TrustAndObey

Just wondering here for a moment, because I think that is a great question and thought.. But, now, if God did die.. I mean, he was really dead. Died for us. Completely. Gone. Poof... Umm.. Then there no longer is a living God, and how would he come back?! I mean, he did die then right?! Or maybe, we're not talking about a real death, just being fleshly wounded?! To me, that's what comes to my mind that certainly makes the already mysterious Trinitarian logic, even more non-sensical. That one person of this multi-person entity which is considered 100% the entity God, dying one hundred percent, but then, not really, cause it was just the Son part, and umm yeah.. Well, anyways.. Maybe someone can help explain it?? I know I know.. It's a mystery... And human minds can't know God.. Which I don't doubt we can't know God fully. But umm, isn't the point of the scripture, in fact, isn't the reason Christ came, it says is to make God known!! To bring us to Him that we might know Him. That we might have a relationship with Him? In fact, and correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't that one big thing that separates Christianity/Judaism from all other 'religions? This isn't a "way of life". It is a relationship with a living GOD! You find me those who have real live and living relationships with their Creator, and that's someone who I want to know!! (On a side note, I really am not talking about those who have relationships with the devil spirits.. Had an aunt that was a witch, an the stories that could be told.. Yeah, real power.. But umm, scary power! REAL SCARY!)

I have no doubt they ought to be silent. As quiet as a mouse. Not a peep should come forth.. That is as long as they keep their mouth closed.. But once they open it, I have no doubt they should speak! lol.. Anyways.. Someone whom I don't completely agree with on everything, but I think has some great insights in some things, a man named Frank Viola, I think he has an alright summation that kind of is my POV.. Since it is too long, here's a link.. Women quiet - never

But you have to admit at the same time of Kurios being used for a deity, it is also used for non-deity, just as Theos is used for humans and non alike. Also, the term and understanding of a "deity" is not a Jewish understanding. It comes from polytheists. Whether people want to bring it into Christianity is up to them.. I'd rather leave it out...

But this is the WOG we are talking about.. Only second to the MOGFODAT! ...bow... Now, give me your money!

Oak, It almost sounds like you're moving from Trinitarianism into modalism(sabellianism, oneness, triunitarianism)... Mother, maiden, and crone.. Yup, that's more triunitarian rather than trinitarian, which is what the old water and its three forms, 3 leaf clover, egg yolk and shell analogies more aptly define and is considered a heresy to those who hold to the 'orthodox view' (Whatever that means...... lol) 1. What is your understanding of the Trinity? One being, 3 separate but equal persons, Each being 100% fully God and God being 100% the person. (God being fully Jesus and Jesus being fully God, God being fully Father, and Father being Fully God, yet there three separate persons since the Father is not the Jesus!). And to try and give it more detail, it's just a mystery that no one can define, and to try to would only delve into the modalism and other non-Trinitarian views. Of course the Trinitarian view has changed somewhat from the days of Tertullian to now.. As Tertullian's view did fit more the modalistic view. 2. Does one have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian? No... No one scripture defines the Trinity, it's an amalgamation of scriptures, and as such is promulgated as a synthesis of scriptures required to define it. And since many other "different" synthesis of scriptures can say something contrary, I don't believe God would require any one to have a view on a subject that must be synthesized by man to understand. 3. If one does not believe in the Trinity do they believe in "another Jesus"? Depends on your definition of "Jesus". 4. Where is VPW's JCNG book accurate / inaccurate? I would say it is a very poorly written book. It made up things to fit into holes that wasn't understood by the author. Take John 1:1.. His take on it was completely inaccurate. Didn't even take into account anything from the Greek, but rather had their own idea of this word meaning this here, but means this in the next sentence. Gee, a first grader could do that. If we did that to the whole Bible, this word means this here, but this over here, it could say what we wanted! Well, that's what VPW did anyways! 5. What turns have your beliefs taken w/r to theTrinity surrounding your involvement in TWI, in and out? I was a Trinitarian growing up. Started studying scripture prior to meeting those in the Way. Realized the Trinitarian belief was man synthesized and didn't hold any more ground than some alternate views. Joined the way, and kept my view, left the way, studied the Trinitarian subject in depth. And still hold somewhat the same view. Jesus has always been my Lord. I serve Him. And He serves His Father, our God. And I don't nit pick and get into these fights about trinitarian/non-trinitarian unless asked. Doesn't make as much difference as people make it out to be (That view was changed, since TWI era was the most Biblical Fundamental viewpoint of it's what does the Word say.. Nahh. Know God, spend time with Him, He'll lead you in the right direction..). ust get to know them both!

