TrustAndObey

I'll be honest enough to say that most anytime the "utterance' manifestations were done by me, I was more "moved by" or should I say "required by" TWI than I was "moved by the spirit".. Peer pressure most of the time, pure and simple.. Sure I wanted to do God's will, and I'm sure there were times when God's spirit was energized within me to speak a word of prophecy, but that was not the norm. And I definitely do not hold to TWI's understanding of them. I think it was another instance of men trying to make more out of God's Word and bending the flagpole too far the other way.. No doubt we see God's spirit has been manifested since the beginning of ages and the Old Covenant given to Abraham and Moses. So I have no doubt it can or at times is manifested today. However, 'I' don't think it is 'MY" spirit that "I' can do with as "I" choose and have it manifest itself anytime 'I' desire and I have yet to find scripture to say otherwise, but rather it is God's spirit that 'HE" has placed in us. As it is written, "That no man speaking by God's spirit can call Jesus accursed'. There is nowhere in scripture where it says there are 9, and 9 alone. It just happens to list 9 different ways the spirit has been manifested itself in Corinthians, does that mean that's the only way God's spirit manifests itself? I think it's man's wisdom to say so, and also places God and the spirit he places in is in a man made box. Sure it is a gift and a down payment of the fullness of the spirit that is to come, but why else would it be written, "Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you HIS holy spirit." It is still HIS given to us for a down payment for our benefit until the fullness comes! Just as the earth is still the Lord's but he has given it to us for our benefit. Oh well, maybe it should be another doctrinal section thread...

Just reminds me more and more of Samuel.. Growing up and being personally trained by Eli.. God can work in any situation, and usually must since the world is full of evil.. And most godly groups start out with a right motive, but sooner or later, their men, make mistakes, and the evil takes over. That's why we don't put our trust in men!

I remember those days of close scrutinization (if that is even a word).. And I remember, very embarrisingly, working with a couple to clean their house up or be m&a'd because they had one to many things in their garage and a spare bedroom.. I felt so bad going to their house and critiquing how it looked because the BC said it was a mess.. I really didn't think it was all that bad, but maybe I just wasn't "spiritual" enough to realize it! Just sad.. And thankful that our Father accepts us even when we've gone and lived with the pigs, only to return home and have Him clothe us with such fine things..

Sounds like good advice from everyone.. And sounds like TWI just trying to tell you what "they want you to do". Nothing about God is in this picture. Trust me. It's all men's thoughts elevated to the position of God's. And so what they think, to them, is what God thinks. They were probably 'believing' for you to do what you didn't do, and as such, the law of believing that TWI teaches requires you and God to bend over backwards to accomodate their believing demands.. Since even a sinner can believe things into fruition, a MOG must be able to believe even greater things to happen! So why didn't you do what he was believing for?! Shame on you! LOL

Redeem the time for the days are evil.. And sticking in TWI does not constitute redeeming any amount of time waiting for your opportunity which may or may not come so that you can what?! Fix TWI? Be the hero? Come on..Get real. Jesus Christ is the only hero. This world thrives on movies and the silent "persona" that say we can be "The ONE!", the Neo, the Christ that saves everyone from the evil. I mean, who doesn't want to be?! Trying to be the 'one" that saves TWI just won't happen. We've been called to the body of Christ. Not an organisation. Yes, we are all unique, but even Paul said he plants, Apollos waters but whose the one?! It ain't you! Get rid of that mindset, and start thinking about the larger picture. God's picture. You in the Body of Christ helping as fellow-labourers alongside the rest. If you can't do that in the Way, then redeem the time, and go somewhere where you can, because the harvest is truly plenteous.

I'm still waiting for one of these 'believers' to believe world peace into fruition.. Until then... I just find their peace resides in their freshly lined pocket books..

THanks for the info.. No cows milk for cats??!! Really?! Gee.. And all along I thought I was giving them a treat! Hehe.. I do feed them regular cat food, but like dogs, they always are looking for an extra snack.. Be it the leftover pork chop, fried chicken, or even spaghetti! It's really hard to resist feeding them that little extra, since they love it so much.. Especially rasol - aka chicken soup.

How about cats??!! Anyone got a list of what not to feed them? I've inherited 2 neighborhood cats that are so friendly they let you do just about anything to them and still come back for more purring the entire time.. Anyways, I feed them scraps pretty often, but I'd hate to poison them.

