TrustAndObey

As already stated, we are given eternal life because of the one who paid the price, as believed by Christians. It's like people asking about all those who never had the opportunity to know Christ. What about all those before Christ lived? What about those in South America after Christ lived? To say it is because of what you believe, is to once again ignore what God has done, and that is He sent HIS SON to pay the price, NOT YOU! Universalism is different in that it says everything is right.. Don't waste your time searching for truth, do what you want, cause you will have eternal life.. Does that sound the same as saying Christ died that all may be free and have life? No.. The end result isn't the same either, because Universalism says all will live forever.. Even if they didn't desire to have eternal life? To the Universalist, it matters not. And that is not what I said!

Do you know what "contrast" means Oak? let me just get the basic definition from the dictionary, which defines it as "the act of distinguishing by comparing differences"... So now.. Prior to me even mentioning a "doing the truth".. And prior to you saying in Post 40 that I am contrasting Truth and Doing what you want, where did I compare truth with what you do and distinguish the differences? One is what something is, the other is something you do. There isn't a contrast or comparison that can be made. Saying that my statement that "Truth can not be found ..... by those that do what is right in their own eyes" shows a contrast between "truth" itself and "doing what you want" is nothing more than straw and a twist of words, plain and simple. Comparison of the two, how?! lol.. Why don't you explain in your "clear writing" how I compared the 2? About as non-sense as if I said "John can't be found if you're Fred" and saying I compared John with Fred.. lol! Yeah, clear writing obviates most misunderstandings when someone uses the normal defintion of words. Such as truth and contrast...

I guess I will just have to disagree here. The man who pushes a kid out of the way of a speeding car and being killed, foreknowing that would happen, certainly didn't get anything POSTIVE out of it.. In fact, he's dead and will no longer receive anything......

Actually I'm not even sure I understand this whole "getting into heaven" thing.. I don't recall any scriptures about getting into heaven in the Christian canon. Now if we are talking about eternal life and all, then I understand, but getting to heaven as far as I know is a man made belief not written in any Christian Bible.. The thing about salvation is that God says it is not by works. If your reason for "being saved" or "going to heaven" or "having eternal life" is you *&%^#&%$^#*(.. Then it is by works and you have just dismissed the real reason.. Because God says it is by a work that someone else did. His name was Jesus. It has nothing to do with what YOU do, it has everything to do what HE ALREADY DID! And because he did it.. Well, we are made righteous and have salvation.. Does that mean everyone receives eternal life (or goes to heaven, wherever one gets that belief)? Of course not... Because God won't go against freewill. If I don't want to live forever, guess what? God won't make me!

Bramble, I did not mean this in a demeaning way, so I apologize if you think I did.. My only point is that Christianity is represnted most of the time incorrectly. Groups that call themselves Christian is a farce to begin with, as a Christian is just noted as one who follows Christ and has many differing dotrines and believes that are not necessarily 'Christian' originating but sometimes more 'group" originating. Much like Wiccan with it's many paths, only "Christian groups" usually are at odds with one another sadly enough.. Some groups put more "emphasis" on their doctrines/paths than others. Some are more open than others.

Actually Oak, you need to go to your post #40 in which you said, "You keep bringing up the contrast between people doing what they want to do, and this "truth"...." This is where "doing the truth" came from.. There is no contrast I ever brought between "doing what you want".. and 'truth".. But this is where it all began and where my reply began responding to your question.. And could just be a misunderstanding of words... Just so we are all clear.. And there is only one point of yours I ever talked about.. "Why does someone have to be wrong?!".. That's the only one.. No belief on truth, nothing about doing something, no contrast. Everything else is your mis-understandings of what I said..

Desire and requirement are two different things. If you mix the two up, you have works! Universalism is the acceptance that any belief is ok, aka, believe what you want, do you what you want, call it your religion, and now were ok.. That is completely different than a heart that strives..

Hosea - "I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and ackowledgment of God not burnt offerings..." Psalms 40 - "Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done,and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered. Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire;mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. " The law was for the lawless who continue to keep "part" of it to today,and so they may remain in their self-righteous attitude attributing their "works", even works of believing, till their dying breath. The Jewish/Christian God is a Father, a Father who gave. A Father who cherishes and cares for His works. But like many who do want they want, those works that were made forsook their creator, and all the Father desires is they return back to Him that he may love and care for them. Mercy amd acknowledgment. Pure and simple.