As stated before, anger and love are not opposites. You can love and be angry quite easily at the same time. In fact, it's almost a normal thing when you have unruly kids! lol.. Also as stated before, God's love is not about being nice and friendly. It's about taking care and giving people what they need. Sometimes a friendly smile, sometimes a stern look, sometimes a good face melting to help you see the seriousness of the situation. And when there is nothing more you can give them that will help, removing them may be the only choice in hopes that others will learn from it.. That's all.. Love. Yes, not as the world teaches, but as God demonstrates day after day. Was Vp evil, sure.. Did he repent, doubtfull. But withholding forgiveness because you wish to prosecute him YOURSELF, really does no good for you. To hold onto that resentment, anger, and what else. Only hurts you my friend, only hurts you. Doesn't do anything for him, he's dead. Doesn't mean you stop informing others of his evil deeds to warn them, it just means, you've given it to God to handle his final judgment. From there, warning others, helping others, that's what God has us here for. But if we never forgive those who persecute us, then we're only hurting ourselves, and that's why God says to forgive, He wants to help you, because God loves you!

Rascal, I know you were talking to Ben. But, while God may turn people to their own destruction, their own evil and the consqeuences people bring on themselves. He still loves them, and sometimes that love is to stop them. Just as a misbehaving child you sometimes have to take out of the game. Anger and love are not antonyms. Neither are they emotions. Well, unless you want to define it as such, but then we are no longer talking about God's love, we are talking about the world's love, and the world's anger. Greek thinking places thoughts and emotions into words, Hebrew thinking was concrete, things you can see, taste, and touch. See my previous post about love. Yes, there are those who walk so far away, their hearts turned from God and it doesn't matter what God will do, they will not repent, thus unforgivable. Not by God's choice, but by their own choice. God is always willing, but people are not. Just like our own children. We can love them, care for them, watch over them, but some, they walk away and will have nothing to do with their parents. They get that whif of freedom and doing things their own way, and care not to do those things you say, no matter what. Then those who may walk away, taste of the good life, and then realize, gee, my parents were right. Well, we're always there for them at any step, but for those who hate their parents, and walk further and further away, they soon get to that place where it's about impossible for them to ever change and come back full circle. Yeah, it hurts, but it's possible for kids to do that. Many times, it those kids who even come back to say Hi, but their hearts could care less what you say and do. Their actions look nice, but they really don't love you, they are just 'pleasing you' to get their way..

Geisha, I really hate the saying "chapter and verse", but umm, I have to say, I don't think you'll find that anywhere in the scriptures, that "OUR" hearts are only evil continuously.. Now, maybe you are referring to prior to the flood and it mentions that "THEIR" hearts were. Thus the reason for the flood. But umm, our hearts.. No.. I think you are mistaken in that. And if you don't agree, that's fine. I can agree to disagree. I just don't see any evidence scripturally for that. To also say God is able to cause all he chooses to repent, must also be taken with the fact that God will not force a person against their will. So while he could probably force everyone to, that's another topic. How do you know Paul's heart wasn't in the right? Religiously misguided, killing Christians, sure.. But that's doesn't mean his motive, his intent, his heart was to go against God. Could be just the opposite. In fact, I consider him a man that had a love to do God's will, a Pharisee of the Pharisee, did everything to the T he knew was right, sat at the feet of the greats to learn and to act, only to be led by them vipers to do what he didn't realize was against God and did their evil will. And it took Christ actually appearing to him to make him realize, the ones whom He was persecuting wasn't the ones in the wrong. Sometimes, it takes that. Only God knows. That's why we leave it up to Him to lead, because he knows what each person needs. Also, just to make the distinction here, the topic of the thread. There is a distinction between those who repent with their mouths and actions, but have no repented from the heart. Many who look and act holy sometimes are the most vile people in the world, and sometimes those whose heart is to help can make mistakes that can cost people their lives. And yes, by their fruit we will know. Not their actions. There is a difference. The Vicster.. Well, his fruits are now known. The Way, being the fruit of his labor, is a terrible place for many. Unfortunately, most didn't know the actions that caused the fruit until now. And that's a shame. Because I think most of those actions were pretty blatant, but sometimes all we have is his fruit to see, and someone was sure labeling those rotten apples as sweet peaches.. And rascal, While you don`t see Jesus exhorting folks to forgive and love the pharisees that hurt people in God`s name. He did. He said to love those persecute you. Love your enemies and hate them not. Sure he called them what they were. Vile, whited sepulcres. But he still said to love, because he knew God still loves them. Doesn't like their actions or fruit, but love isn't about being nice and cozy and even going along with evil. God's love which is mixed up as worldly love today is just the opposite. It is seeing the needs of others and giving to meet that need. What does the homeless need? What do you or a friend need? And what does the evil men need? We all have a need, and God's love is to meet that need. Not greed. Not lust. And sometimes the need is for them to be put in prison, hanged, whatever. God's the judge. We are here to be lights. to love and care for. Not to cater to evil, but to love it and help lead it to God who can ultimately help.

