oldiesman

Wing, Wierwille's explanation on this topic makes more sense to me than the others. When that happens, it is my intent to support it over the others until a more sensible explanation comes along. Fr. John brought up Peter and Paul so I'd like to hear the answer why they died that way from his perspective and see if it makes more sense. The question I ask is this: was deliverance available to Peter and Paul?

Waysider, Was deliverance available? Brideofjc, with the exception of Jesus Christ, I disagree with that opinion. Jesus is the lamb of God to take away the sins of the world. God chose his son to die... it was God's Will... for that reason. And by his stripes we are healed. I believe God wants healing for his people through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and through the power of the holy spirit; THAT, gives glory to God; not misery and death. The law of believing may not make sense but the idea that God actually chooses people (other than Christ) to suffer and die a painful agonizing martyr's death for HIS glory makes even less sense to me.

Hi Phil, Did you ask Fr. John the same question "why did they die"? I'd be interested to know if his answer makes any sense or more sense than twi. I believe God wants his children to live in prosperity and health; i.e., wants the best for his kids in all situations. But when his children get killed, why do these things happen? TWI's attempt to explain this might be something like this: Peter and Paul, who certainly were great believers, died like this because for whatever reason they were not believing God for deliverance in that situation. Could they have been delivered? Yes. What would have delivered them? believing God for deliverance. Jesus said among other things: Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Mat 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Comparing the twi answer with answers from other religions is one reason why I haven't abandoned the twi teachings. If twi teachings deny reality, and make little sense, answers from other religions make even less sense to me. For instance, the answer from Fr. John (not putting words in his mouth) might be "it was God's Will". Doesn't make sense to me. God wills his children to die like that? I can't believe God would want his children being killed that way when he has given us power to overcome satan and tells us what to do to overcome satan. I believe God would want deliverance for his children from those situations. In any case it would be interesting to compare both views and see which one makes more sense to you.

Phil, I'll give my 2 cents worth... I think the first step is for you to decide if you want to learn about the bible "the twi way". Be honest with them and yourself, whatever you choose. You already know that twi is a big part of your girlfriend and her parents life. If you prefer not to learn more about twi at this time, then I'd be honest about it and move in a different direction as soon as possible. But if you'd like to check twi out for yourself, go ahead. See for yourself if its something you can live with. If after checking them out its not your cup of tea, then depart knowing that you have done the best you can do in that situation but its just not for you.

Phil, Welcome to GS cafe. It's unusual that the doctrinal differences don't come between you and your girlfriend. From the twi perspective, it's usually very important that relationships are with folks who are likeminded doctrinally. Anyway, hope you get some answers.

Warm weather is coming.. look twice for bikes, U.S. Version...

Ex, I do know how you feel having experienced the same feeling. But it was essentially up to the individual believer to decide for themselves whether they could love God outside of twi, and whether God loved them outside of twi. I think that takes one's own personal fellowship with God and Christ along with active faith to overcome that type of peer pressure. I guess I learned this principle early, since during my twi stint, I was "in and out" several times. However I do think that that fear is not all that uncommon with many serious religions. In retrospect I also would note that the ministry position in 1989 according to Craig's Loyalty Letter of 1989, stated plainly that it was possible to put God first outside of the way and walk in mutual love, respect, like mindedness, and one accord. In other words, exiting twi was not turning your back on God. And remember, this was when thousands of believers left the ministry at one time. There was no mistake about this and lots of folks believed they were still walking with God while exiting twi. Here is an excerpt:

I might tend to agree with you if twi wasn't the only group who practiced these scriptures in some form or another, but there are many other religious groups who do. Orthodox Jews, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Amish, just to name a few off the top of my head. Our country prides itself on freedom of religion and twi was/is a part of that.

"I can but you can't" Any other enlightening statements you'd like to share?

Cman, a principle among many Christian groups is not to be yoked with unbelievers. So if one chooses to abide by those principles, one does. If one doesn't , one leaves the group. That is what freedom of religion is all about. That is not hate. If it is, can you explain these scriptures: 2Cr 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2Cr 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, 2Cr 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Yes... "Freely Avail" was in the twi definition for years. The door always was open to leave, and many chose that. I will never forget the day Craig dismissed the entire 6th corps on Sunday March 6, 1976. However almost everyone was able to choose to recommit themselves to the corps commitment if they so chose. (I wasn't, but that was another story). Many didn't, perhaps close to 100 people left on March 8 if memory serves. This is not slavery, this is freedom of religion. The freedom to choose one's religion. Thank God we haven't seen military totalitarianism in this country.

Apples and oranges. One is freedom of religion, the other is military dictatorship.

I do believe the Corps was intended to be a lifetime of Christian service along with a proviso that Christian service was defined the twi way, i.e, move the Word, move the word, preach the Word, preach the word etc. It was assumed that the corps volunteer was fully persuaded to this end. The understanding that the Word as was taught in twi was the best interpretation of the word of God on the planet and thus the corps volunteer was totally committed to this and was expected to perform a lifetime of Christian service affiliated with twi on those terms. However it is reasonable to assume that if the word changed over the years, i.e., doctrinal changes, advancing legalisms, burdensome rules and regulations, etc.; the volunteer was in a position to make a re-assessment which many have done.

I think the best information out there for the public is the film "Waco The Rules of Engagement".Essentially proves the FBI deliberately killed the compound inhabitants with CS Gas in retaliation for the Davidians' lawful use of weapons in self defense of their lives but resulting in 4 BATF agents getting killed.The whole thing could have been avoided with just a little government restraint. But no, the feds had to prove they were the big bully on the block. Clinton and Reno should be held responsible for these murders. The lies of the federal government are appalling and apparent in this film. If you haven't seen it yet, its worth the time for sure.

Count me in on that mindset too...

I could never use someone's sins or hypocrisy as a pretext to abandon the truth. God forbid. soundgood to me socks.

I think those early cassettes are excellent. But to each his own. :)

The persistent sinning of the teacher and choice to be a slave to serve sin doesn't negate the truth in the teachings.

Yeah I saw that... you mean stuff like this from our friendly Roman Catholic Church... Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 5), June 29, 1896 St. Bonaventure (+1260)

The hypocrisy of the preacher doesn't negate the truth in the preaching.

Focusing on vp's sins doesn't make the word any less true. The sins of the preacher doesn't negate the truth in the preaching.

Twinky, all are sinners. We all are swift to sin; are hypocrites. In other words we all stink. That's why I continue to believe the emphasis should be on the greatness of God and his son's accomplishments; Jesus' broken body and shed blood, his bodily resurrection from the dead, his ascension to the right hand of God. Far as I'm concerned, those who declare His righteousness and have faithfully preached this truth year after year and continue to do so are worthy of teaching these truths, despite their sins or "cult affiliations." The sins of the preacher does not negate the truths in the preaching. Continue reading in Romans and consider these verses: Rom 3:9 ¶ What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips: Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness: Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood: Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways: Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known: Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God ...

Here are a few beliefs that I've kept from PFAL: That God loves me despite my sins (the palms of God)... How to get born again (Romans 10:9, 10)... Sonship rights (righteousness, sanctification, justification, redemption, ministry of reconciliation)... That I am completely completely absolutely complete in Him... The believers Power of Attorney God wants me to hold fast that which is good... God wants me free from fear worry doubt anxiety and all matter of oppression... Jesus Christ is the Way Truth & Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by him... There is One Baptism by Holy Spirit; water baptism is not required for salvation... Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Redeemer, but not God the Son... The believer is As He Is... Jesus Kept the Passover... Whatever a Person Believes Is Directly Reflected In What He Confesses... Whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive... Jesus taught believing... God wants his children to believe all the benefits He has promised thru Christ... Simon of Cyrene and the Cross Christ Bore... Pauls Thorn in the Flesh... Ekklesia: Bride or Body? God is our Sufficiency... Church the Great Mystery Revealed, Christ in You, the hope of glory... The Bondage of the Sabbath Day.... Body, Soul, Spirit; formed made created... The Unqualified Commitment... What is true worship... Filled to Overflowing.... Speaking in tongues... Why Division... The Final Victory...

The word is true even in your churches, denominations or so-called "cult environment". Just because we were with twi or in the corps doesn't negate the truth of the word or make our experience a hoax or a con. I'd say the same for folks in or out of church. All depends on the heart and mindset of the person making the commitment or performing the action. It's pretty simple. Consider these: Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Col 3:24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

I agree with you WhiteDove. Additionally from the spiritual partner perspective, I always assumed that the sponsoring was for the volunteer to receive training to later work for the ministry in some advanced capacity, not go through the entire training and then simply do your own thing and head off on your own orbit.