TrustAndObey

It is possible that Samuel was a great a prophet as he was even though it was Eli that raised him? And is it possible that David, the man after God's own heart, could go behind his back and have a man killed just so he could steal his wife? Is it possible?! Did it happen?! I have no doubts God can and does work in many evil situation.. Samuel was God's man for the time, and despite being raised by Eli whose own sons were so evil, God intervened and kept Samuel safe. And David.. Well, he at least repented from his mistake.. We're human, and we all make mistakes. Some very big.. The question is not, did they make them.. The question is were they man enough to own up to the mistake and try and make things for the better? I'd say VIC never did such a thing.. Nor has Loy..

What a year's theme. "OUR" power for abundant living.. Yup.. Sounds like a group full of themselves to me.. Just wondering what abundant living their power has given them? Let's see, dwindling numbers... The real research team deserted them.. Lawsuits, lawsuits, and more lawsuits... Selling off property since their's not enough to care for them.. Hmmm.. Abounding.. Gee, I guess you guys picked the only thing... They are abounding in words in their terms and conditions.... Just more worthless words...

But like some have mentioned here, these rules, guidelines, and math formulas really, in all honesty, end up replacing the true heart that God desires.. I remember they mentioned these rules and saying verbatim, it's just like a math formula, do this and do that, and you get the same results.. So I guess God is just some jank in the box and I turn the crank and out pops my wish!! Gee... What a farce.. Where's the heart of love and care between a Father and a son.. Are we not his kids? Is he not our father, so why would we think our Father in heaven is just a cookie jar in heaven we can take from at will as long as we abide by these senseless rules... He's a living God, for Christ's sake.. And He's our living Father desires a real and living relationship with his kids. Willing to care for our needs, but not as some third party business that gives you dividends because you own stock in them, but because his love for us and our love to come to him and ask (pray).. They honor me with their lips and mental ascents (aka believing), but their hearts are far from me.. I have no doubt God is willing to do exceedingly abundant above all, I trust Him to care for my very life and livelihood. But I don't expect him to give me everything I desire just cause I follow some man made math formula and crossed my t's and dotted my i's correctly. The heart was left out, the relationship removed, and henceforth there was nothing really to trust in but some dead man man's formulas...

And of course then comes the condemnation of why you didn't "receive" what you "believed" for.. All the while having the big wigs look down on you as some worthless pile of human dust that couldn't figure out the basics to this math equation that was so simple, even a caveman could do it, err I mean a MOG could do it.. I mean, he had it all, must have been his believing!

I always hated witnessing except for maybe that first couple months where I had a beautiful gal to follow along with.. lol.. But seriously, I know I felt like a salesman, of which I had been in that profession selling door to door before. But I hate that kind of job, always feel like you are pressuring someone. I still remember once out WOW we had "witnessed" to someone, and they gave us their number. Only later we could never get ahold of them. So what does my coordinator do, have me hound this couple for weeks on end, leaving messages on their door, on his voicemail, at his work, anything to get ahold of them.. I hated that!! They must have thought I was crazy or something, and I felt like a fool trying to force our cult onto them... Good thing they never responded! lol... Now days, forget about "witnessing".. Or at least the old way we were talked into doing. I used to brush up on communication skills and always looking for an inroad to bring up the scriptures and fellowship.. How much more brainwashed can you get! Instead, if someone talks about God, great, I'll share what I know on the subject they bring up, but if not, who cares. There's more to life than quoting scripture and bringing people to your way of thinking or your "group". If I really care to help someone, I'll make my life available to them no strings attached, rather than trying to force them to make their life available to me. And I'll accept them for whatever and wherever they are at, rather than try and get them to follow me.

I have no doubt VP taught The WOG being the Will of God quite a bit, but what he didnt tell you was he was really teaching HIS version of the WOG which was the Will of MOG in disguise.

I can't say I really ever heard much of the anti-holocaust teachings during the 90's or early 21st century, but I remember the books they wanted us to read.. Never did read them.. All I remember was blindly agreeing with them about the Jews of today vs the Judeans of the Bible... Kind of felt stupid after leaving and realizing how stupid the argument is.. Course there's so much regarding the Jews and the Messianic community today that I have probably learned more about God from them than I did in TWI.. Although not trying to emphasize the learning aspect so much, since I basically worshipped the freakin scriptures while in TWI instead of the LIVING GOD.. So I try and deemphasize that now days.... Anyways,.... Anti-semitic.. Anti is a greek preposition right, meaning 'against' or 'in oppositino to' ?? So I think the term itself can be used in many varying degrees. Meaning VP was against the JEWS, not necesarily hatred for them, but against what they believed.. Therefore being anti-jewish... Especially teaching how they really aint even of Judean lineage! Against what they stood for and were trying to do (build the new Jewish nation).. I think Groucho could be right if in that context. But many take anti-semitic to mean hatred for.. And although I never new vp, I never knew craiger to be of such thought.. But what do I know.. I'm just a little ol' puppy.. Can't it be taken both ways? Just depends on the context? Every word interprets itself in the verse right where it is written or in context, right?! lol.. <duck>

