waysider

Oldies has posed the question:" What if , on a twi assignment, you sustain injury in a natural disaster? Like a hurricane or tornado. Do you blame twi then too, for "putting you in harm's way? The answer to this is :If the person giving the assignment was fully aware of the dangers of this assignment then yes. If a limb coordinator demands that you prove yourself worthy of GOD'S trust by driving through the "blizzard of the century" over very rural roads when the local authorities have already declared that only the most dire circumstances will validate travel and violators will be prosecuted then it is my opinion that said LC is purposely putting you in harm's way. Of course one must factor in the reason for such an extreme demand. Would putting cardboard on a broken window pane justify the 20 mile trip? Hypothetically speaking of course.

Oldies------ In your postings you talk of how people were aware of what they were getting into when they enrolled in many of these programs. I have to tell you in a direct way that this simply is not accurate. In fact, in many instances the opposite is true. What some of these programs promised and what they actually delivered would, in the secular realm , be considered "bait and switch" and deceptive advertising. When you are talking about toasters or stereo speakers thats one thing; but when you are talking about people who have burned all their bridges whether they be friends, family or career to get to this land of plenty only to find out it's just another cornfield and there is no easy way home, the answers don't come so quickly or easily. You have indicated that you were a WC sponsor at one point. Does it not embarrass or irk you in the least to see what the money you gave in good faith was spent on? Oh sure ,I know we were taught that the giving was our responsability and the stewardship was theirs and still don't you feel at least in part that you might have been duped? BTW did you knock on that door again were the occupant told you he would "kick" your arse"?If not, why not? If you have then knock again and tell him how Christ died and rose again so he could have eternal life. It sounds like it's in walking distance so you probably wouldn't even have to hitch a ride.

Roy------------the great bluesman,Muddy Waters, aka Mckinley Morganfield had a song in which the lyrics were "the whole world's fightin' about the same thing." holy hugs to ya' bro.

OM--------- Ever seen "Mississippi Burning"? Those kids went there with a mission to fulfil and a noble mission it was indeed. Could they have abandoned their mission and walked away? I submit that in a physical sense they could have done just that. Did they? Hell no! Why not ? Because they had the conviction to follow through with what they believed and thought it would make this country a better place to live in. GOD BLESS them for their sacrifises. I not asking you to equate our men and women of such programs as WOW, WC, FL and so on with civil rights activists . I'm merely trying to help you see they may have been driven by the same selfless motives, and desire to see people set free from spiritual bondage. The fact that they were victimized in the process in no way excuses the actions of the victimizers. I applaud them for taking action in the face of adversity.

Roy---------- Thank you for helping me to finally understand why "what's your sign?" never seemed to work as a pick-up line. Holy hugs back at ya'.

Eagle-------- As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us.--------(I got them there words from The Holy Book!)

WordWolf--------------- When I read your response to my post a little light bulb lit up in my mind. I had never really given much thought to how we may have been impacted by the communal living aspect of all this. True there were many who never went WOW or WC but they very likely interacted with people who did.Was the "commune" experiance a plus or a minus? I don't know. Perhaps it is why so many of us feel the effects so many years later. Perhaps it is why we feel so compelled to band together and help each other.I know this may all sound like one "grande" derail but this communal thinking , I believe, may have something to do with how we thought and how we felt about what we thought in and around the bicentennial year.It may also explain why people will say"Geez Louise , why didn't you just walk away? and not understand the depth of commitment we felt toward each other.

Did I mention it's also ILLEGAL? Didn't twi teach us somewhere that we are supposed to try to follow the laws of society? There was scriptural reference given I'm sure.

