TrustAndObey

I honestly don't think it's available to "really" know anyone just by talking online. I've been online since the late 80's and early 90's.. Before there was an Internet, back in the ol' BBS/Tymnet era, and have made countless number of friends. But one thing is for certain, I never really knew any of them until I spend time with them, their families and/or their friends. Even just hanging with that individual was never enough, as most people put up a front usually without even knowing. I always like to get to know someone's friends, cause that usually speaks a lot about a person. Who they like to hang around and influence them speaks a lot about someone. That and they usually have seen behind the clouded "front", so you can get to know the person much better. The internet is great for getting to know folks you never met, to dialogue and all that. But a real relationship takes work. ALOT of work. I'm not just talking about "romances", but friendships as well. There is always give and take in a real relationship, and many people are led astray thinking they can get around that by just chatting on-line. But that's the world today. Most are isolated from even their neighbor. It really is sad. And I'm not saying the Internet is to blame, but it's more people thinking they can have the same closeness, the same type of relationship, the same benefit of a relationship without the work. My advice. Be careful. Stay in public areas. Always meet in groups. Get to know their friends and family. Never allow yourself to be isolated. And get a second opinion from your friends or family that go with you, someone you can trust that is honest and not afraid to tell you like it is. Relationships take time, so don't expect anything soon, and that means months at a minimum! But then, "on-line" relationships are just that, "on-ilne" and not real. It's not until you've shared the time, the warmth, the ups, and the downs, given some, and received some with the goods and the bads, that's when you know whether it's a real relationship, or just a facade. How many people in TWI thought your relationship with friends was real and would last a lifetime? And how many of those folks turned their back when they found out you left?

If you ask me, I think too many people make fellowship out to be more than what it is.. Fellowship! WHy redefine the term. Just cause TWI likes to call a fellowship where a meeting with the typical church liturgy is done, doesn't mean we have to run our lives by their definitions. Heck, I just enjoy fellowship! Fellowship with any and all those who believe. Whether at home, on the road, on the phone, it's fellowship! Course, I know.. It's great to set some time aside where everyone agrees to come together.. But for Fellowship, or for a religious liturgical meeting? Maybe it's just me, but any fellowshipping I do is dynamic. There are no "rules" of how it is to be done, it's just done and there isn't a heirarchy to climb nor a need for anyone to try and "assert" their power over another. Cause we are just fellowshipping! Hmm.. Maybe I'm just too simpleminded. Or just plain ignorant. I'll accept both.

I could have sworn a little birdy told me so... lol..

If Luther might not have believed in the Trinity, then he must have had a different reason for attacking all those who didn't believe it, writing as many letters as he did against the unitarians of hat time.

Just thought since we are talking about their "personal prophecy" tid bit.. How about another doctrine they teach.... Like God NOT being in control.. Who outside of CES has ever heard a Christian state that? I realize they want to explain how bad things happen. Hello, it's because God is allowing man to choose his way, and thus he gives them over to their own lusts and thus their own destruction. Not hard at all to realize that.. The devil will eventually do the same. He killed the Lord Jesus, had he known what would happen because of his LUST, he wouldn't have done it. But he just did the same thing in causing his own destruction.. I think God is in control, he just allows freewill, freewill that may just destroy yourself! But what about you? To me it's like saying why trust Him, because if he isn't even in control! Is he even God then or is He not?! (Or should I post this in the doctrine section?!) Oh well, I need my hand slapped once in awhile.

Ductape, But isn't that how they started.. Writing books, reasearch papers and selling them? Make NOT my Father's house a house of merchandise.. Well, I think our Lord who IS OUR LEADER, WHO IS OUR TEACHER, said it best.. The individuals in CES/STFI is what matters. THey are the body of christ. The orginasation for those who are in it need to stop thinking it is God's orginisation. All this ought to prove it to you. It is man made. Built with man's hand. Not built on the rock, Our Lord. It is built on sand. And as such it will crumble. Maybe take many years like TWI which is slowly dwindling, but it will crumble as all the things of men do. No, our rock is Christ. Our footing is in Him. People in God's orginsation do not start there own orginsation, they help those already in God's orginsation and need not set themselves up as their own entity. Our life is in CHRIST who is in God! Can you dig it?! The head of Man is Christ, the head of Christ is God! Was Paul not clear enough in his epistle? Orginsations made by men are for men's purpose, no matter how godly the person is or what their motive is. God is not into their orginsations. He is into His people. And His people who are called by His name, He created for HIS GLORY, not the glory of some man made orginsation, or so that some man can say he is their leader, pastor, teacher.. DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR TEACHER!! DO NOT CALL ANYONE ON EARTH YOUR FATHER!! Was not our Lord clear enough?!! We are a body of believers. EVery one of us. What hurts those in the CES orginsarions hurts all of us! What hurts those in TWI or any other denominational churches, HURTS US! Get out of the schismic thinking and get into the body CHRIST IS BUILDING! Here;s a hint. IT"S NOT BUILT WITH HUMAN HANDS! It's built by Christ who adds to the church those who desire to follow HIM. Our job is to reach and teach and share and help and ultimately GUIDE THEM to follow CHRIST NOT US! NOT MEN! If your pastor, if your teacher, if your head, if your leader is not pointing you to follow CHRIST, if he is not pointing you to NOT follow HIM, he is not someone to trust. MAN IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED WE ARE ALL FALLIBLE! So Why FOLLOW FALLIBLE PEOPLE? By the way, does anyone here want some orange juice?

