TrustAndObey

I think your math is a little off.. 12 x 30 = $3600.. I wish!! You really need to take away one zero which makes it $360 paid back to us! And that gives The Way $4,140 a year. Which really isn't all that much.. But much more than $900 for housing and feeding. I'm sure they got the bills paid for the most part.

Very interesting poll here.. I just want to know who voted a 5 on the "Realized, or experienced quality of the product" ??? My gosh.. You must still be a Corpse then! I can't doubt I learned a few 'minor' things while in training, but nothing I wouldn't have learned without being in, and nothing so life changing that I should spend 4 or even 2 years in-rez to learn. And I certainly didn't learn anything with any biblical importance. I have a tape handy with me, that has everyone in my Corps' graudation sharing what they learned. And you know what, everything everyone shared is the same thing I heared from people taking the FOUNDATIONAL PFAL! I mean, how much can you learn about "believing God"?! What, you didn't learn that BEFORE you went in? And how to understand the Bible better? Umm yeah right.. We went over the classes again and again.. What, no one could study the classes on their own time? Oh, wait we had Greek and other study classes.. Let's just say, the person teaching Greek to the Corp knew less than any person having taken at least one year of Koine Greek at a real seminary, knew less about Grammar than anyone taking a half of year of grammar at a real college, and well the list goes on.. Yup.. Worthless... But the bright side to it all.. At least we had lots of unsupervised study time of which I wouldn't have had as much if I was out working a real job. Allowed me to see how much of a farse they really were! lol

Well, if he's really interested in helping. He'd be better off by getting rid of his "GOALS" which he plagiarized from the 5 "Corpse Principles" of TWI and coming up with something from his heart.. And then to have the nerve to say, "Any volunteer may be dismissed at any time and/or program may be cancelled at the sole discretion of those charged with oversight." just leaves another open door for a new MOGFODAT to rule the roost.. He may have a desire to help, but rebuilding a new TWI is not going to do that! TWI was built around volunteers that served their overseers, and from his page, it looks like he's continuing in the same vein. A real servant looks for ways to serve and give and leads only because his example is something others wish to emulate. Rather than looking to train their own recruits to believe their koolaid all the while forcing their views on their naive followers.

Brainwashing... They sure did a good job.. Hard for me to even recall what I thought before TWI... Almost like a movie I just got through watching.. Bourne Ultimatim. Near the very end, Bourne finally finds the place where all his training began. Finally recalling just a glimpse of the begnning. The traiining that took his life from who he was, David Webb, into a completely new identity. He only wanted to help America, he agreed to volunteer for the training. Only when it was all said and done, he became someone he never wanted to be, an assassin majored in killing whoever the government wanted. Sure, he agreed to train, but he though he was training to help. And then to be pressured into killing with them quoting his own words back at him, "You said you wanted to help America, you said you wanted to make America better....".. Yup.. We said we wanted to understand the scriptures, do God's will, or any number of Green card promises, all the while they pressured us to take one more step under submission. And before long, we became reborn! "Look at us. Look at what they make you give." were Bourne's final words as he jumped off the building... Great movie! You're missing a classic.. But, it has some great parallels in those last 10 minutes that really made me recall back then.. Back when the training really began in TWI!

AFAIK, We are all called to help one another, give, and serve.. And since the word "ministry" just means a way to serve. Heck, I think that's up to each individual how they want to give in the body. And as long as you look for ways to help and serve, then you're fulfilling what God has called you to do. I would certainly stay away from anyone that wants to TELL me how I ought to be serving, as if they have a better connection to God, some self made MOGFODAT. God gives us of HIS spirit, that's the gift, and via that spirit, God's spirit, he is capable of making it known to us what His will is HIMSELF! It's all part of that relationship, between us and God as well as us and Christ.

Gee, no one told me it was an extremely greasy helping of the Bible.. Wished they had nutritional facts I could have seen before I signed up.. I really didn't want all that cholesterol clogging my arteries and almost giving me a heart attack.. If only I knew..