When I was a kid it was common practice for people to hitchhike. We even had hitchhiking "races" on Friday nights. A friend of mine who was headed for L.A. stuck his thumb out in Cleveland, Ohio And the first guy to pick him up was headed for,you guessed it,L.A. That's about it for my warm and fuzzy memories; now for some war stories. I got picked up one Friday evening after cashing my check at a nearby tavern. The driver made small talk that was obviously aimed at finding out if I had any cash. I picked up on this pretty quickly and ask to be let out. Instead of letting me out he sped up. Fortunately a car pulled out in front of us and when he screeched to a halt I bailed. As I walked away there was no doubt in my mind what he was up to. Another time I was picked up late at night by a guy had plans that were a good deal more frightening. I noticed he had a tire iron on the floor and wasted no time in picking it up and letting him know what was about to happen if he didn't pull over. Another time as I was climbing into a car, the driver heard screaming brakes and knowing he was about to be rear ended,slammed on the accelerater. He drug me ,hanging on for dear life, for about 100 feet. I was shaken and my boots were ruined but I was otherwise ok. These were not times when twi had directed me to hitch . Kind of makes you wonder though if I had seen things like this myself did noone at HQ level realize the dangers? A young couple to whom I have family ties were ordered to hitch to LEAD or something similar with an infant in tow! I like to think it all taught me more about GOD's grace than foolhardiness but that may just be the optimist in me.

Scout--------- After searching all my collaterals, sillybi, and manuals I have concluded that "spoil the grandchild" rule must be one of those "unwritten policies" from another thread. A darn good one too IMO.

A number of years ago a young couple who were friends of mine asked me to attend a business oportunity meeting they were going to present for a small group of people. Their description of what was to be presented was very vague . This vagueness was , if course , intentional. My suspicion was that this would be a recruitment meeting for Axway. The gentleman conducting the meeting stated very early on that there were to be no questions until the end. Sound familiar? Well, as the meeting progressed he showed how if Bob recruited Joe, and Joe recruited Betty, And Betty recruited Connie , and Connie RECRUITED----------in the end we would all be filthy rich. People raised their hands to ask questions as he spoke but he continued to assure everyone all questions would be answered at the end. When he finally revealed that the product this company sold was actually soap, an elderly lady who seemed harmless enough raised her hand from the back row. The man running the meeting let down his guard for just a moment and said "yes ma'am?' she immediately stood up and said "who the hell is supposed to SELL the soap?' It kind of makes me wonder "who the hell was supposed to LIVE the abundant life?" Not complaining-------just pondering.

WW---------Iwas in Fl of Ohio in 1976. If I stopped and thought for awhile I could probably recall several incidents. Mostly, though, what I do recall was the general tone of thinking at that time. We were really hellbent on the "urgency" of the times and the whole survivalist train of thought was rampant. In all fairness and honesty, I don't think this line of thought was unique to twi. These were the times of "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" "GOD'S Smuggler" ,"Thirteenth Tribe", etc. It seemed as though we had moved on from seeing spirituality on a personal level (PFAL, Challenging Counterfit, CF&S,etc. ) to seeing it on a national and even global level. Of course this sure made us all feel somewhat smug because we thought we were really seeing "The BIG Picture". We had a very large garden which we tended to every evening from about 6PM to 9PM and every saturday morning. Remember, we all worked "9 to 5" in the secular world. this garden was to be one piece of the self sufficiency plan. (side note) IT takkes awhole lot of swiss chard and turnips to feed fifty people. We also had a food co-op which was mandatory . We bought in bulk, Made alot of our own items such as yogurt, mayo., familia and so on. we cooked the same preplanned meals in each house and ate as a whole group every day. These were the same communal living, survivalist type activities that were being experimented with in many other groups beside twi.( perhaps some other FL could offer more specifics as I prefer to not make this post too long and boring. The difference between us and other groups doing this was that we, of course were doing it to save the world while others were doing it to save themselves.I'm just glad that as I typed that last thought ;my words were not the least bit distorted even though I had my tongue in my cheek.

Oakspear-------- It never even occured to me that the WC might be responsible for ruining the ministry or the movement of THE WORD. HECK! I thought all this time that the devil was supposed to take care of that.See what happens when you delegate?

TLB ------If VP and Dottsie were basing that choir opinion on how much heart you put into it, I just might have to agree with them. As for ROA72, the movie: I remember it well . It was produced ( and maybe directed,though I'm not sure on exactly on these two points)by Bud Morgan who if I am correct in my rememberance, did alot of sports related work for CBS. We ran it with free admission to the public and filled the audience with shills from the local branch. When the movie was over we ran a witnessing extravaganza, and everyone had plenty of green cards and pens for signing up new students. My displeasure was not with the movie itself or for Bud Morgan but rather with the way we decended on the audience like a pack of hungry wolves' I also found it rather humorous that when I saw the movie I thought to myself that being there didn't seem nearly as cool as the movie made it seem. That's Hollywood for ya!