Oldman, I hate to disagree much.. But I have yet to see why you think God needs us. Sure, He may desire for us to love and serve Him, we may be called to be ambassadors and all that such, but that doesn't mean he NEEDS us.. The God who created the heavens the earth, actually needs us to something? And if we don't, what? The world will die? Everything God has planned will fail? I think not, and I have yet to see any verse that would even suggest such a thing. We have a responsibility to God because he is our Father, and Jesus is our Lord, unless we choose them not.. But for those who do, it is ourresponsibilty to serve them, we either are serving ourselves and sin unto death or God in Christ Jesus which leads to life.. So just out of curiosity, what is it God can't do that he "NEEDS" us for, rather than desire us? Course, that and the verse translated "fellow laborers of God" is a very questionable if not a totally terrible translation. "For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building." It's all HIS, He just desires us to join Him in His glory..

Just food for thought, and another man's opinion which may or may not be true, and certainly open to close scrutiny as any part of my thoughts and life are.. Please note, all this is from memory, so I may miss something... But one of the words for "fear" in the Hebrew is the word 'yirah.. As all Hebrew words are, they come from root words, which in the most simplist form, each letter has a root, as it used to be more of a pictographic language rather than the Aramaic type Hebrew script we see today.. Nonetheless, yira or yirah has at it's root the word 'ra' which means to see. "Resh" which is the letter R is a picture of a head being raised, thus sight or elevating something are at it's root definition.. The Yod is the picture of the hand, and implies work and action, and Hebrew doesn't have vowels (except for Aleph) so there is no letter 'I'.. And so some say the word originally meant the result from focusing on the work or action taking place. (The letter 'H'ey at the end of a word usually denotes what the name itself kind of implies 'HEY! Look!) Now, if someone pointed a gun at you, your focus on that could produce a pretty noticeable fear. Someone bringing flowers to you, might bring a different reaction. So some say the Hebrew word doesn't actually describe the "emotion" or "reaction" as much as it implies the action you are taking such as focusing on what is taking place, be that a negative or positive thing. Thus the "yira" of God being the beginning of wisdom.. And the admonition not to be "yira" of your enemies... Fear can be a good thing and bad I think.. God's call to fear not, is usually in response to those focusing on the negative, the work or action that is distracting them from really trusting Him. Instead His call is for us to focus on HIM and what He is doing and promises, which is the beginning of wisdom..

Honestly, I kind of doubt "building" an organisation is what is necessary. Building any secondary structure from the body of Christ is counter-productive. That's my opinion at least, and I'm sure it won't agree with a majority of Christians. Now, I'm not saying coming together is counter-productive, it's the structure that I refer to. And it's the structure that goes against God, because inevitably it all starts to have men and women focus on building "the structure", "the organisation", rather than about God.. It all will eventually become a matter of "YOUR" work, and not "God's" work for the sake of your building. I think we make things difficult when we do this and counter - productive. The Body of Christ should be without walls and boundaries, except those God in Christ has raised. When you "add" to God's structure and boundaries, when you try and build an orginsatiion He hasn't put together, you are going to start having walls, borders, lines of demarcation that say you are a part of this organism or not, you can or can't do such and such in "THIS" organism. Sure, we can all sit here and say that such and such is bibilcal, but maybe it is only "YOUR" perception of what God has said and not really what is true. I have even been a part of an Christian "organisation" where everyone had an equal say in everything. THe only thing was that it too, like so many, became self-serving, rather than self-giving. And in a way, it will always become that way, since it is something you "built"and therefore will always require you to serve it to keep it functioning, thus the self-serving organisation will always be counter-productive and in my opinion goes at cross-purposes with the Body of Christ, the Church, that our Lord whome we serve is building. Nah, the best I know and have seen, is just living life and being with people. If you know those in the Body nearby, get together, hang out, do stuff, live life together, help one another, server one another in love, and serve God together, reach out to others with God's love, and continue together.. That's the oneness that we are all called to. Not to a man made and built structure / organisation. It is important to come together. It is important to have others that you hang with that also serve the same God, but to try and build yourself a "club" out of it, I dunno, just everything I've seen always ends up being self-serving and that's by design, maybe not intended design, but there's no way to dismiss it. You can have a world-wide network of people that know one another, help one another, and still not be tied to a organisation.. In fact, it's alive in the world today in many forms, starting with your circle of friends.. Have you decided to incorporate or form a organisation out of your friendships? What's the purpose, it will always end up self-serving in the end. Instead let Christ rule in our hearts, and let us prefer one another and strive to serve one anothe in love. And those we know and care for should be a part of our lives in every way we are willing to open our hearts and lives to them, and the more we are open to one another, the more that oneness takes place.