Yup, remember this story told a number of times.. On one occasion they did give the person's name at a Corps meeting, but I never took the time to check it out and ask the person, and didn't really care since I'd heard these things all my life growing up around different groups that claimed to cast spirits out. And mostly growing up I learned to see how fake much of those accounts were seeing the first hand meetings, but on the other hand, seeing many true occurances, makes you realize there really is something out there that's evil. Enough that some in my family have been scared into submissino due to their workings.

Never talked with the Allen's after they left, course I wasn't really close to either anyways at HQ and hadn't a clue anything was going on. But I'm very thankful they had the balls to file the lawsuit.. Sure shed some light where it was needed, which was the reason I asked the question, cause I know too many Christians that just sit and take the abuse and if they leave no one knows the wiser what "really" happened because they feel they shouldn't take it to the courts and let the public know, and the organization/instituation doesn't allow the truth to be told. So thanks for everyone's input..

Just curious, as I was typing a message and quoting the scriptures in Corinthians about taking a brother to court, and maybe this has been discussed before, but what do you guys think? 1 Cor. 6:5-7 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law against another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? And while that's typically how I think myself, I like to look at the other side of things just for the sake of argument. And what comes to my mind is the Allen and other lawsuits against the Way.. Certainly if there was ever something, other than POP, that caused people to leave TWI, it was finding out about LCM and what he did, which the lawsuit made it so much more real and true then anyone just posting it on a website.. And while I know there are many on here that don't esteem the Christian scriptures for much, what about those who do? What say ye?

But the lawsuit against Blackburn shows it is still 'Pending'? Right? :unsure: I wonder if they just didn't have enough evidence to keep pursuing the one against Gallagher. If he's still pursuing Jeff, I kind of doubt he had a change of heart.. Very sad... "But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law against another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?"

Now on a more specific note, since I know were in the Doctrinal dungeon down here were tempers sometimes can flair, although I am not sure why, since all of us see in part through a dark glass, only some don't care to acknowledge that.. But Spectrum49, you did open yourself up by posting here for others to give there opinion. I presonally don't care for people to tell me what to do either, but I don't think that was brideofjc's point. The point that was mentioned I have to say I do agree with which brideofjc, year2027, and Sunesis mention is that The Way left out the most important thing when it comes to following our Lord and Savior. That is the fellowship we are to have with our Heavenly Father AND HIS son. Sure, fellowship with one another is important also. We need it all. The iron sharpening iron, the 3 fold cord that's not easily broken. No doubt about it. We are part of Christ's body for a purpose, we are called together to fellowship for a great and wonderful purpose. But that's not really where it all begins. Or at least as far as I see in the scriptures. The first and most important being fellowship with God himself. That time we spend with him in fellowship, our alone time with our Creator, call it prayer or another religious term, it's that time we sit in our father's lap and just commune with Him. And of course fellowship with His Son, our Lord, who said himself that he would be with us always, even unto the end of this age. Well, is he not with us now, if he is with us always? Was he not seen of Simon, and did he not commune with Paul? Are these not mentioned in the scriptures? So it must be available to commune with Him, if the scriptures say in 1 John 1:3 that our fellowship is with the Father AND His son.. that our joy may be full.. Research is great and all. But would you rather read a book about your earthly dad to learn about him or engage in a real living conversation about him face to face? Why would it be any different than with our Heavenly Father? Or with His Son? Or with one another. Shoot, a book is great and all, but if I can spend time with someone, I would much rather do that. And God certainly desires that as well. That's why He sent His Son to die for us, that we might be reconciled back. Not so we can sit and read about God, but so we can come back to Him and spend time with Him. The bible get's us to know the truth, that we have been redeemed, but then it's up to us to live like we are, instead of living in the distant land we were enslaved off to. Course as for the reasearch arm of the Way.. Hehe.. Yeah, like we all agree, there isn't any! And anytime the ministry had someone that could do any amount of real research, they were mostly forced to comply with the BOD/T and rarely was anything worth a morsel of truth let out without piling on the ministry rubbish. Whether you stay or not in the Way Spectrum, I agree with most and you, it's your decision. Because God can work no matter where we are on this earth, just as easily as we can spend time with Him no matter where we are at. It's between you and God, and I say all the best to you.

