TrustAndObey

lol.. Yeah, my first Adv. Class I met LCM for the first time. He came into the room we were watching "his" class (@Rome City), and he started distracting everyone cracking jokes, talking to people loudly, making fun of himself on the video playing. Meanwhile everyone was laughing and cheering him on. Well, not everyone. I was sitting there thinking I paid all this freakin money and now this dufus is making it so I couldn't hear the freakin class I paid to watch! There goes my money down the drain! Somehow I had a detached view of the directors.. Never saw them as anyone great when I was near them, in fact, I thought most were prideful and a bunch of 2 faced a$-$es.. Yet, somehow, after I was away from them in my little twiggie group, I thought their teachings were holier than thou.. To this day I'm never sure how that worked.

I think I took that in '95.. But couldn't tell you much of what was taught.. It was der new one, as I never got to see Mr W's.. I just remember getting lots and lots of sleep and wondering when it would be over! Course I do now recall, we had one night where we had a Way Prod "concert" if you want to call it that.. Let's just say 2 hours I wished I could close my eyes and people wouldn't had noticed - but they did and wondered why I wasn't "blessed" !

I must agree, the questions do seem quite valid. but I doubt most here aren't avoiding the questions, for I'm sure we have all wrestled with them at some time or another. Rather I think most are avoiding the person because they question his motives.. No one can doubt there is much evil in this world. Even the Hebrew/Christian scriptures claim as much. Not only do they attest of the many atrocities of man, it attest of some done in the name of religion itself. Also, I think it is important to realize how each look at death. For us who are alive and desire to live, it is something to hold onto. If our loved ones are dying or have died, we wonder why, and wish them alive. Yet, as Solomon himself said in Ecclesiastes that sometimes it is better one not be alive. Why put up with the evil this world offers. Why stay breathing only to have to put up with the pain every day of your life. I am reminded of my grandmother who called us all very selfish for praying and trying to keep her alive when she had a stroke. As she put it, she was ready to die. Wanted in fact, and was very willing for that to be her last breath. Yet our selfish family kept her living, and now she is healthy and living and doing most everything she was before the stroke. That is, except she continues to ensure that we all know that next time, she wants it to be over. Selfish.. Not wanting someone to die?.. Yes, another way to view death. One amongst many ways. And whose to say any one person's view is correct? Just as with the interpretation of scriptures. And atrocities.. What keeps us from blaming the people that actually commit these crimes, and instead try and pass off the blame as if it is the fault of another? God, the hospital, police, nature, the government... I've heard it all. Evil is what it is. And those who commit it are the guilty. If you think God caused it, then you either have a very unloving God or a distorted view of this God. Maybe some believe He should be stopping it all, IF of course He is capable. In fact why even allow evil on this earth, if God is in charge. Sure, valid questions. But none that haven't been answered from the hebrew/christian scriptures themselves in a variety of ways. Some hold to the fact God is incapable. Not in control. Merely a player of statistics that is possibly 98% correct. Others hold to the view that God allows such evil to continue yet protects any and all whom call on him thus providing a safe haven. Still others hold to the view that God has set the evil in motion for a purpose and a plan. Sure, pertinent questions.. And many possible answers.. Sounds like a great topic of discussion..

If you ask me, most talk about dispensations/administrations is sensationalism. Of course we are not under the laws of Israel. We don't live in the nation of Israel. Of course they were under the law. They lived in a freakin country that had laws! People think that just because we're Gentiles, and not under the laws in the OT, that it's something "new". No, if the Gentile believers lived in Israel, you better believe they had to abide by the freakin OT laws. Those were the laws of the nation. The nation God chose at the time, and gave them laws that set their nation apart. If you go to Israel now, you still must abide by their laws. Only sensationalism brings about this "We are not under the law" mantra. Course, our citizenship is in heaven, our laws are Heaven's/God's laws. But abiding by the law never saved anyone in the OT anymore than it does now. Our "believing"(Trusting) God unto righteousness is said to be the same as Abraham who was counted righteous for his "believing"(trusting). Nothing new folks. Sensationalism at its best. Israel was always able to believe(trust) unto righteousness just as Abraham did. It was always a matter of the heart. Christ was promised from the beginning of Adam's downfall, for all to believe(trust) in from the start. His death was required that he might be made Lord of all. Without that sacrifice, we are all (since Adam onwards) to get our "just" reward, which for sin is one thing, death. But with Christ, now is life made available. To those past, present, and future. If he had not, then death was still the last step. It had nothing to do with laws ever, those were a schoolmaster, something to learn from, not the deciding vote of being saved/unsaved. Salvation is from God, who is just. Has to be just even until the end. If one is raised, all must be able to be raised by the same virtue to be just. So therein God sent His Son, that all who would believe(trust) in Him, shall be raised justly, and all shall get their just reward. There is no OT and NT ways of being saved. Only one. The same way since the beginning of time. God's plan. One plan. That plan has gone through many generations, many nations, if you want to denote the generations and administrations, fine. But it's still the same plan. Always has, always will.. (Course, again, my thoughts, could be wrong... But it is what I believe!)