Skyrider, I actually don't think I Timothy defines "WHAT" a leader actually is.. Only what would qualify one if they were to "DO" what a leader does.. Just because one has the "qualities & characteristics" as you put it, doesn't amount to anyone leading, it just means they have some of the required traits Paul mentioned! On the other hand, I agree with you Mark... A servant is the best example. Christ being the chiefest. Who died for God's children. He gave every last breath, every last ounce of strength to help save and give to those whom are called of God. That he might reconcile them back to God, not himself. Not that my opinion means much, but one who leads is one who is a beacon of light, one who when you see him, you see their fruit, you see their labor, you see their sweat, their giving, their denial of self all for the ability to serve our master. In that, he leads ahead of everyone else who isn't working quite as hard. His hand is to the plow, and as a runner in a race, is passing them by. He isn't trying to start his own race (i.e. organisation), but rather because of his doing, he is causing quite a stir, and you can't help but notice it because of the fruit, not their noise of self proclaimed ministrydom. If one were to lead, you can learn from his example, you can imitate those good qualities just as Paul said "be ya imitators of me as I am of Christ", and from there we have the choice to imitate our master and run in this race, and while that person who was leading before may have taken a quick rest, you may pass him by and be the one leading.. The leader is just the one doing the work the best.. That's all. And we all take breaks from time to time, but each one of us may be the leader, if we strive in the work we have been called to do. It's not a positional thing, it's an action and a service thing. And just as love "charity" [agape] seeks not his own, one who truly leads is leading because he is working to help others run the race and reach God, not through himself, but through Christ who is our leader. As Paul planted and Appolos watered, so the leaders plant and water and sow. But in the end, if it isn't God who gets the increase, if instead of it is some man made ministry they are caught up into following, then you can rest assured their labor was not truly for God's harvest but rather man's.. A leader is known by his example.. Is it worthy of imitating or not? None of them are we to follow, as the best we can be is an imitation, imitating our Lord and Savior, the one we all are to be following. Unless some think some have already "attained" which Paul himself ssaid he had not. Unless some here think that they are "like him", which is still future.. Until then.. We are here to help one another, take care of one another, and serve our Lord.

There's no doubt we will always have this problem.. And there certainly is no quick fix. I was raised with 3 other siblings by my single mom.. 4 of us.. And she never once got a handout. She worked and she worked hard. 2 jobs most of the time. Both in very low paying jobs like McDonalds! Hehe.. But with God's grace, we all made it by with the little income she made. I can't remember a single time we went without food or shelter. Maybe our clothes were a bit old, but at least we had some good food at times (the left over McDonalds that they were going to throw away! lol).. In all honesty, I think we would be doing good to go back to the way things were in the Old Testament. If a man/woman was unable to make a living for themselves, their family - parents, uncle, grandparents, all took care of one another. And if that didn't work they becamse another's servant for a set period. What's wrong with that? Too much humility I guess in this world that none are willing to have. But given the unwillingness to be meek and humble and get a low paying servant type job, and the terrible family structures this nation has developed, there's not much hope because it was never meant to be a problem the government was suppose to handle. It was a problem the FAMILY's would handle. But I know, in this day and time everyone is so seperated, so isolated, that the destroyer has an easy time.. Divide and conquer.. That's what they always say.. And it's the sign of the times.. (Not the end times though)..

You know what is really sad? People actually believe this.. I'm not saying you do EP, but I'd sure beware. That some man made ministry ran and overseen by fallible humans is what actually freed them.. And so to many, that must mean God is working in this fleshly endeavor so I can put my believing, faith, and trust in it.. What a load of man made ^%$@#&^# No wonder people let themselves be led so blindly. They replace what really helped, saved, and freed them with something that has just a small resemblance of godliness. And soon the blinders go on until the next thing you know, they are following man rather than God.. How hard is it to understand that God has chosen the base things and the foolishness of this world to lead men back to him?! And hard is it to understand that we don't follow those base and foolish things but only our Lord and Savior and His God. Praise God he was able to use such things to free you, but that really doesn't lend any credance to how godly the man made organization is, any more than all the other man made orginisations that help people to know their Lord and Savior every day while behind the scenes they put in bondage, molest the weak, murder the wise, and kill the innocent.

agape - love - The love of and for (our) (g)od - (that is to say our) renewed mind (be)in(g) manifested in (our) household - which in laymen terms means our way or the highway.

I think it also is sad that many people try and equate fruit with works... Yes, we are all humans and make mistakes. Our "works" and "actions" are not always indicative of our heart, nor do they necessarily show our fruit... But just as Galatians is clear to point out, the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.. and it's by that outcome that we ought to be aware. Do the actions of those in charge of CES produce love, joy, peace, patience, kindness....?? It's a honest question that needs to be honestly addressed. Anyone can act "loving", anyone can work at being "kind", but just acting that way or having the fruit of love and kindness are still 2 completely different things. And as our Lord said, You will know them by their fruit. Because it will show in everything they do. Not just one thing, not just a few places, but throughout their life just as "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he". Now, I'm not going to be the one here to judge the heart of JL or MG or JS. But I know for myself that I haven't seen much good fruit from the STFI Board. All I see is men trying to be the "leader" without leading. Men trying to draw men after themselves, their teachings, and their orginization rather than drawing men to follow Christ. Sure, they are loving, sincere, kind.. But all the times I have been around them it's all about their desire, their vision, their way.. No different than the Way, TWI.. How many times I myself remember when I was in TWI that I did the same. Go witness, and my mission was to draw men unto ourselves. Bring them into our "family" or "household"... When all along, God didn't say to go do that.. He said share the good news, heal the sick, bless those who persecute you, care for the homeless, feed the needy, clothe the naked.. Do they do that? Do they give out the good news? Give it away to those who aren't a part of "THEIR" organization without the impulse to try and draw them unto their own? Give it to those in need without an ulterior motive? No.. They draw men to themselves so they can spoon feed them in hopes they will eventually "follow" them.. It's the TWI way as well as many other religios groups way.. And I know it well because I myself did the same. With the same ulterior motive that I just ignored or subdued thinkiing I'm helping these folks.. No I'm not.. I'm really helping them so that possibly they will do what I really want, like maybe come to fellowship, take a class, buy a book.. Whatever... Been there, done that, repented, and have moved on.. No where in the scriptures did Paul ask men to follow him.. NOWHERE! And maybe some here might recall a verse or two about "Be ye followerers of me".. Well, guess you never read it in the Greek.. Imitators folks.. That's all.. There were no followers of Paul, there were imitators, because as Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ. Imitate Christ as He imitated his Father. So just as you saw Christ you saw His Father, and just as you saw Paul in those ways he imitated our Lord, you saw Christ. Are these guys folks you want to imitate? If so, take those things worthy of imitating and get busy following Christ. If not, still get busy following Christ. But to follow them, to follow their ministry, to follow their organization, that's downright STUPID! Idiotic. The ways of men, that's all it is. Stop trying to make yourself like the other religious groups have.. Saul was not God's choice. A human king for Israel was not God's choice. Nor is a man-made organization Christ's choice for His body..

Actually if you want to know what it all boils down to... The equipment they had was old and breaking. The people they have working there are not smart enough to know how to fix it when it does break. And with more and more "newbs" coming on staff to help, they really had no choice but to put some money into new equipment. And Williams and Colter and the rest of the A/V gang that have been there for some time are not "tech savy", just knowledgable about the equipment they do have to keep it running mid-grade. They didn't need to upgrade to send out live broadcasts, and I told them that before. Gave them the plan on how to do it, but they didn't want to because they diss the internet so much! So much that if you lived at HQ they frowned VERY HEAVILY on anyone browsing the internet for fun as it was only for "work purposes". And actually kept an eye on anyone using their internet connection (which they did finally break down and purchase - but even that took a lot of push)...

Estimated one.. I think you misjudge what others are doing.. Are they denying Lynn or any in S&F of being of the brethren? No.. But what they are doing is blowing the horn and letting the church know there is a problem, and it is because they have refused to listen to one, and to a small group that have confronted them over and over. They need to be called out for what they have done and be held accountable to the entire church.. That's all.. No one is casting them out of the fellowship of saints, or out of the church body which is US, everyone, all those who procalim Jesus as their LORD! However, their "leadership" abilities is definitely in question when they perform as they have shown to the past months and years.. It's a continuing thing my friend they they have shown themselves incapable of acting godly in such a position and as such should take a step back.

Smoke, If you're referring to the letter the board finally mailed to its partners.. The letter to me still sounded like it was hiding much. Kind of couched the "people getting hurt" with the change of presidency almost as if saying people got hurt because of the change of presidency.... They really didn't acknoledge the situation at all.. Because who is president or not is not "THE" situation.. That's a mere facade in my opinion, and they are playing it to a T.

Oakspear, As if it even matters, but thought I'd correct one of those numbers.. In 2000 when LCM was fired there was the 28th, 29th, AND 30th in-residence training. The 29th Corp was the first to go through the new wave of 2 back to back residence years but went parallel with the 28th and graduated the same year, the 30th was in their first year in-residence also at that time and graduated the following year - Jully/2001..

TOo funny!! lol...