Seems almost like a heated argument in here.. Here's what I think.. Take it or leave it.. Everyone here is right! There.. Y'all happy now?!

Unfortunately, the "believing" for LCM was while I was in TWI. After I left, I realized how much bull the "law" of believing was and now I just havn't been able to form such a massive weapon of believing as I before did with LCM.. Guess I lost the believing power.. How can I get it back?

You were the one to introduce the definition, but now you think it's too simplistic?? Oh well... I'm guessing then you can't show us how they were NOT legalistic, meaning they didn't hold anyone to any literal religious code (as the definition you presented says) in order to be a part of TWI?

Exessive conformity is only one of a many other reasons given in the definition of what would make something legalism. Go back to the definition.. It's really simple! But yes, you're right, it's all in the eye of the beholder. But how about you show us how they were NOT legalistic, meaning they didn't hold anyone to any literal religious code (as the definition says) in order to be a part of TWI.

Not picking a fight.. But umm.. I think you need to look at that definition again.. Just because it uses the phrase "free choice" in an example of how to use "legalism" in a sentence, does not constitue the sentence itself as the actual definition. The definition part is a "strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code." Nothing about free choice or any choice added to it. It's still legalism whether one chooses to conform or not. And unless someone has blinders on, TWI is/was full of legalism. But then again.. So is most of Christianity.. Hmmm, then again, so is most of the world! lol.. We all decide how much legalism we are willing to conform to. But in the case of TWI, we thought that God required it and now we find out it was all manmade religious action.

Hoping my son grows up to have the same excitement for the things of God!!

Sorry, my bad.. No more lectures today..

I know I attributed way too much to "believing" when I was in TWI.. But that sure never stopped God from working despite me! Hey, but I remember when I was believing for LCM to be removed from teaching the Corps and then the whole Way.. Prayed and believed and it came to pass! Is that believing or another manifestation?? lol

Was that suppose to include the Greek letters?? Cause I know my web browser (IE6) is not showing them.. I'm guessing from the letters I can recognize it is just John 1:1 ?? en archE En (h)o logos kai (h)o logos En pros ton theon kai theos En (h)o logos. Course is this suppose to be another Trinitarian or Trunitarian or Unitarian debate?? At least we can all agree on the first clause! The word was in the beginning, right?? Then I guess "some" people disagree with the definition of Pros.. But seeing that greek prepositions are mostly detemined by their object's case, and "ton theon" being accusative (going from memory and could be wrong), and pros having the definition of 'near or in proximity" and with genitive objects adding action away from the proximity, dative not adding any more action than resting near the proximity, and accusative objects adding action toward the proximity.. And I think KJV can't be too far off with 'and the word was with God".. But then, I could be wrong! Wouldn't be the 1st, and I'm sure it has surpassed the millionth time since. And the last clause being probably the most hotly contested. Since we have Cowell's rule, and whether or not it applies. If you ask me, Colwell's rule, while mainly for deciding authenticity of writings rather than grammar itself, still has a great grammatical point as I think it is just a logical one at that and a rule of how pre-verbal anarthrous nouns especially for predicate nouns can be more than just adjectival in nature. But since the rule can't be used to determine the definitiveness of the noun, we are left up to speculation, and every person's whim or opinion.. So it can be as KJV says, "The word was God" and add the article silently in front of the anarthrous noun. Or we can leave it as be in the Greek, and translate it like you would normally translate a predicate nominative and thus The word, logos, no longer IS or WAS (En) God, but instead theos would be considered more an adjective and thus godly. But since only a few other verses did translaters translate theos as "godly" in other verses (as an adjective) and I think remembering looking at those, they could be translated differently, then whose to really say definitely whether The word is godly, or is God! Does it have the qualities and attributes (functions as an adjective) or is it because Colwell and even grammar itself says it doesn't HAVE to have a article to be translated the other way. So we just can just go around and around with this one. I think.. Opinions, opinions.. My opinion.. Well, I think it is talking about God's word. And says what it says, and means what it means. Logos being different than rhema, and thus not just God's spoken words but his intent and heart was all godly and in the beginning with Him since the start. And it was via His words that all things became in existince. Isn't that what Genesis says? So if you ask me, John 1 is like Genesis 1, and they both work together speaking of God and His word and will that created it all. But as I said before, That's my opinion and I am human and thus could be WRONG!!