Really? It was about little ol' me??? LOL

Not sure who you are referring to M.r squirrel, who used to run it? I know every year they have a vote of who will be on the board for the Credit Union and "run" it, course you have to be in TWI to be acknowledged and it's always seemed like just a show to appease the credit union laws.. I was required to open an account when I was on staff. Didn't think it was a great thing at all, cause they don't have check cards which my other bank gave for free and who likes carrying cash with you. They charged me for stupid things like money orders and traveler cheques which my other bank never charged me. BUT, Personally I still have an account there.. Not sure why anymore. But say 4 or 5 years ago after the big dot com bubble and dividends at banks were well below 2% a year, the Way Credit Union still managed to give out 4% + along with a yearly extra bonus (almost made it close to 6%!!) ... Yeah, it really paid to keep your money there at the time compared to a regular bank or other Credit Union.. But now.. No benefit at all.. And actually their dividends SUCK!! Course, maybe they changed things the last couple years and only give good dividends to TWIt memebers. Anyways, for me it's just a matter of diversity or maybe just pure laziness.. Money here, money there, I don' thave time to move it elsewhere.. Same thing with certain stocks... Just don't have time to move it somewhere else for now.. Oh well!

Good post RainbowsGirl.

Tipping.. Gee.. I never really think about it much.. Anything $10 or over gets a $5 tip (plus whatever rounds it to the nearest dollar) unless it would fall under the 15% line which isn't usual since I don't visit expensive restaurants, but if I do then I just round my bill to the nearest $5 increment after adding 10% (Since 15% is too hard on my brain) or maybe I'm just too cheap! So a $15 dinner get's just $5 and the same for a $20 or even a $30.. Yeah, I hate math, so that's the best I can do so I don't have to think about it.. And since my sis cuts my hair, I tip her what a regular haircut would be, $10... Only, she usually hates that and tries to give it back.. Oh welL!

I'll admit there are many groups that are kind, loving, and caring. But in most cases I have found it just as much a facade as it was in TWI . Granted many newbs in TWI, or those who just didn't know any better about TWI, were genuine, but there were tons of fakes. Take the Amish.. There nice and kind to those outside their walls, but you start to get inside their walls, you have to conform or else. It's their way or the higway, and they don't tolerate disagreeing with their councilmen. I think most groups have that loving attitude just to get you to come in.. And once they have you where they want you, they change. Hmm.. Gee, almost sounds like marriages today even.. lol.. Ok, not all.. But anyways.. another subject.. Derail, Sorry! I have a number of muslim friends as well. Very nice sociable loving folks. In fact, even in disagreements we get along well. But you talk to one of their wives and how they get along and how things in the muslim community work, and you get a completely different picture. Their openess to discuss and humbleness to change quickly fades. Even the Jews which I have known to be very open to discussion. They'll invite you to their synagogues and openly discuss, debate, and disagree lovingly. But become a Jew and part of their rank and file (not just a person that visits their synangogue weekly or partakes of some of their traditions) and you'll see another side that wides up you either oobeying the Rabbi or else. Maybe it's just me.. Really, I won't dismiss that fact. But groups tend to be groups for a reason, they hold to some form of belief system (written or verbal), and unless you comply you're just an outsider that either opposes them, or are wanted to make their numbers larger... Even the homeless shelter that I've volunterred at before. If you're just a newcomer once or twice, they don't mind, but if you become a consistent part of the help, they start requiring things of you and get an attitude if you don't comply... So I just have decided to love people as much as I can, and not actually consider myself a part of any certain group. I may be a part of a fellowship, but that's only as long as they'll put up with me! Hmm Yeah, I'm just not humble enough! That's what it is. I should change to what they want me to be, right?! Well, some, I admit I'm willing to change some things, but not everything, I'd much rather only change to what God wants me to be. Oh well, it is probably just me Oh Lord!!

Dmiller, I think you overlook the actual reasoning here. The reasoning is not "everything should be free".. Can you point out anyone saying that? That whatever one does should be free? No, what we are pointing out is that we either are working for God and helping His children, or we are working for ourselves and the world. It's a choice. Does the movie theatre make movies available to benefit God, or themselves? I'm sure we know that answer. But what about CES? Did that write that book to help others or to help themselves? If someone needed clothing and you had it to give, would you give it? If someone needed the word of God, and you had it to give, would you make it available? Why is it, that because the secular realm charges money, it's ok to make merchandise of God's things? Why is it ok to tell God's children, you aren't worthy of reading or owning this piece of reasearch unless you pay for it. Who made you God, and the work of your hand, your own? Is not the earth the Lord's and the fullness thereof? And yet we rob God everyday by coveting and hording to ourselves those things that God has only made us stewards of. Not owners, stewards. If you want to take time to write some book and charge money, fine. But if you at the same time think you are helping God's children by requiring money to know what you've written, you are fooling yourself but not God. It's the heart.. The heart to serve or be served. If we truly have a heart to serve and be as our Lord Jesus, then we will give all that we are for the benefit of others. Yet if you are looking to benefit yourself at the same time, then you have proven only one thing, you really don't trust God with your life. Your sufficiency is no longer God, but rather your works and your man made actions. You are telling God how you want to be paid, rather than allowing God to bless you. For surely you have your reward among men, but blessed by God are those who give and require nothing in return. Paul chose not receive what the church made available out of the goodness of their hearts. But that was out of the goodness of their hearts, God placed on the members to give. That's relying on God to bless. Which is directly in contrast to you blessing yourself by requiring the reward up front. And as I already said, you have your reward among men, but blessed by God are those who give and require nothing in return for they shall be rewarded by God righteously.

What they don't monitor would be if someone were to purchase their own cell phone or internet service. However, since now TWI supplies phones and internet service to even dorm rooms in Founder's Hall, why waste your money buying your own service?! No, instead they willingly use the supplied offerings only to have their connections monitored. They did it when I was in (I should know, I monitored them), and I doubt things have changed any different. It is "their' services offered for your personal use, but that only means you agree to how they oversee the 'service'.

Sounds a lot like what TWI taught to me.. Not saying that your comments separating spirit of man with spriit of God is, but this statement just sounds so TWITish.

What must I do to join?

Just a question to ask yourself, why did they write the book, 'One God & One Lord' ? What was their purpose? To make money? To help those who are searching for answers? Think about it.. If my heart was to help people. To help them find the answers, if that truly was my heart, why would I not make all the information I have available to give, given to those who ask?! Why? Why instead would I say, you know, I'm glad you're searching for answers now, pay money and here's the answers?! By their fruit ye shall know them. If I want to help someone, I will help them with every amount of my being that I am willing to give. But there in lies a key word "willing". If I was willing to give of my heart and life to help someone, then I will give my heart and life. If we are to love as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it, then why should we be willing to do less? And if we are not to do less, then how is that I should stand in the way of someone understanding something that I worked so hard so that I might help them, only to now withhold that key piece of information because a stupid piece of silver wasn't given to me. That's WORLDLY crap. God gave us life and everything in it because he loves us. And instead you want to say that those who covet, those who have a need to keep for themselves a little silver because of their work, are just as loving and have a heart to help and give and serve? Let's get real. Now, sure, a book costs money to print. So, if a person wants to help others and can't afford to give the book away, charge what it costs. Yet, there's the internet and it costs nothing to post information. But noooo, it cost me time and research, and it's MINE. No God's.. Oh no, that verse about the earth being God's and the fullness thereof isn't completely correct, cause I worked on that piece of art, it's MINE! My research. Miy life. My ways. Mine Mine Mine! No, my Lord said ask and it shall be given to you (for a fee?), knock and the door shall be open (for a price?), seek and ye shall find. Maybe sometimes our travels through life cost us, but God never authorized those who have made the trip to now put a stumbling block in front of his brother/sister so they can not pass until they pay a fine. Instead he said let him who wishes to be the greatest, let him be your servant. How have we communed with God and learned from Him, only to now have the opportunity to help those who are just beginning on this journey, and how more godly is it to help them with all that we have and are, rather than to hinder them by requiring something of them for your service, which ought to be freely given to God? Christ died that we might be free, why put ye a yoke on your brothers and sisters because you want them to pay for your work?

I like how you put that T-Bone (and WordWolf).. So many things God has given us to understand clearly, yet so many things are not.. And while I may know many things about my earthly dad and his life, there are many things I don't know, but the more time I spend with him and share with him and him with me, the more I do get to know. Had he even written a book about himself, I still would only know what he chose to have written, but it's the personal one on one time where I get to ask questions and know him personally beyond the book. So what if all I know to begin with is there is a God and he has a son Jesus Christ.. Maybe they somehow make up one "god" essence. Maybe they don't. Why should that stop me from getting to know them personally and walking out on what they do share. I'm fully confident that what I need to know, they will tell me, and what I need not know, why waste my time I could spend with them in my own mental agony?!

They may have internet in their rooms, but don't forget all that internet traffic first goes through TWIT's routers and firewall and ultimately only what Steve Longley's department allows is what they have access too. I'm certain they block some sites "for the good of the twits", which ones I haven't a clue. More than likely they use a proxy server for that purpose, any TWITS at HQ confirm you use a proxy to access the internet [special browser configuration?] And I have no doubt they watch what traffic goes in and out to see what their groupies are looking at on the internet, much like their phone guys are watching who their groupies are calling or receiving calls from, which has been confirmed, and they do take action accordingly..

Yeah, that's the best I can figure it.. The HS (God's spirit) was lost, as they changed God's direction (good and evil) for their own direction (good and evil), and therefore gave up God's spirit to direct and guide them for their own ways. The new covenant talks about the torah(instructions) of God being written on our hearts, and being placed in us (God's spirit - possibly?) and we have no need for one to teach us (maybe remind, but we have the H.S. to lead us?])). So the H.S. leads us so we can know God's good and evil and can be the image-bearers we have been created to be. Oh well, more thoughts. Not necessarily right.. but a thought...

T-Bone, I get the same idea.. Because even after the fall it talks about man being made in the image of God to Noah.. TWI always said the image of God refers to the "spriti" of God that Adam lost, so how was it continuing after Noah? I've read some on this subject and I could no doubt be wrong, but my hypothesis is the image we were created in was the same image Christ was and is. Scripture calls Jesus the Image of the Invisible God.. How was Christ the image of God? Ignoring the Trinitarian beliefs, if one saw Jesus they could say they saw the Father in what way? Not the physcial sense. Not the mental sense. Nor the spiritual sense. My view, which again always open for discussion and willing to be incorrect, is that Christ was the perfect image of God in that he always did His Father's will and therefore showed forth the image of God, who is love, mercy, kindness, authority over those things God gave. And now going back to Genesis, man made in God's image to have dominion over this earth (and repeated 3 times).. To me that means God made man to be his image on this earth, his representative, his ambassador maybe so to speak. To have authority on this earth and carry things out as his imagebearer.. God's heart from the beginning that we would be his representative on the earth, but just because we were made to be in his image, doesn't mean we are great imagebearers and probably mess this image up, but still we are created tp be His image.. And the spirit is just a facilitator in that it empowers us to carry out what we were made to be, God's image. Oh well, just a thought.. Maybe only to be in one brain cell and out the other..

Not trying to be conttentious here, but everything I've read always points to Marcion having been born into a 'new-covenant' believing family and his father being a prominent elder or deacon or bishop or whatever they called themselves. Who knows, sources are always wrong, and we're talking about a guy whose been gone and dead so long ago, no one will ever really know! As for what movement I'm refering to? None.. My point only being that the Torah, which means 'instructions' but translated 'laws', was just that, instructions given from a Father. Just as Proverbs says not to despise the Torah given by thy mother. The Jews took them and lauded them up as laws and made them larger than they were, and they became a stumbling block as Romans clearly shows. Was man made for Torah or Torah made for man? God didn't expect them to be perfect and do them, only to keep them. The word 'keep' in Hebrew meant to guard and protect, not an obedience sort of thing a heart thing. To "break" the Torah was a word that meant to trample them underfoot, not to just disobey, but totally disregard them and dishonor the one who gave the instructions. 1 Timothy 1:8 "But we know that torah is good, if one uses it lawfully...". The law was not evil, it was the Jews that made them the stumbling block they became, and people today continue to follow in their footsteps. The whole OT wasn't about obeying commandments, but about mercy and love just as Marcion believed, only he felt the OT was all about laws and the laws were evil to him, as do the Jews today, but God says differently even in the Tanakh.

Marcion eh.... Yeah I remember a bit about him and his hatred for law.. To bad he never understood torah the way it was meant to be understood rather than the stumbling block it became.

Yup, I remember how they treated the Panarello's after the Craig departure.. Brought them from their cozy place in Ohio to a small adjoining room location in Founder's Hall at HQ.. Talk about a dark location for them. They had nothing they were used to, no room to live, and not much access to the Ohio limb they were suppose to oversee from their tiny room. They didn't even have a private phone in their room to take calls from those in the Limb, and instead had to take those calls in the hallway with everyone else in Founder's Hall listening.. Yup.. No privacy. No room. Screwed up life being watched daily by TWI. So they secretly slipped away into the night after about 2 month of living at HQ.. I don't blame em..

Well, I can't say I never saw that coming.. I know when I left staff they were pretty T'd off at all those on staff wanting to leave. They had said that over 50% of the WC on staff back in mid 2000 requested field positions during their yearly interview (but only 25% would get to!).. Gee.. Wonder why! And now Gunnison.. I really don't see it staying open for business long though either. Without the WC, they really weren't able to keep it up maintenance wise. They barely were able to when they had 8 in-rez to help out, but now with zero and only the handful of staff left.. I can almost count the staff at Gunnison on 2 hands, and unless there are lots of visitors, it will become too expensive to keep running. However, I'm sure lots of WC will be willing to stay and work there as opposed to HQ.. No fox, and much more relaxing enviroment..