I'll have to be honest. I actually liked most of the classes while I was in TWI.. For the first time that is.. Nothing like sitting through something new. But just as with movies, once I've seen it, I don't care for it no matter how good.. And TWI always wanted you to see it again. And again. And again.. And Again.. And what, again??!! And then not only that, but you were suppose to have learned something each time!! Are we idiots? Could we not grasp the few major points shared in the @#%^$@ hours that we spent the first time listening to them pointed out over and over, that we need somehow to go back and rehearse the same thing again and again.. HELLO! I'm not stupid!! I got it the first time.. Now lets move on!! Course I feel the same about most teachings in any church.. Boring. heard it or studied it. No, seriously.. I'd get much more out of a pastor at a church saying here's the point! 5 minutes maybe.. But a whole freaking hour about the same thing I already know. Being reminded is one thing, being led to sleep in a class or sermon is another! Not that I have itching ears always desiring something 'new'. But the gathering of the saints was never for the purpose of relieving certain "leadership" saints of their need to lecture others from their vast superior wisdom for hours. It was more for a place of helping one another with their needs which unless their was some dialogue, the "superior wisdom' of the leader wouldn't be enough to tell them what I need to hear! And I'm sure if anyone had their pick, hearing someone speak for hours on the same topic, or being involved in a conversation with people on the same topic, the later would be much more profitable! Oh well.. The classes weren't all that bad though the first time. However, after leaving and studying, it's always good to get a fresh view of what scripture "really" says! However, the top boredom award for the first time through a class would have to go to "Biblical Principles of Believer's Family"... I was single, and even if I wasn't, there was nothing new and mostly LCM opinion.

decatt, I don't have much time to answer a lot on this at this time. But something to think about.. As others have already pointed out. It all goes back to what you mean by "in control'. The dictionary defines it as: "to exercise authoritative control or power over; "control the budget"; "Command the military forces" And that is more or less the definition I use. But the way I use the term "in control" wouldn't necessarily equate to "controlling someone or something". One can be "in control" i.e. have power over another and in a position of power over another, without controlling them i.e. manipulating and moving them around as a board piece incapable of it making it's own movements. So if looked at in that light, God is in control in that he does have power over us. Unless one were to disgree with Romans 13 which states that there is no power but of God, and the powers that be are ordained of God. I'm well aware of how TWI and others try and slant that verse to only being about religious ministers, however I think it is much more overarching. God commanded the light out of darkness. He made the waters and the seas and all there is on this earth and the heavens above. So to say he doesn't have the power over us would be to diminish the power God has. However if one were to mean by God being "in control" that it means he is controlling or controls you (which I might add is not the NORMAL use for the phrase "to be in control" in the English language) then of course I'd agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem I see mostly is that when one starts saying things such as God not being in control, the first thing most of the English speaking population would think is that you are saying God is limited. He is not all powerful, or all knowing, or everywhere present. However the scriptures do say that there is no power but of God, it does say he knew us before the foundations, it does say that in him we live and move and have our being. To me, and please note I'm just saying in my humble opinion which is not Thus sayeth the Lord, but the phrase God is not control wreaks of Deism. A God that is no longer capable or actively handling the affairs of this world. It is doctrines like Deism that lead people to stop trusting God, and instead turn to trusting in our five senses and in ourselves or others, something the scriptures speak completely against. Why would I want to pray to God if per chance he is incapable of meeting my request? Why trust in God if he has not the power to help? Why rest in God for our eternal security when he might not have the werewithal to actually save us in the end because he might miss a step or underestimate his enemies or not be even be capable? I mean, since when did the word God not mean GOD! And I don't mean the English word. I mean the original Hebrew word which meant THE ONE WHO HAS GREAT POWER AND AUTHORITY OVER OTHERS! Go figure, the exact dictionary definition of the word 'control'. True, it may be all in how you define the terms. But I feel it is always best to define them the way it is used mostly in this day and time and at the same time doesn't have any negative connotation to the one who created this world, gave us life, and in the end shall deliver us from this mortal body.

Music?!! Is that what is missing from CES?! Hehe.. Weird how the emphasis of helping and serving others turned into how we can best "entertain" others. Either entertaining them with PP, or entertaining them with music, or entertaining them with your great liturgical or research skills. Gee, when will people wake up and realize entertaining one another as a ministry is not the emphasis Christ nor Paul nor Peter nor any of those of the early church died for..

Lol.. 1broken1... How true and sad that is! One day, maybe we will all realize that Jesus mentioned that loving God and your neighbor as yourself are the two laws that the rest hang on, including anything written in those short and few epistles that were many centuries later decided to be included in the NT canon of scripture.