I am not sure I can really answer your question there... I don't use the phrase "doing the trutth", although I am sure I have heard it used before in TWI. I also did not bring the phrase up in this discussion. It wasn't until Oakspear asked me my opinion concerning the phrase that I responded.. Doing the truth is nothing more than a cliche to me.. A 'catch phrase' used by those who think they know the truth and therefore are doing what is right (mostly those who are self-righteous in some sense of the word)! Only, as Christians we would be wise to realize that the Apostle Paul said we see through a dark glass for now.. While there are some "truths" I think we can know, there are more things we believe. As most Jewish rabbi's will readily admit, there are always more questions than answers., however it is learning to rest in what God has revealed rather than being blown about trying to figure out what He has not.

I see you haven't a clue about what Christianity is really about. Only what the religios self-righteous ones talk about.. Has nothing to do with picking a religion or believing one thing as opposed to another.. That all goes back to making Christianity a "works" based religion. Based on you doing this or that.. Believing this or that.. Nah.. Not according to the Christian scriptures it's not. Only the self-righteous or ill-informed ones believe such a thing..

Yes, I am well aware of what a straw man argument.. But it's hard to have straw when you're not actually arguing against something, only it was your perception that I was, thus the reason why you perceived straw! I just say burn the straw and get on with life! lol "A subjective perception of the truth".. Sure.. Lots of people with those. In fact, I'm sure there are things in my life I regard as 'Truth" that is not.. Only, my whole point since the beginning, is there is truth, whether someone knows it or not is an entirely different discussion all together, and that not everyone can be right (except in their own eyes). You asked, what is "doing the truth" in your opinion?.. I was actually just repeating your words.. Doing the truth.. One would have to know truth to do it. But it has nothing to do with any point I've made. But if one were to know THE TRUTH, then I guess it would have to be something that can be 'done" and therefore action is being taken to do it.. lol.. But again... No, my statement about serving one's self as opposed to others has nothing to do with 'DOING THE TRUTH" - whatever one views that as..

The fact that you missed my point is the reason you felt their was straw. The straw was based on your assumption I was making a point from other things I said which I was not making a point out of, else it wouldn't have been built with straw! However, saying that "some" truth is subjective as I already said is basically saying there is no truth since it is an oxymoron for their to be such a thing as subjective truth. Relative truth sure, but subjective truth? No... That goes against the definition of "truth' that has been around for centuries, unless of course you would like to re-define the word "truth" as so many people like to do these days to suit themselves. So if you want to re-define the definition, then sure, have your 'subjective" truth.. A rose by any other name is still a rose, And that which is not a rose by any other name is still not a rose.. Speaking of "unverified truth" as being truth is a waste of time, because from what you said, what you really mean, instead of truth, is belief. And one's belief is not necessarily truth (except in your "re-defined" language). I do not say 'There is a God" and call it truth. I call it a belief. To say it is a truth, can only be done when verifiable proof is given.. And yes, you can tell what is 'truth' and what is not, because truth is verifiable. It may be relative, but it still verifiable, else it is not truth, it is called "belief" or "hyposthesis" or a "theory".. And by any other name is still the same. The contrast I bring up is not between those "doing the truth" and those doing what they want. I think you once again have my point mixed up in the straw you conjured up in your assumptions. The contrast is regarding those who serve themselves and those who serve others. That's all. Simplicity! No sense in conjuring up extra assumptions.

