TrustAndObey

Don't miss the up and down exercise of the Sunday Service... Don't miss the ridiculous standing up at a phone hook up for the invisible ghost.. Don't miss the standing up because %^#$%& enters the room... Don't miss hearing boring monologues that have been repeated at least 100x Don't miss hearing boring monologues about the boring monologues Don't miss hearing boring monologues about the boring monologues about the boring monologues Don't miss hearing boring monologues about the boring monologues about the boring monologues about the boring monologues Don't miss being told to study "their" materials for the 1000x time.

Wow... Never thought I'd see the day. All this time I thought good ol' Linder would rot at HQ, which I figured would be a just reward.. Wonder if TWI still pays him under the table to keep the closet doors shut on ol' skeletons.

We have a winner... There aren't that many Corps left! And the few that are on the field would go kicking and screaming if forced to go back to HQ... They know! Oh, do they know...

I'm with Cman.. Who says man has fallen. Fallen where? If he fell into a pit, get him out! People sure try and paint God into some weird corners.. And it makes him look stupid too.. Bout as stupid as saying God wouldn't forgive your sins unless Christ died (or worse yet, he had himself killed cause he was unwilling to firgive. lol. Suicide due to being unforgiving.)... What moron does that? A smart God would just forgive them! Geez....

Yeah, you're right, they could force such a response.. It just seemed so silly they didn't.. Probably trying to brainwash people into hearing others think they want to go, into getting the rest to want to. While those who are on staff.. Well, there's very few I know there right now that just love it..

Can we all agree on that?! Probably not.. But this I know, after having this discussion as most of us have while in The Way, with a multitude of different folks from all walks of life and religions, that everyone has a different view point. Even those who think they are saying the same, are not. Case in point.. My parents both say they believe in the Trinity.. If you ask my dad who Christ is, He's God.. One of the three "persons" of the one entity called "God.. The traditional/orthodox (after many revisions and centuries later after the original) belief that is prevalent today. You ask my mom, well, Christ certainly isn't God, he's his son.. ?! Yeah.. Ok.. I try and tell her that's not the "accepted" definition of the trinity, but like all of us, we all have our own viewpoint. The Way's viewpoint typically is what most call Oneness, Trunity, or Sabellianism.. But even in those 3, there are so many different varied viewpoints. And If God cares whether or not "YOU" or anyone else thinks he has 2 feet or no feet or is made of the seven spirits or the three "persons", I think you really put God in a pretty small box. Just going through all the scriptures people brought up already can be seen clearly and logically from either viewpoint (once one accepts their ultimate maxim). While each persons maxims may be harder to logically understand, I'm sure there's logic to why we believe the maxims we do, proven enough to the each of us. Acts 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Trinitarian: There's different "persons" of God and while the Father is not Jesus but they both are 100% God. And Stephen was able to see the "persons" of God. Unitarian: Self explanatory Oneness: It was the glory of God that Jesus was standing next to.. John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. Trinitarian: Again, Jesus is not the Father, but since both Jesus and the Father are God, the same one God, Jesus' words makes since, if you knew him, you'd know the Father.. Not because Jesus and the Father are the same, but that they are the same God. Unitarian: Jesus was the "image" of God. A reflection of his Father, so if you'd known one, you'd know the other. Oneness: Jesus and the Father are the same! John 10:30 I and my Father are one Trinitarian: They along with the holy spirit are one God! Each 100% the one and same God, but individual "persons". Unitarian: They are one in unity as Paul and Barnabas are said to be one, and man and wife, one. Oneness: They are one God! Jesus and the Father are the same, different "persona's" of the same God. Luke 6:12 "One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God." Trinitarian: One part of the Trinity communicating to the other members of the Trinity. Same one God, but there is communication between the "persons" in the Godhead, just as there is communication between our body parts. Unitarian: No explanation needed Oneness: This is just Jesus showing as an example to pray often. Even though people weren't there, they were aware of his example. People talk to themselves all the time. Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." Trinitarian: When the "person" of Jesus came to earth he let go of his glory, when his flesh died (not the god part of him) his glory returned. Unitarian: Jesus was not Lord and Christ until God "made" him so. Oneness: While on this earth, Jesus was both 100% God and 100% man, but the man died, and God made his name while on earth to be revered just as much as his previous names of YHWH and such.. Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. Trinitarian: This speaks only of the human side of Jesus, not the God side. Jesus has 2 natures you know.. Unitarian: Jesus was God's servant, not God. Oneness: Same as Trinitarian. Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. Trinitarian: This speaks only of the human side of Jesus, not the God side. Jesus has 2 natures you know.. Unitarian: Jesus was able to do mighty works because God "gave" him this ability and was "with" him. Oneness: Same as Trinitarian. Romans 15:6 "so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Trinitarian: God is speaking of the "person" of the Father, who is known as Father by name not function to Christ. As known as Jesus's God by economy within the godhead not by position or separation. Unitarian: Jesus has a God and Father.. Oneness: Speaking of the human side of Jesus. 1 Corinthians 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Trinitarian: God is speaking of the "person" of the Father, who is known as Father by name not function to Christ. As known as Christ's head by economy within the godhead not by position or separation. Unitarian: Christ's head is God. Oneness: Speaking of the human side of Christ. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Trinitarian: Jesus had 2 natures. God and man. Unitarian: Even after the resurection, Jesus is still called a man between God and other men. Oneness: Same as Trinitarian. 2 Corinthians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying. Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. Colossians 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 1 Peter 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, See above While I'm sure some beliefs are more "logically" sound, none of us can define God completely. And really, it's the relationship between the individual and His creator ultimately.

