said he "learned from men of God scattered across the continent". These men were receiving truths from God. Yes, giving proper written acknowledgement in his books would have been the right thing to do. But the idea that he was trying to palm off his teachings as original (when he tells us they are not, when he tells us who he learned from, when he says he learned from men of God scattered across the continent, and when he sells some of the books he learned from in the Way Bookstore) is simply, a fairy tale.
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Hi Phil, I agree in part. Yes, I agree we should never make a claim to have full knowledge of Him and His ways. Even with all the revelation in the bible we only know in part. I would add to your verses the ones in Corinthians: 1Cr 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. Not sure about the pride part and what you mean. When people have boldness and confidence in their faith, it doesn't automatically mean they have pride in their own abilities or exalting themselves. I suppose its possible, but we'd have to look at the person's mindset who you may be referring to and what set of circumstances. In any case, I believe God wants us to have great boldness in the faith, and teach with confidence. Consider these verses: Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. 1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. Hbr 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. 1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. 1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. In that last set of verses, I think its clear that the purpose of God's love is so we may have boldness, because as he is, so are we in this world. Ambassadors have confidence and boldness in the power and authority they have been given by their country. We are ambassadors for Christ. As such, we have confidence and boldness in the power and authority given to us by God. Furthermore I think having confidence and boldness in what God has wrought through Christ Jesus is the opposite of having pride in oneself or one's own abilities.
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Hi Phil, I agree in part. Yes, Christ's commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. BTW, that was taught in twi in the first 30 minutes or so in the Power for Abundant Living class as "The First and Great Commandment". What I think we may disagree on is in the importance of having knowledge of his will from the bible ... I don't know if you call that "special knowledge", ... but simply understand the importance of knowledge of God's will from the bible. Your statement "we shouldn't ever think we know his will" seems to run counter to that. I think this is one of the biggie's of The Way and therefore you may have strong disagreement with your girlfriend on this. I don't think so. As I understand it, Lucifer already was powerful as one of God's arch-angels ... but that wasn't enough for him, what he wanted was to exalt his throne ABOVE God. Essentially wanted to be God. But that's far different than believers in Christ wanting to have God's power working in their life: Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 1Th 2:13 ¶ For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. Jesus said he who believeth on me "the works that I do shall he do also...". Jhn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. So I don't think its about wanting to be God or wanting God's power to exalt one-self for some selfish purpose ... I never thought that about Way people, but I guess you'll have to make up your own mind. Conversely, I think it's all about wanting to do God's will, that is written in God's Word, because one loves God... 1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
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Hi Phil, From the twi viewpoint ... in the words of Dr. Wierwille "find out what's available from God's Word..." The "law of believing" was taught in the context of believing to receive the written promises of God in the bible. For example, does the bible say is it available for someone to win lotto? No. So praying/believing to win lotto would be out of bounds and wouldn't work. On the other hand, John 10:10 says: Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. This is the foundational scripture for Power for Abundant Living .... Jesus came so that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. We were taught in twi that life is the greek word "zoe" life in all of its manifestations including eternal life. That is a promise... so praying/believing to receive that life in all of its manifestions would be within God's will and availability, as long as one fulfills the specific condition required for receiving. Jesus said when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. "and what soever ye ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive". Praying for what? The written promises of God. Life in all of its manifestations, among other things. One of Wierwille's lines from PFAL (I write this from memory) was "there are over 900 some promises in the Word for a person to profit and be in health.. how many do you know? The more one knows, the more one can believe to receive". So then according to twi doctrine, having an abundant life is God's will; not dying a horrible and painful death. God is love, and wants the best for people, especially his kids. That is why in your previous example of Peter and Paul, I don't believe it was God's will they die a painful excrusiating death and so forth ... I believe they were fulfilling God's will for their lives by continuing in faith, but I believe the pain, hurt, anguish and death came from the thief, the devil. I don't believe those horrific deaths were in God's plan and further I believe God would work to help them out of those painful deaths. "By his stripes we are healed" Jesus had to endure a painful death so we wouldn't have to. 1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. The idea "we shouldn't ever think we know His will" is the opposite of what you'll experience in twi. We ex-twi were taught that "the word of God is the will of God", so the Word would be the Lord's mind revealed. The word came "as holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. So the Word of God is the will of God and we can know it and believe it. This foundational belief is what you will encounter when dealing with your girlfriend and her parents. 2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: God has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of Him ... that knowledge is in the word of God. Doesn't mean we don't receive knowledge and guidance from the holy spirit, but what is already written God expects us to know and believe.
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Hi Phil, Thanks for your response. I just got back and am busy today and I do not post on weekends, so I'll do my best to respond to your post piecemeal and see if we can agree on some points: Essentially yes but with some important qualifiers from Power for Abundant Living (PFAL), the foundational class taught by Dr. Wierwille. Wierwille's first qualifier is "what is available". According to the class, one can't receive something that's not available. Hence the first step becomes to find out what's available. If something isn't available, you can "pray till your blue in the face" and you won't receive because its not available. Another important stipulation is having "needs and wants parallel". In other words , one must need it and want it.In the example you gave about Peter and Paul, which was why I asked if deliverance was available... we really don't know why they died in this way, but let's say it was in God's plan for them to die that way, and they believed that... Then they believed and received. That would be a case for "the law of believing" at work. Its not a case of "they had no faith" or "negative believing" as in they had doubt or worry that God wouldn't help them which I doubt. It all depends on what they knew and how they applied it in their life in that instance. So many variables are possible which is why even bringing up Peter and Paul in this case is unfair because we don't know what they knew at that time in their life. Not quite. The scriptures say it will work out if you both believe. That is a promise from the scriptures and was one of the scriptures that Wierwille used to teach this principle: Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. That is the promise. But who knows if when all the smoke clears you two will agree? That is the question. I agree , it doesn't apply in every situation. There are some things we may think it applies to when it doesn't. Some things we think it doesn't apply to does. I think the honest way to approach it is each situation would determine whether or not it was applicable. BTW, I don't believe "the law of believing on the negative side" I don't believe Jesus taught that. I can't find it in scriptures. There was one verse, Job 3:25 which was essentially the entire case for the negative side, and I can't see that being applicable in every situation in a persons life. Sickness and diseases and accidents can be beyond one's control and thought processes. I believe this was an error of PFAL. It really depends on what was going through their heads at the time. I can't say one way or the other. But if they knew they were going to die as martyrs, then they died having faith/believing... ironically "the law of believing" would apply in that case, but again who knows? On the other hand I don't know that God didn't forwarn them both and they possibly missed the warning... could be possible too...? I have to go now.. hopefully I can post more later but am busy today and am away from the computer on the weekends.
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Wing, Just use your common sense. Is it God's will that they suffer a horrible and agonizing premature death? I don't believe so. Golly, earthly fathers are better than that. I'm away from the computer for a few days so i won't be able to respond. Perhaps Mike can take over for me. :o :lol: