TrustAndObey

Yes, it is true they no longer make that book available. The Way gave them all away free back in the late 90's and possibly still 2000.. The had them available at the Limbs, at HQ, at every meeting till they were all taken.. I think I have 2 extras in case some one wants that I picked up just cause WOW something ftheir were giving for free?! lol..

Bolshevik, Depending on where my relationship was with our Father, it made a huge difference in my prayers. While usually prayer means to make a request, I view prayer as just a time to talk with my Father. Be it a request or just getting things off my heart and talking it over with Him. or sharing with Him what I'm thinking. But when I got into TWI , my relationship vanished, and the Bible took top honors, and vew few "talks" took place on a regular basis. Kind of sad really. Many people stopped talking with their real parents or family not in TWI, and I stopped talking with our Father in heaven. I saw like you, so many times people would pray at fellowship or a meeting and it would be a recap of the teaching, or an intro into the teaching. But rarely what was from their heart to share with God. And I know I slowly started doing that, not as much but still to some extent, and my prayer life was a sham.. I even recall being reproved because I would repeat certain things in my prayers. You think God cares?!! Give me a break. Now.. Forget it.. I don't typically pray in public meetings, if I do, it is rare and short but to God.. But in my own private life, I enjoy talking with him all throughout the day. He's our Father, He loves to hear from us no matter what the topic. I got over the fake stuff and in time, I'm sure you will no longer be afraid just to share with Him what's on your heart.

I'm with lindy on this.. The word spirit has always stood for that which is unseen except for it's effect and thus could define a wide range of things depending on where it is used. Dan, I don't view it like VP either, but just curious where you get your idea they are angels from God in the Tanakh? So would you say that Elisha getting a "double portion" was justing getting 2 angels instead of one?! And maybe Moses had 71 angels and 70 were taken from him and dispensed upon the 70 elders? Hmmm.. I just don't quite get that..

I always thought they admitted there was another way? Their way or the HIGHway.. I'm just glad I found that HIGHER way! All jokes aside.. Good post Roy!

TWI provides the transportation now.. Course all in-rez train at Gunnison last I knew and those in their last year, in the spring, they take the elder corps up the mountains for the 10 days of hiking/climbing/ and duo.. Probably not as big as the earlier LEAD sessions.. I actually was a little bored with mine, only cause my body always has energy to expend, and I'd be up late hacking on some wood to try and make some stools and furniture for our group, until everyone got upset at the noise I'd make while they were trying to rest! lol... The climbs didn't take much either for me, yet I still had a terrible time. The coordinators kept hounding me about what I learned. You climbed that so fast, so what did you learn on your way? Being a novice to climbing, I learned how to use this move or that move.. But we're here to learn spiritual things, so I was out of fellowhsip! Was I suppose to stop and ask God for revelation on the way up?! Give me a break. I still hate that, always being asked, what did you learn?! I mean, you and I took the same classes and in the same teachings, and nothing new had been taught for years! And unless they wanted to hear how I thought their doctrines were BS, I just repeated what everyone else said.. Duh.. I learned how to believe bigger.. Duh.. I'm an idiot.. I had no clue how to believe until I &*%^#... Anyways.. Yeah.. So much for my friggin LEAD time.. It was a boring time filled with nagging coordinators.. Course I did get to climb some rocks which I had never done before..

Wow... Interesting to know, can't say I even had the slightest bit of a clue.. And even after reading 2 biographies of Luther, I had never even heard of his hatred for the Jew, I must have just ignored it like so many other things.. Oh well.. Back to ignoring life too!

Somehow I must have just blocked that statement from entering my brain, cause I honestly don't ever recall that statement being made in a "serious" way.. Hmm, Maybe that was it, I always took their threats as jokes! lol...

I wonder when they started LEAD back up.. Cause I know in the late 90s and at least up until a couple years ago they were doing LEAD.. Only out of Colorado and no more hitchiking.. Kind of glad too.. Would have hated to hitchhike. In fact, I probably would have just quit if I had too. Heard way too many tales of woes for those who did..

Didn't they review the blue book last time? Or maybe that was a couple of them back.. Really seems to me they are grasping at straws on what to teach, and everyone going is just going because it's a requirement, because I don't they really get anything helpful out of them.. Oh yeah, they teach you how to "believe" better.. As if that will do any gppd. How to grit your teach and ignore the world around you while you just mentally ascent to your own belief.. Just what the world needs, more hot air!