I remember performing that song for an SNS many years ago. Whoops! I guess I just blew my cover. I guess some memories really are worth keeping., especially the ones where there's "music in the air ".

I sold an old gold telecaster vintage 196x for $50 so I could make the rent at the boarding house where I was staying. Iwas staying in the boarding house because I was sent into this area by myself. I had to prove myself worthy,I suppose, of the next program I would enter. I probably could buy the whole stinckin' house for what that axe is worth today. I guess I can be thankful at least that even though that decision was "muy stupido", it never endangered my or anyone elses safety or life. Maybe this really belongs on the guitar thread.

My sincere apologies to anyone in way productions who may have been offended by my referance. I really loved what you guys ( in the Greek that thar is all inclusive as to gender) were doing. It simply conjured up an image of a long forgotten skit.

Oldies------- thank you for prodding me to look at old materials that have been collecting dust for some time now. I think what your postings have demonstrated to me at least, is that what we were taught and therefore believed was influenced, in part, by when and where we heard them. ,and also from whom. One good example of this is the differences on retirement, savings, life insurance, etc. You obviously were residing in an area where these were ok.(lucky you). I personally recall hearing no less than VPW himself teach that these things were not for "real believers" and were a validation of unbelief. Where and when did I hear them? AC 1973. These statements are not in any formal text but,who knows, maybe they are recorded for posterity on one of the zillions of audio tapes from that era. On the issue of SIT being required for salvation; I believe you are correct in saying that noone ever came right out and said it. At least not in an official sense. Here are two verses that come to mind that were frequently twisted and squeazed to extract that thinking.: I COR. 12:3b ---no man can say Jesus is Lord but holy spirit (the gift) paraphrased from page 333 of RTHST. --This , of course, is refering to sit. -------Romans10:10----the mouth that confesses him shall live. (by live, the implication is eternally) And so because everything must fit with a mathmatical accuracy even though GOD never really said so,the implication is evident. There are ,however, countless referances in the twi materials that explicately tell us that sit is our only proof of Christ's internal presence. And so to the average twig goer of that time, SIT was the ultimate nametag.Oh and by the way ,are the neon lights really bright on Broadway? Just wondering.

thinking,thinking,thinking.--------For aclass that was presented by a so called biblical research ministry, why was there such a disproportionate amount of secular material? At one point VPW rattled off a string of one line "gems of wisdom" longer than The Great Wall of CHINA. "NO SCRIPTURE----- YOU JUST HAVE TO TRUST ME". If the lowly twig leader ever tried to interject a quote from Shakespeare, he/she would be hammered into submission with reproof for quoting a profane source. I can't prove this,YOU JUST HAVE TO TRUST ME!

It's like walking into a library and wondering which book to read first. Here's a short one to start. Then time frame is fall of 1975, the program, fellowlaborers. After our evening meal it is announced that our usual evening duties have been suspended because we have a much more urgent mission to pursue. We must destroy any documents that link specific names to the monthly newsletter.(in other words the mailing list). Some work the 3x5 cards while others go through various files. Another crew sets about the task of destroying the mimeograph plates.we are instructed that this mission is a top priority and we must approach it seriously as it's been suspected that the illuminati may be "on to us". When work is completed we are instructed not to discuss this event with anyone, not even amongst ourselves. More stuff later but for now I have to answer the front door. There are two guys with black suits and sunglasses ringing my doorbell. One has a violin case. Could they be with WAY PRODUCTIONS?