Actually I think the dwindling membership may play an important role in all that. The less mouths they have to feed, the better. They may actually desire to have none except their few servants at HQ that care for them night and day. Outside of that, I'm sure the rest are just extra baggage to them, and the sooner they leave the better.

When they demoted the big forehead to the head of research, I knew there was no one competent left to do any real research. I actually had submitted something only to have it ignored. Their rules for presenting new research is just a front for that circular filing cabinet we all use daily. When I was in-residence Corps training, we had a Greek class presented by Ed H0&n$y. For anyone that knew any real Greek, it was a laughable presentation. Of course it was geared to those who knew zero. Learning the alphabet, pronunciation, and simple grammar. You'd think the basic level of the class would be impossible to screw up.. Think again! It was so awful I went to my Corps Coordinator to ask them how I should handle "correcting" the teacher. Of course, in the typical Way of doing things, I was told to just ignore his glaring problems and only focus on correcting any handouts since he couldn't be expected to be 100% correct in a class concerning a subject he had no formal training in (outside of TWI). But the handouts were time proven and had been given to all the past Corps for many years. So, I was given the opportunity to take that evening's study time to correct any mistakes in their handouts. Anything else was not allowed, and I had to use my own study materials. So I worked through the Greek grammar handouts page by page, and wrote up corrections, giving a Biblical reference and page numbers in a Beginner, an Intermediate, and an Advanced Greek reference book. Three different books, that they could reference to see why I was correcting the mistake. (At that time I didn't have a good personal selection. I used Dana and Mantey's Greek Grammar for the intermediate, "A Grammar of the Greek New Testament In Light Of Historical Research" by A.T. Robertson as my Advanced, and i don't even remember the Beginner's book at this time. It was out of print, but the same book my dad had used when taking Greek at a real Seminary, and I had used myself). Needless to say, I submitted the paper to them and they were not happy I was correcting the "teacher". I know they read through it, since a week after the class the "teacher" diverged from the usual TWI mantra on a verse and instead quoted me word for word which contradicted TWIs normal take. So I thought they might actually care after all. No.. Didn't happen. A couple months later as my Corps was graduating, the "teacher" came up to me and told me how he hadn't had time to study it, that it wasn't all that important, but he had filed it away and someday might look at it. Then, he had the audacity to try and explain how I was probably wrong and was going off a different dialect of Greek, and that I should just be meek enough to listen to him. But that someday he might look at it and correct me on the specifics. Seeing that an hour or so later I would be graduating, I shut my mouth. Knowing full well all the references were to Koine and not another dialect. Yeah, they really care about new research, NOT. Honestly, I didn't care that much about Greek. But knowing they really cared zero about the truth, and more about protecting themselves, was another nail out of the coffin opening my eyes.