Since we rarely have anything recent concerning the Way, I thought I'd just add a topic on the current Way Mag and specifically the 1 page promotion trying to get people to go on staff.. Seeing some mentioned how this site is not current.. I took a peek at my friends latest Way Mag to see if I saw anything "new".. Seems they (TWI) must be listening to us, because the whole mag was devoted to articles on leadership being kind, forgiving, forbearing, loving.. While they can't show by their actions, they have to leave it to a magazine. Really sad. And I'm not saying they haven't changed their "outward" appearance. Since leadership, we've been told, is kinder and gentler.. But in the end, the deep hearted truth is, they really aren't there to help anyone. So this 1 page promo.. To get people to go on staff, had about 5-10 quotes from people in TWI.. Now, if it were any other marketing team, those quotes would be from satisfied clients. You know, those that actually were on staff and saw the benefits. Drank the kool-aid and loved it.. But no. Not TWI.. I have only my friends that are on staff to know they are still miserable living there, thinking they can change things while at the root.. So I highly doubt TWI was able to get any good quotes from those who are on staff. They all want to leave after the first year! So instead, who do they get to sell going on Staff? Why, the people who visited HQ and said how lovely it was and might think about going.. Word to those who are thinking about it, DONT! After the first year, you'll understand why! Or, in fact, go, because after the first year, you'll probably wonder why you are in TWI to begin with! my rant is over..

But was it not YOU who began this discussion by inferring his medical and "biology" knowledge of cells was faulty?? Granted, I'm sure VPW and LCM both had spiritual applications in the fact that death was not from God, ergo, sickness not from God.. But... That has already been mentioned. And honestly, if I were to actually look over the AC sillybus, it is rather silly any of us traveled so many miles and spent so much $ and wasted our time on that crap. All to hear condemnation about how the debil is in everything. Debil spirits are here, they're their, they're everywhere!!! Oh my, run for your life! Sadly, I didn't get the "run for your life" message the first time I took it.