I'm still kind of new at this here coffee shop so I'm trying some of the things that have been on the menu for awhile. I stumbled on this discussion of CFS from a couple years ago. I was involved with this class both as a student and as an instructor. Now to clarify for any non twi reading this, an instructor is one who is responsible for such things as setting up chairs, finding a location to run the class, introduce the taped session and so on and so on. It is not someone who actually "instructs" in the true sense of the word. The one thing that most appals me about this class in retrospect is that when the so called "DR." ventured into a discussion of THE ORINAL SIN he prefaced his his dissertation with something like "I have no scriptural proof. You will just have to trust me on this . I believe this is what GOD has shown me". This ,of course is a paraphrase as it has been alot of years since I heard him say this. NO SCRIPTURE----YOU JUST HAVE TO TRUST ME. And trust we did because we thought he had an inside track. Now this is a very large question that has lurked in mens minds for millenia. He then went on to state that THE ORIGINAL SIN was not only masturbation but the physical consumption of the resultant "fruit". NO SCRIPTURE______YOU JUST HAVE TO TRUST ME. I should have packed my bags right then and there but I figured anyone who was that "tight" with GOD should be heeded. NO SCRIPTURE ---------YOU JUST HAVE TO TRUST ME! lol (@ myself)!

I only went to ROA through the '70's so I did not personally observe alot of what has been posted. Of course I'm not saying I doubt these recollections at all. I think for some of us who were no longer teenagers at this time and had seen secular festivals that were out of control parties, the ROA was like a breath of fresh air, an opportunity to go to a festival with the greatest music on the planet, great friends wall to wall, and no pressure to comform to the sex and drug culture we were trying to put in our past. How it came apart at the seams I'm not really sure but I'm pretty certain if GOD's hand had been on it as much as we were told we probably would be "headed for Ohio" right now. Slight derail: remember "ROA72" and how we used it to branch witness and then do a hard sell sign up when the lights came on? It was touted as the Christian version of "Woodstock, The Movie". HA and again I say HA!

ILB-------------You stated on your post that you felt like you were a rambler. May I most graciously disagree with you. I thing what you see as ramblings are valid points that many have pondered. You asked what doctrines/teachings may have set the stage for our thinking and tenets. I am reminded of how we studied math in a long past era of our lives. After basic arithmatic, we moved on to algebra 101. Without this foundation we could not understand any of the other mathmatical ideas. After all, what do we use to solve geometry probems, trig. problems, calc. problems, etc.? I hope the analogy makes sense. Early in the pfal class we were shown in great detail how the devil was able to deceive Eve. Bottom line was she "considered what he said". Now were in algebra 101. Never even consider. That's a twi parallel to the Pythagorum Theory. Your downfall starts when you start to consider, or so we were taught. If you can't consider, what's really left but to accept whatever is given you? Secondly, Annanias and Saphira syndrome. thou shalt never question the decisions of leadership lest GOD remove his hedge of protection and make way for the devil to consume thee. The rest,ILB, is just lots more math classes built on alg. 101. You also stated that the day may come when you no longer need to visit as part of your healing . I hope that day comes and you decide to stay anyway just 'cause the coffee tastes so good when you have it with good friends. I enjoy your so called "ramblings".

I have posted previously on this thread on what would probably be about page 6. My post alluded to a twig of senior citizens who were told to either disband or disassociate from twi. I would like to add that although noone in this twig "tithed", they did pass the HOP. Furthermore, they met three times a week and ran a very typical twig. By this I mean they had songs, announcements,believers meetings, teachings from class materials,and yes even SNS tapes. What I also failed to mention was that several had children and grandchildren who were involved in such programs as WC,FL, WAY COLLEGE,MINUTEMEN,etc. These folks really, really sacrifised family in the quest to move GOD's WORD. Perhaps some are even reading this thread. I know we often shield our kids from unpleasant reallities but maybe someone is recognising themself in this discussion and can add to the enlightenment.

As I follow this thread, one common theme seems to keep resurfacing. Many of us seem to think we have made lots of bad choices. May I humbly submit for you this thought. We chose to serve GOD, we chose to serve HIS people. We chose to endeaver to make this world a better place. Are these not admirable choices? No, I think the bad choice makers were the ones who chose to exploit our generousity, to exploit our dreams and hopes, and to exploit so many good hearted, dedicated sons of GOD. We are in good company on the exploited son part, if you get my drift. I wonder if Triumph The Insult Dog (David Letterman Show ) might not address them by saying "I Poop On You"! OK OK maybe the quote WAS a bad choice!