Bolshevik, What is the purpose of the scriptures? To have head knowledge? I think not.. Maybe something to do in our freetime, but certainly not the goal.. 1 Timothy 1:5 "Now the goal of the commandments are love out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and unaltered trust [in God]" Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth..."

If they last 40 years with more than 500 people, I'd be shocked.. But I'm sure there will be "some" left.. Rosalie does nothing different than any "naturally minded" person would do when they realise the numbers are dropping, the money is leaving, and her reputation is on the line.. Be nice, loving, caring, give the Way what they want if they ask hard enough, as long as they acknowledge you as their head.. Now.. How is that any different than the adversary? Who's realizes his impending doom. He's all for making some men wealthy, giving them power, just as long as they once again acknowledge him as their head... Nope.. TWI.. Works of men... Don't see a difference.. They both still seek to rule their own domain.

Out There, I know what you mean.. The WC who practised what they taught was certainly the minority enjoying the minor things given to them while the majority enjoyed the majority of the "respect and honor" taking as much as they could grab and steal!

I don't feel that I need to "understand' the Bible, and certainly will never claim to understand it all.. Before I was in TWI I had a love for my Creator, our Heavenly Father, My God, I had a living a real relationship walking and talking with Him each day. When I joined TWI I changed that love and relationship into a love for natural "understandings" of a book containing some words of my Father.. And started running out of time to spend with Him each day.. When I left TWI, I realized what I gave up, and how much patience and love my Father had waiting for me to return. And today, I sit in His lap listening to Him, rather than a book of which the sole purpose was to bring us to back to Him.

What's there to discuss, it stunk then, it stinks now, it will stink in the future. Get out, and have fellowship with God and those who are willing... Leave the rest of religion in the dumpster!

I dare you to prove he isn't!!!!!

Well, as much as people can hope TWI will turn.. I really doubt any of the above will do much to help it.. The Greene's and Cl*ud*tte sold out a long time ago, and have little desire to change it much. And while Aaron may be a great guy and all, he is a company man, through and through. A Marine till the end, and while he doubtfully would hurt anyone himself, he will do as he's told. Chavoustie I never really got to know much, so can't say, but forget about Linder making anything better. That would take a complete miracle and turn around as he has some of the biggest influence on Rosie even today. Didn't know Brooks was on the cabinet or the 'bicycle guy' (Andy...) .. Interesting I guess.. But both are company men also.. Andy had a big clash with leadership when he was in Corps training, and B*lchalk got an earful from Rosie over it, even asked him to stop messing with the Corps he was training and give into them. LOL! No, Andy doesn't see the big picture either of how much is wrong with TWI. He still thinks they are moving in the right direction, with a couple small insignificant problems that won't matter much if he had the ability to change it..

Sounds like a lively discussion here.. Jesus Christ is not God?! Yeah.. well, guess he never read Hebrews where God our Father, says unto His son, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom..' Oh well, so much for words! Course, I think, and really, you know, it's just thoughts, so no emphasis on mine being better than anyone else's here.. But I think the word 'God' is what causes too many problems. How is it that the verse in Hebrews can also be said in the Old Testament to someone else? How can the word 'God' (Elohoim) refer to so many different things in the Bible, and still carry with it the same meaning people assume when they hear it. God.. Oh yeah, the one true God that has power and dominion over all, its capitlized like English you know! Oh well, I don't think that's even almost the Hebrew understanding of the word, God.. El.. Two root words, Great/Mighty/Strong - Ruler/Athority.. Could just about describe so many things! Yet our minds must run to the one thing! Must be that monotheism that took control that says there is only one God.. Well, not that there isn't (that I believe). But that's because I believe there is only one who has Great power and authority over ALL things, and as Romans 13 says, those whom have power and authority have so because HE gave it to them. So, sure, one that trumps them all, but many others that have great power and authority given them aka a God in the Hebrew sense of the word (it was originally written to Hebrews wasn't it?)! The true God who gave all power and authority to His son.. Gave power and authority to certain men throughout all history, so whats the problem with calling them theos or elohoim? And just as Jesus prayed that as He and the Father are one, that we should be one, so however they are one, and we are to be one with them, I really doubt the different views make much of a difference. Yeah, maybe we just haven't asked them personally what the answer was! Jesus did say I will be with you till the end, and that where two or more are gathered, there he will be. So I'm sure he desires a personal relationship with us, and I doubt it is any different than having a relationship with our Heavenly Father even though neither are right in front of our eyes! They are both with us, both will not leave nor forsake us, so we ought to be able to talk with them both. So how can one not have a relationship with them if you have the unitarian view? The trinitarian view, still views them as separate persons, so you still got two! (Just one essence. Umm however one defines that.. God essence?! lol teachnically if by the Hebrew word God, it fits both unitarian and trinitarian views).. Oh well, nothing worth splitting hairs so we can know the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ as well as our Lord. Eph 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings..."

I've never said an organization doesn't have the right to charge.. But having the freewill to do as we please, and doing it God's way are usually two different things. If a man has the ability to give of his time and resources to help another human being in need, should he charge money just because he CAN? This is where works and faith meet the road.. We say we serve the one true God, and all we have is His, but when it comes to having things in common, when it comes to sharing the things we've been given, oh no.. That's MINE! I studied for years and took lots of time to write this book, oh no, I want money for my effort! It's not an issue of being able to make a profit, or even to pay for your time and resources, it's really a matter of what's the heart behind it all. Is my heart behind teaching a seminar, taping a class, writing a book about me making money? Making a living? If it is, you've just taken God out of the picture and it's all bout YOU! Did Paul work for a living? You bet he did. And he was proud he was "chargeable to NO man" when he wrote the Corinthian household. But someone who gives of their time and resources, making a tape, write a book, for the purpose of helping others is not going to try and make a profit. He's there to help and give, not receive. Are we givers or takers? If we give with the ulterior motive that we require something in return, then we're trying to become our own sufficiency, rather than trusting God to take care of us and meet our need. it's the true believers that put their trust in Him, and give of themselves requiring nothing in return, and it's then that God is able to work exceedingly mighty in that situation to bless them back. Is it our work or His?! If it's His, we ought to rest in His ability to care for us, not our own man made business schemes that serve to take care of ourselves. Trust in God.. That's what is all boils down to. Paul did.. He worked when he had to, and when the believers would bless Him, he probably didn't need to as much.. All things in common too. Remember that in Acts? If you don't want to give, don't. No one is forcing you to. But don't tell me you're giving to the Body if you at the same time are requiring something in return. That's what we call a hypocryte.

Yup, doctrines are sure used as such divisive things.. Yet, if it's not one's belief over gods, it will be over one's political party, or belief that abortion is wrong, or your country shouldn't be doing this or that, or you have no right to walk on my grass next to your house.. Religions and doctrinal differences that cause division and wars and hate go so much further.. And rarely is it because of the religion itself , only the front, as much as it is people who haven't learned to love one another, and respect each other as equals.. Oh wait, no I am superior cause I I I I IIIIIIIIIIIII.... And yet I find many groups that are very open to discussion and disagreement. Heck, in Jesus' day you had the Saduccees and Pharisees, and although they had rifts between the two, they still functioned together and did many things that you wouldn't even dream of seeing a Roman Catholic bishop and a Baptist clergy doing together.. It's always those who are so insecure that they hold onto their doctrine like it's either they have it or they die.. Sure, I believe in Christ. I consider His God, my God. And I serve them the best I know. But I'm not pushed by fear to believe what I believe, and therefore I am not scared of changing anything I know. I don't accept just anything, and those things I do, is only by careful consideration. And I haven't a problem hanging out with any of any group be it Christian or not. I learn from them all. Maybe I won't learn about the God I believe to serve, but I may learn other things. From a Hindu, how to be peaceful, from a Muslim, how to have a passion. And sometimes its how not to do things! How not to be a suicide bomber! lol! But at the same time, I wouldn'throw out my belief and never speak of them. I have nothing to hide. Maybe some need to hide their ears else their world built around their belief will crumble but maybe it needed to! Anyone been in a Jewish synagogue (guys only) and discuss the scriptures? They disagree on so many things, yet they peacefully discuss their beliefs and differences. Probably they learned from the days they killed themselves off! lol.. Anyways.. I'm just wasting thread space.. Maybe even without a point.. Love.. Yeah, get back to living that in everything..