MStar, Agreed! Good post... I'm not one to point fingers and say the individuals in CES are wrong, but I will point and say the fruit and mess they made is not of God... I make plenty of mistakes and will probably continue till the day I die, unfortunately. But there are two things I will never do. I will never have people follow me or trust me for guidance - cause Christ is our leader, and I will never start my own "organzations" claiming to have something I do not - clearer visions - for we all see through a dark piece of glass. I may offer advice, but I am not your adviser, I may start a work that others may continue in, but I am not the administrator of that work. Follow God, or follow man.. Really simple choice.

I do want to clarify something concerning their fellowships... I can't speak for every one of them, but the few that I know they really are loosely controlled. And I do emphasize LOOSE.. It is nothing like TWI in that in TWI the TC was controlled by their BC and they had to report everything to their BC and their BC was Corps that was controlled by their LC which in turn went to the Trunk Coordinator at HQ.. In CES/STFI, they have a very decentralized fellowship and really allow the TCs (if you want to call them that) do as they please. Their only "control" would be that they are made to agree with certain rules and regulations but it's really an honor system. No one checking them out and ensuring they are doing things as they agreed. I know this first hand.. THe TCs don't check in with anyone at the home office (HQ) all the time to give updates. They actually can go under the radar for a year and CES wouldn't know a thing they did, yet CES would continue to send new people thier way. (Course the Graesers did send out their scouts last year, their 2 kids to visit all the fellowships.. Only they were kids [despite the fact his son takes after Him and enjoys the limelight. gotta watch that ego.. You too Mr Darr] who were barely wet behind the ears. So I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions on that. Of course, be that as it may, they teach doctrines that aren't Biblical with many ties to TWI but some their own. They teach that "God IS NOT in control, nor all knowing".. Yeah.. Ok.. Whatever... That's their fancy way of saying Don't blame God for your faults. However it says a lot more to those desire to put their trust in God.. It's like saying why trust Him, because he isn't even in control! What kind of devilish thinking is that?! Is he God or is He not?! He may not control YOU because he has given you freewill, but he sure is IN CONTROL! Anyways.. Get on board with GOd and have him lead you to the place he desires for you filled with milk and honey in the end, or get on board with man and have him lead you to the pit. Really simple choice.