Even them, rascal, even them.. Forgiveness doesn't take away all the penalty or the all consequences of their actions and their evil ways. It's just letting it go, taking the burden off your shoulder, the vengeance and consequence you might dish out, and saying here God, vengeance is yours, you take care of this in your holy and perfect way. If that means God has mercy, in his longsuffering, or whether it's swift punishment, what good does it do us to hold onto the reins? Give it to God, and move on. Just because Adam sinned, and therefore the consequence of that sin passed upon all men, never meant the consequences disapeared. No, instead God had to send his Son to pay to release us from some of that consequence, and redeem us from our enslavement. (We became slaves to sin and the consequences of that). Forgiveness didn't relieve us. There was still a consequence. But the forgiveness was granted the day Adam repented. It wasn't forgiveness that Christ paid for, because that was available since day one. And the day we repent and receive God's forgiveness doesn't mean we get out of the consequence of our actions. Nor does it mean, your forgiveness of your enemies means they can now go clean and free with no consequence. It just means, you have released your judgement on them and given it to the perfect Judge to rule on. Doesn't mean we don't warn others, doesn't mean we necessarily forget either. We just give the reins and responsibility of their judgement to God. Doesn't mean we don't try and stop them either.. But we still are asked to forgive them and love them. And love as God loves, not as the world considers love,

I think it all has to do with the heart.. Actions proceed from the heart, yet we all make mistakes. That doesn't mean that is our intention or our heart. And I believe that is where Jesus was able to make the distinction. He knew their hearts. However, forgiving even those who persecute us, still is important even if their heart is so evil. But I don't see anything wrong with calling things as it is, those with a seared conscience and an evil heart. If God is our example, the one who ultimately we imitate, as Christ was the image, perfect imitation, of God, I think we have a great example. God's love still allows the adversary to live, still alives evil to exist, still allowed Cain, a murderer to survive. Sure, many were put to death also, but I think God's enduring love to allow them "another" chance can't be forgotten. Doesn't mean they should go free though.. A price they ought to pay, and sometimes, that's in the ground to what could be calledl hell..

Love is definitely agreed upon. I think the realy issue is, what do we consider sin to be?? Because sinning against someone or something is not necessarily a bad thing. Sinning against Buddha is not necessarily bad unless you hold Buddha in high regard. I mean, there are a number of different words used in the Christian bible, or even Hebrew texts, and each means something different.. From the Hebrew word 'chata'h' which is the ol missing the mark kind of understanding, which can be accidental or unintentional going against what one says, to the Hebrew word 'avon' usually 'iniquity' or those that purposefully try and bend and twist what one says to do what they want, to downright pesha which is rebellion and just doing what you want to do and ignoring what someone else says. Notice that the meaning has more to do with who said it and with what weight and authority we put on their words or rules or direction given. Then the question become not necessarily one of is it sin, but of what authority we place on what God says? Even if he doesn't say it is wrong. Are we trying to twist His words to say he didn't because we want to, then it's 'avon' against God. Do we care less whether he said it, then it's 'pesha' against God. Or maybe we just didn't know and never really looked at the matter and maybe in fact he did say not to be homosexual, then it would be 'chata'h' against God... Needless to say, God says he is willing to forgive any and all of that. Love and mercy are definitely available. And for those who hold to their belief that God never said it is wrong. You have many Christian brothers/sisters who believe he did. And lest you think that doesn't matter, you only have 1 Corinthians 8 to say otherwise, but then that's only if you even care what God has said, because if not, it's 'pesha' (sin) against God anyways. And so, all have sinned and fallen short. Yet we have an advocate and a redeemer to fix that, for those who do care.