This is one of the things I confronted Rosalie and the BOD face to face at TWI on.. And their response? 3 fold: a) It is the culture today compared to Jesus day. (i.e. We must be conformed to the rules of the world culture) b) Doc Vic tried to make it available freely and he said it didn't work. (i.e. We live by man's ways rather than God's) c) People appreciate it more when they have an investment in it (i.e. Because a genuine love for God and hunger for truth probably isn't there, let's force it) It's the most ludicrous, stupid, idiotic thing these self-proclaimed prophets of God have done. Exalted their dogma, their doctrine, books, magazines, and teachings aboce God's and made merchandise of God's things.. Christ said what? "Freely you have received, freely "CHARGE MONEY!"'? That's their motto.. But rather He said Freely GIVE! And the TWIT's BOD's response? What has God given you freely?! Like hello?!! LIFE! And everlasting at that. for starters.. Instead Jesus turned over the tables in the temple and said "Make NOT my Father's house a house of merchandise!".. Ok.. So what do we do.. We go right back and make his house a house of merchandise! Jesus gave his life.. His very blood and sweat, and LIFE.. What are these guys layed back in their arm chairs sharing their version of "truth" for a price giving to people? It sickens me every time. And then they have the audacity to copyright their work as if it is their own! God's word they expounded upon is owned by them! All I have to say is "Thanks!". Because that means it's YOUR WORK and NOT GOD's!! So I don't want it.. People genuinly giving from their hearts isn't the problem, it's the requirement of money for the things of God, that God gave His only son to die for and we want to now charge money for it! Christ died that we might be free. But wait, their's a charge for that! Who are we?! Just cause colleges and university charge for teachings?! Just cause the world does it, we have the right? Sure, you have a right, but it doesn't make it godly! In fact it goes against what Christ said, 'Freely you have received, Freely give!'.. The reason they do it is to support their ego they call "THEIR" ministry. A Man-made ministry that is doing what they want to do (only they say it is doing what God wants them to do).. I have no doubt they do 'some' good in the name of God, and whether in pretence or in truth, I am thankful Christ's name is preached. However, just cause they have the right, it doesn't make it right. And according to the scriptures, according to the lives of those who are written in the scriptures, they gave of themselves, their very life, not requiring one penny.. That's genuine. The rest are man-made MOG's that have too much time on their hand.

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I agree, I wouldn't vote any of them as one is too light and one is too harsh. They should not still be leading, yet they should not be taken to the cleaners. As Billy said, The love of God is what we ought to manifest no matter who we are dealing with. Love your enemies, Those were our Lord's words.. However, these are not our enemies, just misguided believers IMHO. As for Hebrews 13:17.. A very poorly translated verse used to prove there are those who "have the rule over us" in the body of Christ. However, that is not the case. We are all called to submit to one another, submitting to those who are leading is no more an issue than submitting to any and all who walk with our Father and Lord. However, the words "OBEY" is not the normal Greek word for obey.. Instead it is a word meaning to be persuaded or to trust. And there is no such thing as "submitting to their authority", that was added - 'to their authority' is Not in there.. Someone once better translated it as, "Trust them that are leading among you and submit unto them: for they diligently watch for the sake of your souls..."

You missed my point entirely Oak.. It has nothing to do with proving 'my version' or 'my belief". You asked the question, why does someone have to be wrong?! That was my point.. There is a truth. What I think is truth? No.. But there is a truth and I doubt anyone has it 100%! And there is a right and wrong. Very few believe there is no right or wrong. Thus no truth at all, and anything goes in life... More believe there is an absolute truth, and their truth is what should rule the world.. However, a good majority just believe there is an absolute truth that they only know some of and they work towards knowing throughout their life. And another majority think truth is subjective, and your right and wrong could be just as right as the other persons even though they don't agree with one another. And thus why does someone have to be wrong?! Yes, belief in Santa is a religion. As I already mentioned the defintion of religion from the dictionary, "a set of beliefs that one aligns themselves to and that guides ones life." Religion doesn't just incorporate "spiritual' beliefs or beliefs that are really 'blind faith' assumptions, but also sets of moral 'laws" that define communities whether or not they come from some "higher power". You can't say truth is subjective and then turn around and say some actions are just wrong. That's contradictory, unless you are referring to some actions being wrong only in your eyes! Thus subjective truth is nothing more than an oxymoron, and really there is no right or wrong except what you like to 'label' as such but it really doesn't exist. Can you prove it exists? Or are you trying to say only 'some" truth is subjective? Maybe that truth which doesn't align with your truth is subjective?! What amount of truth then is subjective? And who decides on what truth is subjective? You said that even with a God, truth is still subjective, if it was objective, then their wouldn't be the arguments that there are. However I beg to differ. The arguments there are have nothing to do with God's truth being subjective, the arguments there are is the subjectivity of their either 'being a God' or whether what God's non-subjective truth is. The question on what is God's truth is much different than saying that 'even with a God, truth is subjective'.. Two different things. Do I believe in a God, sure! Do I consider myself a follower of Yeshua ben Yahweh? Sure I do.. However, my beliefs don't cause me to "persecute" others of differing beliefs. I don't consider myself to be any different than the rest of mankind, of which there are basically 2 groups, those who have a "higher power' for which they live for (be that a God, a nation, a wife, a job or whatever), and those who live for themselves. While some try to serve 2 masters, themselves or others, ultimately one wins out.. And honestly, that's what religion usually always boils down to despite the labels.