Interesting to see that at least something might be done in CES. I'm glad for that.. It's a man made ministry, so I really could care less whether the "ministry" stands or falls. Because God is still God. Jesus is still our Lord. And we still have life! And the true church will still stand. The word ministry in the Bible is the word for serving. Not a "Bible club" which to me is all TWI and CES and the majority of churches / ministries have become. Just because they know Jesus, even personally, doesn't mean they follow Him. And if they follow Him, they won't be following man or a man made ministry. The body of Christ is to be made up of active members following Christ (serving). And it ain't for serving Koolaid! When I first left TWI, I went to a CES fellowship. And I saw this problem first hand.. First it was with the Personal prophecies.. I remember they were trying to discuss for their next upcoming event how to make it avialable so everyone could get their personal "prophecy"(aka reading) done by Karen and one other person.. Of course they go to the scriptures in Corithians 14 about prophecy, but give me a break, everyone all of a sudden needs their palm read on what God wants them to do? What is the point? I don't recall Elijah going to a town and having everyone lined up so he could give them their own personal word of the Lord. And then they tried to teach everyone how to give a personal prophecy. Oh, don't worry if you mess up the first couple tries, it's a learned thing. Umm, yeah, much like Speaking in tongues with interpretation in TWI. I let one of their big wigs give me a personal prophecy only for them to be so far in left field I didn't know where they pulled it out of the hat. (And this was one of their experienced teachers of personal prophecy!) I told him so too, and he just chalked it up to a mistake.. A mistake?! That's man for you and man's ministry. (Ok women too). Course for any in CES, the latest Sower ought to tell you what Mark thinks about leadership. Just as much as the latest Way Mag gives you enough idea what their top leaders think of believing for miracles instead of trusting God. In the latest Sower about leadership, Mark likened it all to how much "influence" one has on others. And the highest leader is nothing more than the one who influences the most. And his idea of 360 leadership is that you were influenced by a leader (Namely the top dog, Him!) and now you influence others thus becoming a leader. So it's all about how much "influence" you can have on others. That's leadership?! GIve me a break! That's not leadership, that just trying to see how much koolaid you can get people to drink! And he sure has got a good group of CESers drinking the personal prophecy koolaid and thinking his wife is such a great artist, selling her prophetically produced portraits at their events. No different than TWI. They sell koolaid and call it God's Word. I'm not speaking about the individuals, but the man-made ministry as a whole. I have no doubt Scheinheit and Lynn love GOd. But CES is in the same boat TWI is. They lift the teaching of God's Word above everything in the ministry, thus sayeth the Lord, only it really is thus sayeth Mark or John or Rosalie or LCM. When will people wake up. The harvest is great. It's time to be working. Not making our own man-made groups with men at the helm leading it (having influence over others) and trying to see how he can keep leading it. Let him who wishes to be greatest among you be your SERVANT. Jesus never taught that it's for us to be serving the leaders. It's the other way around! You want to lead, then get out there and work. That's how you lead. Whether or not people follow and drink your koolaid. And even if they are influenced by your work, your not their leader, Christ is. So if any man is trying to "lead" people, they aren't following Christ, they are following their man made visions. Love, give, share, help, bless, care for, admonish, lift up, encourage, and teach all for the purpose of pointing them in the right direction to follow Christ, NOT YOU! If God wanted people made in your image, he would have done it. And that's all man made leaders do, is try and influence people to their image of what you should be. Christ is our head. Not man! Matthew 23:1-12 "Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe,that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." One is your teacher.. ANd it ain't Mark, John, Rosalie, LCM, your pastor, or anyone else. They may be great in influencing you, but the point is to get busy in following Christ, not the man who influenced you, who should have influenced you to follow Christ, not himself.

Just to clarify though.. In case some were thinking I am talking about letting her walk all over him. I'm not.. I'm just suggesting that he doesn't "run away" as some have suggested because she is in the way. I know a number of gals, even Corps gals, who listened to ex-wayers and ended up leaving. And leaving people just because of their association is definitely not showing people the same love God showed you in sending His son to die for you. I'm not saying we die for people that abuse us. But if she ain't abusing you, walking over you like a mat, then why would you run? Just keep your mind on who they are, and you can be the light that helps her.

Exactly! Well put.. TWI taught the five-senses approach of receiving what you want. Believe.. God teaches the real way which is not about you getting what you want, but about seeing GOd's will come to pass. Trust Him for He knows what you need even before you ASK [Emphasis ON ASKING]!

Moryan, Your situation actually sounds a little odd my friend. She doesn't currently go to a fellowship, and she is being sent information via mail. Weird.. When I was in the Way (Just a few years ago), those people weren't considered really even believers. Not going to fellowship?! We were suppose to let them know when we moved (actually get their advice even!), have the state(limb) corrdinator call the other state coordinator and make sure we were hooked up when we arrived at the new location. I have never in my life heard of waiting on them to mail something. Typical thing that would happen would be they would get your name and address and phone # and have someone local contact you. Mail?! You really sure about that? Because I think she could be waiting an aweful long time if that is the case. No one I know at HQ mails fellowship information. If they have your address, there will be a knock! Course, I look at the bright side. If she said she wasn't really "thrilled" about her old fellowship. And she certainly doesn't seem to be fully involved (because she wouldn't be without a fellowship for longer thn a month, that's their lifeline), you actually may just be alright. I certainly wouldn't run away. There is nothing to be scared of as long as you are informed and never forget what is true. In fact, if you are a true friend, you ought to be there till the end to try and help her. Be the one example that has a level mind and knows what is going on. Trust me, if she is that close to you, she will listen. Sure she is like many in the Way that think their theology is to die for, but so do many that leave the Way. That's just a sign of someone who has fear. Fear of looking at the other side and possibly being wrong. Don't worry about it bro. Be her friend. Take care of her. Help her. That's what we are all here for. TO help one another. To encourage, and lift one another up. Not to run away the moment something rough comes along. Be tough, be a man. But don't forget what is true. When I was in the Way. I remember the first month people were calling Headquarters their home. And I remember telling another person that was pretty new in the ministry that if I ever started saying that same thing, to kill me. That friend always reminded me of that when I'd talk to her. We lost touch over the years, but I still remembered. Just never forget what The Way. It is a man made ministry, ran by men, with men's thinking taught to willing receipients. It is not a replacement for God. GOd is our Heavenly Father, and our relationship with Him has nothing to do with what any man made ministry does. That's my advice. ANd it may be different than everyone else. But the love of God that is true is the type of love that one is willing to give of themselves to another to help another without the selfish motivation of receiving back. Show her what the true love of GOd is. Because I can guarentee, the Way will not.