If you mean the Christian God who created the heavens and the earth.. I don't believe so. But you may have to explain what you mean.. Thomas called Jesus, "My lord and my god", and we're all aware how the word god or 'Theos' or 'Elohim' or 'El' (take your pick) can mean a man, judge, deity, angel, or 'other' as long as it is one with power and authority (if one were to define the Greek / Hebrew word). en archE En (h)o logos kai (h)o logos En pros ton theon kai theos En (h)o logos. Most everyone agrees on the first clause. The word was in the beginning, right?? But then "some" people disagree with the definition of Pros.. But seeing that greek prepositions are mostly detemined by their object's case, and "ton theon" being accusative (going from memory and could be wrong), and pros having the definition of 'near or in proximity" and with genitive objects adding action away from the proximity, dative not adding any more action than resting near the proximity, and accusative objects adding action toward the proximity.. And I think KJV can't be too far off with 'and the word was with God".. But then, I could be wrong! Wouldn't be the 1st, and I'm sure it has surpassed the millionth time since. And "together with but distinctly independent of" while it may be accepted, like Oakspear said, putting any type of exact detail to the precise meaning is just guessing. The last clause of John 1:1 is actually the most hotly contested in this sentence, not the "Pros". Since we have Cowell's rule, and whether or not it applies. If you ask me, Colwell's rule, while mainly for deciding authenticity of writings rather than grammar itself, still has a great grammatical point as I think it is just a logical one at that and a rule of how pre-verbal anarthrous nouns especially for predicate nouns can be more than just adjectival in nature. But since the rule can't be used to determine the definitiveness of the noun, we are left up to speculation, and every person's whim or opinion.. So it can be as KJV says, "The word was God" and add the article silently in front of the anarthrous noun. Or we can leave it as be in the Greek, and translate it like you would normally translate a predicate nominative and thus The word, logos, no longer IS or WAS (En) God, but instead theos would be considered more an adjective and thus godly. But since only a few other verses did translaters translate theos as "godly" in other verses (as an adjective) and I think remembering looking at those, they could be translated differently, then whose to really say definitely whether The word is godly, or is God! Does it have the qualities and attributes (functions as an adjective) or is it because Colwell and even grammar itself says it doesn't HAVE to have a article to be translated the other way. So we just can just go around and around with this one. I think.. Opinions, opinions.. My opinion.. Well, I think it is talking about God's word. And says what it says without changing meanings of the "word". Logos being different than rhema, and thus not just someone's spoken words but their intent and heart and this was all godly and in the beginning with God since the start. And it was via His words that all things became in existince. Isn't that what Genesis says? So if you ask me, John 1 is like Genesis 1, and they both work together speaking of God and His word and will that created it all. But as I said before, That's my opinion and I am human and thus could be WRONG!! God to me is the one who has the power and authority over the world. (Man, angel, judge, deity.... Guesses.)..

Isn't this what most people in the real world call SPAM... You sure won't get my vote sending me your junk mail, and I hope my spam filter will be able to pick it out if by some odd chance you have my email.. You will be adding an "OPT-OUT" button in that email, right?! This way he can claim a large amount of "supporters" and feel good about himself before going to sleep.. I reached the world with der verd. lol.. It's like these people on Facebook or MySpace that have hundreds upon hundreds of "FRIENDS".. Ummm, and how many of those "FRIENDS" actual phone numbers do you have and have contacted recently?

While I remember having to do those stupid schedules.. I guess I wasn't "sold" on their purpose or benefit, thus, mine never reflected anything but what I thought they wanted to see, and then went about life as usual. That went on for what, 5 years of stupid meaningless schedules. Right up to the point when I put my final plan into action for planning the adversary out of my life, leaving TWI! And they think I'm going to submit that in my schedule to them?! lol

While I could understand sickness being death in part (death to some of der cells), but wouldn't death in whole be called death and not sickness?! I agree with WG, it sets a basis for condemnation.. All back to seeing the debil in everything. Since the devil is the author of death. And well, if you're sick, then you must have allowed the debil in, cause God isn't the author of death.. Should have planned the debil out of your schedule. Or at least believe enough to thwart his attack. Pure sadness.. I guess I never really recognized all the condemnation their twisted logic brought to the people.. :(