Is not religion defined, however loosely, as a set of beliefs that one aligns themselves to and that guides ones life? Belief that there is NOT a God is just as much a religion as the different religions whose belief is in different gods.. Be it as it may, everyone has a belief system they follow religously and it effects every part of their life. To Hitler, his religion was all about forming a master race. Maybe to some that is immoral, to others, it was a religous decision that many in Germany followed willingly. And I'm sure most have read enough about how Hitler used Christian scriptures to back up his point. But it all comes down to labels. Stereotyping everyone because they say they are 'Christian". When the word Christian is a man made term that has been used to describe everyone from Hitler to Mother Teresa. And I'm sure no one is going to put these two in the same boat. The same with Islamics. And that's just the tip of iceberg. Religion IS man made! That's not to say the belief in GOD is man-made, but any set doctrines/rules/beliefs concerning Him is man made (including the belief He is Not). In the end, it really has nothing to do with religous labels, but really what everyone sees as the effect the person had which was a result of their belief, their relogion. The problem is, the moral (or immoral) question always arises, and without a set "truth" it is all subjective. Without a God, then truth and what is right or wrong, come only from your self made belief. The same is true when proving or disproving someone else's religion. We view other's based on our own belief and religous system. And without a 'Truth' standard, there is no right or wrong religion, and as such, everyone can believe as they choose thus doing as they please, because it really is just your opinion. And Hitler's perfect race may just someday become a reality when they have enough of a 'higher power" behind them, be that nuclear weapons or some actual superhuman "being" and there is nothing wrong with that, at least in their religion! No, the only way to prove a certain religion is similar to those records in the Hebrew Bible, where the Egyptians prayed to their God and Moses to His, and who actually won out.. Or Elijah and the prophets of Baal.. Unfortunately, most don't see these kinds of things every day.. And really, unless there is a need, you never will, because most people's minds are already made up on what they believe is Truth.

Just because it's easier to do what YOU want, and believe what YOU want to believe, and ignore everything else in life, doesn't make it right and true. And yes, someone has to be wrong. The fall of man is just that, those who do what they want. Unless you continue to enjoy being blind to that fact every minute of life. I'm not talking about the fall of man with Adam and Eve which is just a shadow of what happens every day. People doing what they want. Believe as they want. Kill as they desire, steal and rape as they desire. Start wars and terrorize as they desire. Trust me, it's all as THEY DESIRE, and only rarely has to do with some religion indoctrination. And usually that's just the front they play or some person controlling them (doing as THEY desire!). In the end, everyone does what they do because they desire it to be so. There is such a thing as truth. And it has little to do with doctrines and laws and commandments. But it does exist. However it will never be found by those who do what is right in their own eyes. Because by doing so, you have blinded your ownself from knowing it, and set yourself up for only knowing that which your own self desires, which is no different than most of the world that destroys itself everyday.

Why does someone have to be wrong? Well, they don't have to be Oak.. No, that's fine. Enjoy your life where everyone is right.. Including the guy who breaks into your house and steals your goods. He's right you know.. He needs to make a living. So, sure.. Believe as you want. Everyone in the world is right. Everyone has a right to do as they please. Murder, kill, steal, or be nice and friendly and not have what you want. Who cares. Everyone's right in their own eyes! Sure. So stop complaining next time the governemt wants to raise taxes, take away your property, and everything else you do. They have that right, and you shouldn't be complaining because no one has to be wrong, nay they are all within their rights as humans tht live according to themselves!