Isn't it great that we all have different opinions! I think the world would be such a boring place if we all agreed.. Then what would we have to really talk about.. If all the presidential candidates all had the same beliefs.. What a boring election.. In fact, why even have them! I'll share my opinion as long as you promise not to take it for anything more than 1 out of a few billionth's opinion that even when taken in comparison with a poll of 100 still can't give you the answer of what is right/wrong/true/fact/ or fiction but just as Obama was suppose to lose Iowa and win New Hampshire in the pre-caucus polls, neither actually came true. That's not to say that none of my opinions could be true, just don't rest much weight on them, because that's trust, and why would you put trust in man(or women!)? But if you put trust in God and that what he had written in the scriptures is true then you will trust the saying that "He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." 1. The Nature of God and Jesus. Is Jesus God and is God Triune? My opiinion, Scripture can be taken either way. I and my Father are one. One entity, one in mind. No scripture 100% proves one or the other. But I tend to believe due to the lack of evidence that they are one entity (i.e. Trinity/Triunity), that I would much rather take it for the simplicty that it says, God our Father, and His Son, our Lord; rather than try and cram some man's theology into it. 2. The Nature of Man. Body, Soul and Spirit? I know I have a body.. Beyond that.. It could just be semantics.. What is a soul? What is a spirit? I have thoughts! If that's soul, then I am a soul. I am alive, is that spirit? Then I'm a spirit too. If we regard spirit as something you can't know by the 5 senses, well then, count me as not knowing and therefore can't answer! For who knows if the spirit of the beast goes downward and the spirit of man goes upward (Ecclesiastes)? I don't mean that to say that the spirit of God doesn't rest in us. Course I left the TWI thinking of being born with your own spirit that you can control for purposes such as SIT and prophecy at your own whim. And I regulate things of God's spirit, the spirit he places in men, just as he took of Moses and divided among the 70, to the workings of God to which are at His control and not mine. 3. Speaking in Tongues. Is it legit? (I know this one comes up a lot on here) Depends on whether you pur your trust in God and that He had what's written in Corinthians wrote. I don't believe it is as TWI taught. Just as I said previously that I don't believe that the spirit God places in men is yours to do with as you please, but rather God's spirit given to man as down payment for the fullness of that which is to come, the flesh putting on incorrcuption. 4. Baptism. Baptism in Spirit or in Water? Salvation dependent on one or the other? (My opinion of course) But if God is our Heavenly Father who loves us more than we as parents could love our own children, then ask yourself how much would you require of your children to be in favor with you? But those who come to God love Him, and that's all He's asked from the beginning, was that we return to Him, not to some doctrine or law or religios ritual or legalism. Nothing more than you would desire if you had kids that they just return to you! Spirit or Water.. Well, you can have fun and be baptized (immersed) in water every day if you take a bth/shower! And Spirit.. Well, see previous and previous previous opinions. 5. Believing = Receiving. Is what the Way taught right? Yeah sure.. We don't need God.. Just believe.. I've been believing to win the lottery, but someone has been out believing me every time! Darn those good at believing, why can't they give us unbelievers a chance! 6. The Nature of Ministry. What the heck is it? The word ministry means serve. Do you serve? Do you give? As a Christian we are to be imitators of God who gave. Gave His Son, gave us life, Every good and perfect gift comes from Him.. He gave.. What are doing? Do we give or do we take? If a "minister" isn't giving but rather hoarding and taking, well, they ain't ministering. If they have but others with them don't and have need, but they are unwilling to meet that when able, well, there ya go. 7. Prayer. What is prayer really? Many kinds of prayer . I personally hate the word. Too religious.. I just call it my time to converse. Going back to God as our Father who loves us greater than we could love our own. Ask any parent what is the single biggest thril they get from their kids. It's when they spend time with them one on one. Ask a parent what they miss most when their kids leave as adults and get married. It's the time they used to spend with them. What do you think is the biggest thing God desires most? Do we spend time with him, or is it just religious actions at a church building with everyone else. 8. V.P. Wierwille. A servant of God or a malicious seeker follower. I think Jesus said it best, You shall know them by their fruits.. His actions definitely spoke louder than words. 9. Ex-communication. When someone stops agreeing with you, do you shun them, or mark and avoid, like TWI? I meet with others in my home every week, some are Mormons on their 'mission', some are ex-TWI, some are involved in other churches of all different association. Yet we all meet and enjoy each other's company and fellowship. Not go to fellowship, but fellowship with each other. It's a hoot. We don't all agree, but we enjoy each other's company and together we help one another and meet one another's need. 10. Salvation. How? (My opinion as has been), God desires nothing more than that his sons return home and spend time with Him. Who shall turn none away. If you don't want to go, don't. He never forsakes any, it's only us who forsakes Him. 11. End result. Heaven or something else? Whatever my Father has in mind. I don't particularly care. (I believe the new earth with the new heavens will be, and it will be on earth) 12. Rapture. Every believer or some? All those who returned back to God. Why would he force those who don't want to go. Free will to the end.