So the cycle starts again.. He believes the best way to go is setup a non-profit corporation. I always wondered what it would have been like in the first century had the apostles or even Jesus decided the best way to go was to first setup a corporation, a business, or some organization to help them with "da werk of da minersty". Yes, instead of just serving people. Ministering to needs. Helping the poor and sick, tending to actual people. No, instead what we need to do is come up with policies and procedures. Make sure we have a tax shelter. Oh and God forbid we forget to elect members and set forth the different positions and responsibilities in da new group. Next we need the government oversight of our "business" that the 501c requires and jump through their reporting hoops on a regular basis. We can't discount the government regulation of the 501c which of course silences us from speaking or doing many things that could actually "help" people, so we need to work that into our official modus operandi. Looks like he's committed to doing Gawd's work to me alright... And just what the people need. Anutter division of the "Christian" pie.. I didn't like my previous circus. They had a bad rep and I didn't want to look silly. And how dare you want to stay with the circus that I personally setup, they were getting to silly! So who wants to join our NEW and IMPROVED circus we just setup?

Well, of course they deserve it.. I mean, they must have believed for it, or maybe forgot to believe NOT to get it.. At least, so they say... lol.. I just believed they were right. And I planned the adversary out of my life! Yes, it works.. It's called leaving TWI! ;)

I don't know how many had this book as their mandatory Corps reading. I know we were, at least for those in during the 90's.. But I just finished reading a recent article on the author, Arthur Koestler.. Sounds like him and VP would have been great budies! Drunken, ego ridden rapists, the both of em.. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/27/books/review/Caldwell-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Seems the world isn't far behind with the same thought.. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/22/fashion/22dog.html

Let's just say I've met them both recently, but wouldn't put much trust in either.. Dan G. had a larger ego than LCM of TWI IMHO. I never understood their choice to bring him on board the staff. I remember talking with him right after they made that decision, and he acted like he was Christ being asked to help save the ministry, and how he had all the answers to fix what he thought was wrong with the ministry. Yeah.. He wants to be the BMOC alright.. And Schoenheit.. That's just scary. He doesn't consider any others opinion except to try and find why it can't fit with his theology and must be wrong. Even with clear proof. Even to the point of not finding evidence to his side but proof on the opposite side and saying, well, it could go either way. They want money.. That's all there is to say.. Especially when he says things like this! Most charities are glad to get whatever people can offer. STFI.. $1.. NO NO NO was his answer. 10% !! Come on.. If that's not pushing people to give, I don't know what is.

Here's John Schoenheit's answer on that: Give it up CES, STFI, John Schoenheit and co.. It's pretty clear you're out for those who "support" you "spiritually"..

Well, I did it.. I tortured myself.. I listened to the podcast.. I felt if I was going to actually diss it, I better know what they said.. So anyone else who thought of doing the same, don't torture yourself! And just a quick run down of was and wasn't said in the pod cast, and not just the intro.. First he(John Schoenheit) goes into why we give.. There you go guys.. Forget about giving because there's a need, or you have a desire, it's all about YOUR future !ENDQUOTE! As I stated before, there were tithes for the homeless/poor/fatherless, tithes for you, and tithes for the government. But instead of going over those, he stuck with saying it's not worth the time and that In other words, the mention of a tithe in the law was in regards for Levites and that other giving was just giving, not tithes. And in fact, he says, "The tithe ended because there was no longer a temple to take care of or a levitical system..". Emphasizing how the tithe was just for the levites.. No mention of tithes for others.. Just giving.. It sounded as if he had an agenda in how he worded that.And how about this quote: There you go. As you have purposed in your heart. I mean.. Abraham and Jacob purposed.. 10%.. No you can't just give $1. Yup, That's the STFI answer.. Ok.. Last quotes: While John Schoenheit mentions giving to the homeless, those in need. He listed 4.. The ministry was listed as first, family last..