Vegan, You said, "Oh yeah, insurance. We were told that if we had insurance, we were believing for something bad to happen" You know.. I don't ever recall anyone saying that.. But I sure used to think that when I was in.. Maybe it was inferred or something.. Hmm.. OH well.. There are so many things Health insurance is good for. Starting with lower bills when you go to the doctor for those things you can't avoid. Like check ups or physicals or having a baby.. Heaven forbid you ever get sick or your child is so perfect he/she will never get hurt.. I sure hope no one was the gullible.

Tom & Belle, I understand what y'all are saying. So, as I was always told, if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.. So with that, Ii will gracefully leave this here umm table, and go sit at the bar...

skyrider, Yeah... Sure.. I liked some aspects of pfal.. A very small minutia amount, you know the actual truth part which has to be weeded from the majority over arching man induced theology... But apart from that.. Umm, Yeah! I was in there to grow with God and help serve in God's ministry. I found that A) I actually was dying in my relationship with God and B) I wasn't helping anyone but a man made business that some called a ministry. OH well! So much for that!

Come on guys.. Don't you think you are being too harsh on CK.. I mean is it not all about speaking the truth in LOVE.. Agape.. That giving of ourselves to help one another. And here is a brother certainly led astray by a man, no doubt, but a brother none the less. And we ought to receive him with as much love and respect as you would your own. Granted he may have a lot of TWI screwed up fallacies dancing in his head. But, then again, didn't we all at some point in time.. Nah, I won't laugh at you CK.. But I will pray that the Father opens your eyes to see the truth. The truth that SIT is not your ROCK-SOLID connection with the Father and His Son. Your connection with your Father and His Son is no different than your connection with your earthly dad and the believers. No special secret language needed. Just talk to him. Why does religion have to make things so hard.. God made it all so simple! 2 commandments that all the law was on, love God, love your neighbor.. I know, the second is hard when faced with some people. But I think it's good to at least try!

I see.. Well, I'm in the category that doesn't exist which is: I really don't care! Never thought much of VPW when I was in, certainly don't care to think anything about him now. But I think all that stems from the fact that he was dead when I was in TWI. So what difference did it make to me. THe PFAL was great and all, but not like wow really cool stuff! I got over the PFAL class meaning much of anything to me pretty quickly even when I was in..

Well,, I look at it this way.. The more they start spending that money on advertisement and all, the faster they become broke, because everyone that worked for TWI for the past few years knows they are not receiving much ABS anymore, so their money is dwindling.. As soon as that happens, everyone will see TWI for what it was.. At least one can only hope right?! I know they have quite a number of millions still stashed, but a million ain't much these days!

Potato, I'll have to agree, I don't think that was ever a part of Way dogma. That if you did bad things you were never saved.. Since you were saved and there was no turning back, you could do whatever terrible things you wanted, only your rewards at the "bema" they taught were erradicated.. Oh well... SO much for everyone's rewards.. Cause that's what we are living for anyways, right? We live for rewards. I mean, God is my good ol cookie jar to believe for the riches and expect Him to pay out, and when it is all said and done I better have my rewards waiting for me! lol... What ever happened to a heart that wants to serve and give? Being Christ minded (Who GAVE HIS LIFE....)..

Well, I only went once WOW.. And then twice I went with the new "Way Disciple" program.. The first time i went WOW, I knew nothing. Barely been in the ministry more than a month. And that month was just taking the class. So I literally knew nothing. Since my WOW family was so against legalism, we barely did the program, so I think I actually learned some during that year! Hehe.. But then after all that, and I grew a few more years in the ministry, I got the thought that the first time really wasn't for God, so I'd go again.. This time to come out with only learniing and realizing how terrible witnessers everyone was. Trying to get drag people to fellowship and into a class I could care less about. I'd much rather see people's lives changed. But then, we were taught that was what the class would do.. Umm.. I never saw it happen! And after that, I went into the Corps, and the third time was a requirement for that. Thought I'd really get to help people if I went in.. Only to find how much they didn't want me to help people, they wanted me to help their business grow.. Scew that! So.. 4 times.. The guy has to be a masochist.. Either that, or just lonely / bored and wanted something to do.