The only thing I see we can 'produce" is fruit of the spirit. Not manifestations.. That's God's job!

Yup, very interesting read. Just proves once again, people who are accountable to no one will do whatever they please. They may have done all those attrocities in the name of God, but it's no different than the murderers in prison who think they are God, except for the fact that these try and make it look like a 'righteous' act, only the ones who started it knew it wasn't. What is righteousness anyways to those who don't believe in God? And what is right or wrong?! Only an opinion that many will disagree and probably fight over also. Heck, murdering isn't wrong, if we are just made from some natural formation, than anything we do is just plain natural! Killing, stealing. I mean, what's the purpose of life? To enjoy it to the most while your're alive right?! And maybe that enjoyment is to kill, steal, and destroy. Sure.. Let's get busy doing that, cause there sure isn't any reason to do otherwise. To those who started the crusades, that was their way of enjoying life. Go conquer, destroy, and abolish nations.. What's wrong with that? Just cause you don't agree with their way of life, just cause maybe even a majority don't agree, who cares! The only thing one can be accountable to is a higher power, so unless some higher force, nation, country, or bomb comes along, it will never stop! And the terrorists keep on terrorizing, because as they have said themselves, it's FUN!

Oakspear, I know there are many Christians that feel the chief benefit is a "get out of judgment free card" as you state, however, the Christian Bible actually says all will be judged, including those who trusted God. However, I do understand where you are coming from, and I know a good amount of Christians are Christians because of what they get. Eternal life. Christianity has become all about 'being saved' and having life everlasting. Only, when I read the scriptures, I don't see that as God's heart at all for those who trust in Him. I don't think a prpoer foundation for judgement has been set at all in mainstream Christianity. Most are still under a law filled undertanding. We do this and that, and we get saved. Even those who think it is just by believing on our Lord Jesus, God's son., by faith and not by works, still have the same view, a law that says do this (believe) and you get this (saved).. When judgement in the scriptures is far from a law based mentality, for the law was made for the lawless not those who trust in God. And lindyhopper, I think you have a valid question, why resurrect them only to knock them out again. I guess it could seem counter productive. But vengeance is God's, and it is said they will be cast into the lake of fire. So just maybe, "maybe", a form of final punishment but with the opportunity to first repent. I don't know, but I trust God has an answer. God really never had a plan A or plan B. That is a misunderstanding of scripture. He had and continues to have one plan. That plan was from the beginning and will not change, and it says God does not change. It says in the Hebrew scriptures that God desires mercy not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. He could care less whether or not one kept the law, it was for the lawless. What he cared for and continues to care for are those who will acknowledge Him as their God. Whose desires are His desires. Not different than a Father and His sons.. He desires they acknowledge Him as their Father and seek His love and affection, rather than go do their own thing. That's all. But people get caught up in the law. The thou shalt, and shalt not. When really God's heart is a heart of love and mercy with the desire that we might acknowledge Him as our Father and seek His love. Everything else is a distraction brought about by men's thinking and understanding. The Jews were great at that, adding laws upon laws, rather than a heart to love Him. So then we shall all be judged. Only it won'y be according to some law and how well you followed it. But then we can believe what God said and seek Him, or believe that man is on his own - made from some natural forming, in which case rules do not matter, killing, stealing, who cares, theres really no one we have to answer to, we do as we please and who we stomp on in the process doesn't matter, they die, we die, who cares, in the end we all die!, so we might as well live it to the fullest now...

I'm with you on that Oakspear.. I think glossalia (toungues and/or speaking) was another way ve in der vay were taught to force God to do what we desire. First it's believing things into fruition, now it's speaking and what you speak even though coerced by man was God's doing... I have no doubt that the apostles spoke in other languages as the spirit (GOD) gave them utterance... And I have no doubt Paul spoke in other tongues more than the rest.. However, I have high doubts that it was anything similar than what we know today as speaking in tongues where we by our desire force God to do as we please. Nope, I think God is in control and it is HE who energizes HIS spirit IN us and how that manifests itself is nothing we humans can put in a stupid man-made box.

From the looks of it 26x26 feet, doesn't sound like much of a house, more like a large shed... Are German houses that small?