What a bunch of BS if you ask me.. Some people are not able to GIVE, in fact they are in NEED. It's like most have said, let each give as he has purposed and is able.. And since they have purposed, they don't need some stuck up egomaniac to try and convince them to give more. This is what erks me about Christianity as a whole. Nothing but panhandlers asking for handouts every other Sunday. I have no problem to give and help those in need. And right now, STFI folks need to go get jobs, and I'm helping them by not supporting their panhandling! Not only are their "ministers" not anything close to the Levites and Priests who were forbidden to own land (although many try and associate themselves with the Priests). The tithe was not JUST for them. The tithe just means a tenth. And while Israel gave a tenth to the Levites. They also gave a tenth to the homeless/fatherless. And they gave a tithe to themselves to enjoy!! But you won't hear them talking about that, will you.. And eventually they gave a tenth/tithe to the government. Yes, those ugly taxes because Israel wanted a king but God said if you do, the king will require a tithe/tenth of everything from you. The tenth/tithes of the OT was just God's way of having each person take care of those who had needs around them. Not to take care of some pompous egotistical ar$e who thinks he knows better than anyone else and even is making their own translation to prove their ego. And what God didn't want was some government taking the tithes and having the "government" take care of those in need thus releaving the people of their duty! Instead the people sit by why those in need around them get missed, which was the purpose of the tithe you freakin STFI numbnuts.. Each person was responsible for taking care of the needs of their brothers and sisters, instead of waiting on some corrupt government assistance or corrupt ministry to sit on their egotistical ar$e. Deuteronomy 14:22-27 “Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to love the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat the tithe there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. Deuteronomy 14:28 – 29 “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tenth(tithe) of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.”

Lol... Sounds like it's unproductive evil to me...

but.. but.. you have to look at der heart as they can only go as far as theysa been taught..

While I rarely look these days at updates to TWI, a new update to the wikipedia entry says that Mittler and McFadden were both booted from being VPs recently, leaving Rupp as the only one.. Now I know Mittler always had a strong opinion around HQ, even spouting off in public against der forehead, Rovenbark and Donna. But what's with McFadden not only being booted from Vice Prez, but then taken off of Camp duty and sent off to New Mexico with little to oversee. (Although I realize he's still a "Director", as if he is directing anything?!)

I thought about that long and hard when I first got out.. Couldn't believe how "conned" I was to put so much into da werd.. As if it was some magical potion or a secret conjuring spell that once spoken ,err believed, would produce some "wonderful" results. And the more perfect the pronunciation and enunciation of the said spell, errr I mean perfect knowing and memorizing this accurate dividing of scripture, would produce so much better results! GAWWDDLLY RESULTS! POOF!! Darn, I was just turned into a lamb! Glad to finally realize how much BS and waste of time and energy this is. And how ungodly it is at the same time.. God never said His word(s) were the most important to be magnified above all. Out of context! No one is called to be a workman of the word. That was a TWI lie taking words from 2 Timothy our of context. The "meat" referred to in Hebrews 5 isn't referring to some advanced "secret" knowledge people need. It's nothing more than glorifying the creation rather than the creator. His words above Him. Idolatry per se.. And the movement of thus said previous creation (God's word) is nothing more than a glorified ego/pride pushing our viewpoint with a "GAWDLY" excuse. If God's word is so complicated he needs these workmen and others to share the ego of these workmen, God probably didn't do a good job in speaking His words clearly the first time. What makes us think we are better communicators?!

I'm just curious why you even ask such a question... Why would you even care? If you're wanting to help people, then help them. It shouldn't matter what people label you as. If you're worried about your PR, then you're already thinking like a business rather than solely focusing on helping others. And in which case, you might as well throw helping others out the window cause the business is what will eventually take over and become the primary focus! My 1 1/2 cents.. Help people, where you can, when you can, with what you have, and leave the business, PR, and organizations for people who don't give a rat's behind about others.. While many start with good intentions, I have yet to find any that haven't left those once the organization became important. And I do include most churches, ministries, and 401ks in that group..