One thing some never realized was it wasn't always the "favored" that got what they wanted, as much as it was those who complained and stood their ground. Whoever yelled the loudest about their paycheck at a root locale, got paid the highest. Whoever kept nagging about wanting to leave HQ and go on the field were put on the field.. (Trust me, no one wanted to stay at a root locale unless they had never been, and once there, realized they didn't want to be!). Then there were those who were unwilling to complain, and they just took whatever was given them.. And those were the favored.. Favored with all the best jobs like the honey wagon, favored with all the best jobs at the root locales.. Oh yeah, they were favored since they wouldn't put up a fight! I can't say I was favored. But they sure didn't like me doing work or something, and I hated that!! One day while working at HQ there was a need for a hole to be dug, something I didn't normally do, but sure, let me borrow tools from maintenance and I dug it. Seems some noticed me working, and they didn't think I ought to be doing it myself and got some other people to help. Then later someone from the President cabinet came and told me next time not to go doing this, and if I needed it done, either get someone else, or hire an outside company to do it, but I was more important to them than doing manual labor.. Only problem is I love work! I hate sitting in offices and going to boring meetings, and doing conferences. It was always a waste of my freakin time! Course then later I complained about it and asked to be moved on the field. Course they didn't like that. But hey, I like to complain. So I complained till they said ok, you're going! Trust me.. If you yelled loud enough, they gave you what you wanted to some extent. Maybe not give you the Trunk Coord's job, but they sure wasn't going to mess with ya.

Yeah, I went down those same thoughts too. And if I re - researched everything, it's only my opinion as many thing are not black and white, as there are plenty more "knowldgable" folks than I in the original languages and they disagree and miss the boat from time to time! More of MY research, more of MY knowledge makes nothing more than more of ME than needs BE! But then I thought, I could get a job too.. Er, well, have my own business.., my own life.... But I realized, how is that helping others?! Still would be ME and about ME! And then, I realized, Christianity really isn't about the ME knowledge, or the ME job, but about the others. About God's love and giving that to others. And that can be done anywhere in anything. So now my business reflects that, and my life and ministering(aka serving) reflects that. Course, that's just ME! :blink:

Before I left, Rosalie Rivenbark tried to talk me into staying after I explained to her some of their idiotic doctrines that weren't Biblically based, only to have her comment, "Well, we have at least 80% truth, isn't that worth staying for?!".. Needless to say, I left and am all the happier for it! A probable 80% truth isn't worth 100% of your life serving any human ran business when it ought to be 100% of life serving God not man!

I do remember ol' Vic saying that.. Gee, now that you say that, it makes the ol' TWI during Vic and LCM reigns more understandable!

Depends on what type of "electronic document" you are wanting to be "electronically" stamped. Is The Type being: Microsoft Office document (Word or Excel, version needing stamped) Adobe PDF A scanned TIF or JPG document Autocad or other Cad drawing document Any program that would "stamp" another document has to be able to read/write the document type, and most any program would not be able to read/write just any and all, so it depends on what you are needing stamped.

Sounds like some good sites. My favorite is always Google groups. (http://groups.google.com/) Instead of searching regular web pages, it searches forums and other groups like these. Has answered most any question I have had so far. As for spyware.. I prefer the deny by default method of security, rather than allow by default and "hope" the spyware/antivirus software picks it up. Most spyware is installed as a BHO (Browser Helper Object), thus disabling Active-X downloads and installs (under Tools -> Internet Options -> Security tab -> Custom Level in IE) usually will block 99% of any real spyware trying to install. That leaves only unpatched exploits which is a rare thing as long as you keep your computer pacthed and updated (Including Macs!).

I thoguht this place was where we could hang out and roast our hot dogs and marshmellows on the slowly dying embers of TWI? Not that I was going to eat mine, I just wanted to see how shrivelled the hot dog could get.

Sounds like things are really getting heated up.... So just out of curiosity, are we here to sow discord or peace? Last I knew, putting others down is NOT in the definition of love! "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, yet have not love, I am nothing. "