Does not Ecclesiastes speak of the spirit of man that goes upwards and spirit of the beast that goes down? As well as in the same book speaking of the spirit that returns to God when one dies? Since when is the spirit one has constitute the actual human being? The spirit is never called the life of man, and therefore doesn't necessarily constitute an alive being. I guess to me, I see it more as just what it is. The spirit God gave, going back to God.. Just as the spirit God gave to Moses, then took and divided it among the 70 elders. Or the spirit of God that is poured upon those who believe. I don't think like TWI in that it is YOUR spirit to do with and it is yours. The scriptures (read Romans 8) speaks many times of that spirit still being GOD'S! You may have it, he may have given it, may even be the down payment of the fullness of the spirit to come, but.. Well, I dunno.. Whatever it is! hehe.. And your thoughts?

Sure, if you like to assume.. Why would someone believe something if they didn't think it was true?! That kind of goes against the defintion of BELIEVE! DUH! Main definition is "to accept as true".. But to believe something as true and to believe it as 'Truth" are 2 different things. One says I believe what I am thinking concerning something is right and true, the other says I am right, this is truth, everyone else is wrong. Most people know the difference.. Everyone on here has not shown differently, only as usual, your assumptions are wrong. Provided proof? Where? A statement that has both words in it?! Gee.. Wow.. That must mean I am contrasting so many things.. In fact that sentence I was contrasting "meaning" with 'things" and "contrasting" with "that".. Sounds like another bail of straw for you!

Glad you finally realize there is no such thing as subjective truth. And since no one here has claimed their beliefs are truths, only beliefs, not sure why you keep repeating your point that everyone already knew before and still knows.. Still waiting on that contrasting proof too...

Pipes, No one is complaining concerning those who receive money. If people wish to give their money to a man-made organisation to help them do what they believe is best, then by all means great for them. But being willing to receive and requiring something and especially at an upgraded price is not Biblical. Nowhere. Give to them who have need, great! Of course! The tithe was not just for the prophets of old, but the fatherless, the poor, the stranger who had need. Great, we help those who have need. But now you want to say some guy came up with an idea, a ministry (usually just a cover for what he really means is a business) and now in order for you to be a part of it, if you want to enjoy the classes, be a part of their "important" meetings/seminar, you are required to pay (or now they call it a donation).. Yup, turning God's Word into a business, doesn't matter whether the heart of the man is right or wrong, what he is doing is unscriptural and has no backng by God, only the secular business realm. So who do we follow? Christ or man? All that we have and are is God's. So who he desires me to give it to, great! But for someone to try and represent God and now require that you give else no truth for deliverance for you?! Man's ways.. Nothing but men and their ideologies.

What if you're wrong?! It could go either way.. Some see it as fear, some see it as a statement worth considering.. If someone came to me and said something I did may be wrong and it could cause others problems, I wouldnt be pushed by fear to fix it. I would consider it someone being friendly enough to point out something that maybe I overlooked and should look at so I can help others not have problems. I think a lot of things in life could go either way, positive or negative. But it's always in our best interest to motivate out of love. As the Christian Bible states, 'The goodness of God leads men to repentance', not the fear of the unknown.. And that is how I view it.. God has made available eternal life to those who want it. He sent His son who paid the ultimate price. And now eternal life is available. God has promised to care for me the rest of my life now and in the future, and there have been many times he had too cause I couldn't. Why would I not want to live with Him for eternity?! But then again, I do believe it! Since you don't believe in a fallen man, do you believe man is perfect then?! No problems with any of them? Maybe they make mistakes but really everyone's heart's and motives are perfect? Or maybe imperfections make no difference?

There you go again.. Haven't a clue.. Taking my words out of context. And once again, not realizing that the main part of any defintion of contrast is to show differences between things. Truth and your position that there doesn't need to be someone who is wrong is a contrast. 2 differing things contrasted. However, people who do what they want and defining truth was never put in contrast ever.. And you have yet to prove it. Where?! Come on, show us, since you seem to think it was?! Where?! You either can't read a simple sentence or continue to like to try and read into things. Just as you tried to read into Bliss's statement and everyone else's.. No one was attacking those who don't believe in God. You're problem with thinking your "understanding" of their words is truth, is the reason you don't see that I never put a contrast between defining truth and the things people do.. My statement, 'Truth can not be found ..... by those that do what is right in their own eyes" shows no contrast.. But thanks for playing the definition game. Always trying to redefine things. What's your definition of truth again? Subjective beliefs. Explains everything!