Hmmmmmm... That's about all I have to say.. Pistis... A Greek word.. But from a Hebrew perspective.. I hate the definition The Way gives, I hate the definition the dictionary gives. I just hate the definition. Hehe.. The devils believe yet they tremble.. So WHO CARES ABOUT BELIEVING! TO me.. Pistis.. Is not about believing.. Many people believe so many things without action. To me Pisitis doesn't mean faith.. I see both of those revolving around the mind and the knowledge and the mindset.. Screw that. You can know and even "believe" or have "faith" that everything was said was true, that don't change anything! However, I think, and I DID SAY "I THINK", not THUS SAYETH GOD ALMIGHTY, but I think., so you are welcome to think differently, or bang me over the head for "not thinking", but still I think, (or maybe as LCM always said [people think they think, but they don't think[.. Umm anyways.. I think! Hehe.. I think, pistis is more of a TRUST.. A leaning on him. A putting your weight, your life, your everything into the hands of whatever it is you are trusting.. For me, that's how I'd much rather render pistis.. Trust.. (Hebrew word that actually means to "lean and put your weight on something] Trust in God with all thine heart, and lean not too thine own understanding.. Knowledge get's you puffed up, and believing doesn't do any better, but trusting puts your life on the line because either your trust and leaning on something stable and it will hold you up and withstand the atttacks, or your trust and leaning is on shaky ground and you will be falling soon.. Where's your trust and who are you leaning on? If it's God, then He will hold you up! So the question is, are you really trusting Him!

That's the business of The Way International for you.. Always willing to sell you something to keep their "business" booming.. Always hated those STS for that reason.. They always tried to sell something there.. Didn't Jesus knock over the tables in the temple and tell them to stop making his Father's house a house of merchandise??? Yet the bookstore continued to abound with more and more JUNK! Go figure.. They have this and that for sale, but the Word of God got sold out long time ago so it is virtually non-existent there.

Lindy, You asked, "I am still wondering about a pay scale. Anyone know?" To put it simply, the answer is NO.. The pay scale actually is not based on what title you have, but rather A) What your needs are [The smallest amount to meet those] and B) How long have you been in the Way [The longer you are in a leadership position the more you learn about option C] And option C] being the louder and more noise you can make about being paid less, they will be glad to make you happy as long as you keep quiet [to a reasonable point]. There is 1 exception to the above. If you are the President, and a really good friend of them, you get extra perks! Thus people like Donna, get a lot of extras "under the table", while the rest of staffers and WCs get minimum amount necessary (unless they are in the know of option C]

Yup.. I can relate to it all.. THe thoughts I used to have about people, because they didn't quite measure up to the standard of the WOrd I was taught.. Aren't we just human anyways?! I really feel sorry for those I kicked out myself.. (With leadership approval of course).. One couple was just cause they had debt and didn't sell everything just to get out of it.. Gee.. What was I thinking.. The paradox.. I have debt today! Bought a house.. And it's gonna be a number of years before that's all paid off.. One couple I was forced into lording over their entire life. Walking into their house demanding they clean it up the way I thought they should, cause there house was cluttered.. (I say forced, since my leadership said I needed to, and hey, I was the one "overseeing" them).. But was it really forcing, nah.. I went along with it with no problem since I was led to believe I was doing God's will. [The strangest thing: They thanked me years later and even sent me a multi thousand dollar check in thanks. If that don't make you feel elite, what would?] Damn that elite mindset. Damn the ego.. I'm an idiot.. ANyone want to walk all over me now? Hehe.. I need it from time to time...

Garth, You said "so, if he is allowing evil to rule (for his own 'good reasons', doncha know ) then he is either not onmipotent, ... or he is malevolent, ... or he is the cause of the evil, ... or he just ain't God. ..... then that must mean that basically the evil comes from him. Right? So, how does that make him righteous and pure, aka the verses in James (you know, the ones that talk about him being "The Light, and in Him is no darkness at all" and all the others that portray this?)" Actually it means He is the most loving of all (and in Him is no darkness), because he allows the devil to live yet promises protection and life to all those who come to Him. Therefore he wouldn't be resposible, for he gave you the choice. He is still God, and your creator. ---------------------------------- JohnIam, You said "There's another option. God's love allowed Adam's free will to give the devil rulership and dominion over this world, thus giving the devil access to do evil to God's creation. That's not a good reason, but it's a reason. God's love also allowed the devil to trip over his tail by crucifying Jesus and sealing his own doom." Actually that would be still the same option A, God allows evil to reign.... Didn't say it reigns over all.. Only those who allow it to reign..