My opinion out of the other billions of opinions out there: Does it really make a difference? Either way, you die. And whenever you return to consciousness you are with Christ. So whether that was a split second between the heart attck coming on or a million years since the heart attack, either way, you're alive with Christ, right? That's the hope. When, where, how, every man has speculcated and formed an opinion on. Course, I do look at scriptures, and personally, I see it mostly as Jeff and TWI have said. On the day of Pentecost in Acts, Peter said what? Acts 2:39 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." Well, Is he dead?! Is he alive? I'm not going to argue with Peter. That's after the resurection, so is he still dead, or maybe just his body is dead?! This whole, body - soul - spirit idea thought from TWI if you ask me is just playing with words. Man is made and given life. Sure he has a body, and we call a living body a soul. And when a living soul is alive it has thoughts and emotions and sometimes those emotions and actions are called men's spirit, not to be confused with God's spirit which is GOD's given to man and still is called God's spirit even after given to Him in scripture. But Sheol and hades from scripture is a place just as real as heaven is a place. Sheol is any place below the earth (i.e. a pit, a grave) and heaven is a place above the earth (i.e. air, sky, space). Thus the scriptures say God is higher than the highest heaven and lower than the lowest sheol. And I think clearest of all is 1 Cor 15 "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. " Each is in it's own turn. Christ first, then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Has Christ came? I guess some could say his first coming, but that doesn't quite make sense if David is still dead and Christ's first coming came. But to each his own opinion. The story concerning Lazarus in Luke just doesn't line up with the rest of scripture if it's a real account rather than another story/parable Jesus taught, and outside of that story, there really isn't another verse that fits. I tell you today thou shalt be with me in Paradise? Umm, Jesus wasn't even going to be in Paradise that day if he was to be in the grave 3 days/night. But of course, yes, this verse could either way. The Greek allows both ways, and the word order is "...and he said unto him verily to you I am saying today with me shall you be in paradise." But word order does favor the fact he was saying it today, rather than the action since the adverb modifies the verb. That is verb-(the modifying adverb today) rather than (the modifying adverb today) - prepositional phrase - verb. But alas, sure, we die. We are with Christ. At least us Christians believe that so the semantics and when and how, I don't argue. The rest non-Christian, to their own hope if they feel they need one.

Does not your Heavenly Father consider you more than a slave? Do you consider you own kids your slaves? How much more shall your Father in Heaven love and care for you and treat you not as a slave but as His own son. 1 Cor 3:21 "Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's." While we may "serve" God, and follow Him, He has given us all things that we might glorify Him in all that we do since we are ultimately His. I do not believe God controls anyone, else we are nothing but robots made to amuse some creator. That is different than surrendering to God. God points us in the direction he would have us to go, but it is up to us to follow and in that, we surrender our own direction for His. "Why do you call me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say?" So the question is have we made Him our Lord, or just our Friend?

Sounds like really important questions. And ones that will take some time for you to honestly some to the conclusion yourself on. I know for me, what I believe today is certainly not what I believed yesterday. My beliefs and mind and thoughts and perceptions change almost on a daily basis. Course there are core beliefs that don't change much. Such as is there a God. But that's only me. I think one important thing though is you never want to believe something out of fear. If Christ returns and you haven't believed, don't allow that to hinder you from thinking either way. Those are the kid of thoughts that enslave us. Keep us from enjoying life. Even if what we believe is true, it's never a fun truth! If there is a God, and I believe there is, then he certainly wouldn't have allowed you to have life only to be scared or fearful of Him. And believing something because the majority and everyone else does, really never works. The 'majority' just depends on who you poll, and that's likely to change from day to day. And really deep down inside it's not you, it's them. You need to be you, unless you like to be enslaved to others and what they think. What good is their of life if you're not able to think for yourself and claim this and that because YOU believe it! Forget what they think, forget what I think, what do you want to believe? Hard questions, sure, especially for things such as 'is there a God', things that can't 100% be proven scientifically. Only, I do believe those who ask Him, he'll reveal himself to. As the scriptures say, he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. If you never know and try it out, you'll never know. The same with anything else, give it whirl try things out, and then make your own conclusions, and not out of fear or what everyone else says. And when it comes to our lives, I believe we are the ones who make it what it is. Sure, I believe God watches over us, as any parent does for their children, even helps us when we need it, but as any parent knows, you can't force a child to do something or do everything for them. And while some go on to be millionaires and others just barely eat a meal a day, it's due to choices we make. God, as our Father, isn't going to control you or I to make those choices, only provide help and direction when we need it. And that's where it's up to us to follow Him or not. And as any parent, but one with all knowledge, he knows what's best for us, and really is just waiting for us to come to Him and jump in His lap and spend time getting to know Him. He won't force you. He won't even make you believe that. But if you go to jump, I know he'll catch ya! And honestly, that's all He has desired since you were born.

Anyone know the whereabouts of Wayne and Stacy Nolan.. They had went into the 30th Corps, graduated, went to HQ, then left HQ, and trying to find out where they may be now.. Thanks, T & O

It really makes me wonder how I ever thought that even remotely sounded godly.. I mean, really, we witness to get people into a man made class? And then help them follow man! Yuck.. Vomit... Disgusting..

Ahh yes, the ol' give them the answer you want and then ask them routine.. You're coming over to help the Limb this weekend, right? Ummm.. Was that really a question or a suggestion that should be taken as an order?