You might be walking by the five sense if: ... you think you can go anywhere you want to without having to have a second person with you and not have any consequences. ... you think watching porn with your minister might not be a wise thing. ... having a married person hit on you doesn't seem right even though they act like they are the MOGFODAT. ... ignoring your own needs so you can help your local pastor clean their entire house every week doesn't leave you blessed. ... you don't want to try and get everyone you know to take the stupid bible class. .. you have more important things to do than study some blue book for the umpteenth time. .. you think there's nothing wrong with getting on the internet and looking at anti-cult material.

VP a real MOG??? Yeah.. sure.. Only if you also want to add Hitler to the list.. Since he also felt like he was doing God's work.. "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." ""My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." Hail Hitler.. Hail VP... What sickos...

Well, when I first joined the Way, I have to admit they did know more about the written scriptures than I did. So a high regard and even higher.. He knew more than me! So who was I to say, no you are wrong.. So of course, I go along with ewwhhh and awhhhhhssss, until finally I learned more than they knew and had enough sense to realize they were freakin morons who didn't care for anyone but themselves and couldn't figure the basics of Greek or even as simple as reading what is written where it is written with all their re-interpretations saying it says something that clearly it doesn't to those who can READ! and not only that, but enjoyed their moronic state because of their power over the rest of the lemmings.. well, that's when I left...

Personally I think it's an idiotic notion to ignore the 5 senses.. God gave them to you for a purpose.. The problem I see is when we rely on our 5-senses which in a sense is relying on ourselves rather than putting our trust and reliance in God. I have a broken arm.. Great.. What can I do to help it heal. Ignore it? Hell no.. It won't fix itself.. Yes we go to God and ask for His help. His healing. But to not see what the 5-senses say and take action is like saying I know what to do but I'm not going to do it. We don't tempt God by jumping off a cliff and expecting him to save us, neither are we to tempt God by ignoring the 5 senses and thinking it will take care of itself cause we love God and he'll do it for us.. God gave us a brain and 5 senses to use. But our trust is resting in God that he will ultimately take care of our needs. We don't have perfect knowledge of what's needed, neither do the doctors, and the honest ones will tell you they don't understand it all. Doctors know in part, and we know in part (probably less than the doctors though), but all 5 -senses.. And so we do what we know to do 5-senses, looking at them long and hard. But while we may go to the doctor and do whatever needs be, we never forget it is Him who cares for us, causes it to heal, allows us to breathe and live and have our being. So while we go about taking care of the things that need be to the best we know to do, we realize it isn't us or the doctor that heals the damn arm, it's God who designed the dang thing to work knows exactly what the perfect solution is and is working in the sitution to cause the best to happen toward us! It all comes down to trusting in Him, but not temping him and trying to force God to do what YOU want just cause you want a 60 second miracle and not taking the necessary 5 -senses steps. Well, just my thoughts.. Who knows, I can be wrong! lol... I thought it was a broken arm, and you said it was a leg.. Shows you how much my 5-senses works! lol