If that's not what he's saying.. It is at least how I see things.. But then, that's just me! I don't believe God is a respecter of persons and had a plan for "Israel" any different than us. It's only that for a time he chose Israel as his ambassador to bring the world unto himself until they fell away and would not be the witness, at least as a nation. There are many verses you can go to in the old covenant(testament) that refers to God desiring all nations to come to him, not just Israel. But the two becoming one (israel/Gentiles) was His desire. One body, not separate nations, under Christ, and ultimately under God. Genesis for me, in the garden, TO ME, holds God's heart for us since creation. It wasn't just a time frame of God just trying things out, but a time frame where God put all in motion of what he would like things to be, until we screwed it up (Adam) and thus started us down this long winding road, until one day, we shall be united in Christ, and then afterwards, be united under God on the new earth, with new heavens that shall be. Seated in the heavenlies is a NOW thing. We are there now. No, not physically, but that is our "nationality" so to speak. God's kingdom. Our place, our life, our being, when Christ died, brought us with him and made a place for us in God's kingdom, as His sons/daughters. But I don't believe heaven is our "dwelling place", at least not as the ultimate plan. Although we will meet Him in the air and will forever be with him, but I don't know about forever being in the "sky" or "air". At least, that's my take.. One of thousand different views, I'm sure..

I see only 2 myself.. Each happening just as the young-uns were grown up enough each time to finally see through the bs and some big change awakens their awareness. I don't think there has ever been a shortage of people heralding the truth. I know the first year I was involved I was given a big stack of "truth" about ol' Vic and TWI, and I brushed it off as sensational garbage! I left right before turning the big 3-0, and all the light coming down on LCM. I was ready a couple years before then having seen what was going on 1st hand, but the mass confusion and revealing and exodus made it all the more easier.. I figure if history is right, there will be another.. Bout the time the current tweens come of age around their early 30s.. What big revealing will happen then? Maybe Rosie and Donna's adventures together, maybe some of the current higher up's kids find out their father was really LCM or another who partook, maybe Rosie will croak! Who knows, only time will tell!

And what a great feeling it is to not be subjected to such religiosity that puts charity down. Even to be free to say "charity" instead of love... or umm, "love of/for gawd in da restrung mind in maddenation in der hertzville.". I always felt the word charity was a much better translation anyways..

Of course, ultimately the living word is secondary to God himself! And I think you about summed it up perfectly Steve.. Words as facilitators to communication can so easily break down somewhere. Irregardless of what writings are "inerrant" or "inspired", I've come to realize everyone has a unique perspective. Some are more closed minded in thinking their "perspective" is the only right one. And the more charismatic the person and interesting their perspective, the more who have not found their own voice are willing to listen to them. Which I guess is why so many search for "leaders" to teach them what it all means. Maybe such is the reason many of us were attracted to TWI or CES or SFTI or CFFS, etc... But I feel all perspectives are VALID to consider if they have a foundation/framework. It maybe not 100% what the original author meant, but still valid. I think it all boils down to how open are we that our perspectives can't be changed from time to time, or how prideful are we that we look down upon other's because it differs. I for one enjoy hearing one's rhetoric which in turn causes me to need to rethink my perspective because something I had not considered is brought up. At the mouth of two or three witnesses.. Yes, a multitude of counselors indeed. Hebrews 8/Jeremiah 31 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more...."

Agreed. I'd also think the spoken word to be secondary to the living word.

(Taken from Wikipedia) Practically, open theism makes the case for a personal God who is open to influence through the prayers, decisions, and actions of people. Although many specific outcomes of the future are unknowable, God's foreknowledge of the future includes that which is determined as time progresses often in light of free decisions that have been made and what has been sociologically determined. So God knows everything that has been determined as well as what has not yet been determined but remains open. As such, he is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to His plan or presuppositions. Boyd claims that "open theism" is an inappropriate term since the position posits more about the nature of time and reality than it does about God itself. This is to say that open theists do not believe that God doesn't know the future, but rather that the future doesn't exist to be known by anyone. For the open theist the future simply hasn't happened yet, not for anyone, and thus is unknowable in the common sense. Thus, to say that God doesn't know the future is akin to saying that he doesn't know about square circles. In this understanding, it could be technically wiser to refer to the view as "Open Futurism" CES/STFI promotes this view but TWI did not. It is a view used to explain why God changes his mind, makes mistakes, and bad things happen despite God being "all good" but not capably in control of everything.

Good question Ham, and good deductions there Wordwolf.. Recently I received an invite to the annual Way Credit Union meeting.. Course knowing how others have gone in the past while being considered mark/avoided (ostracized) and ended up being carted away by Linder 'n gang, that isn't in my thoughts. But what I did find quite odd and interesting was what was listed on the Voting ballot. Typically, you see about 3 or 4 Corps grads up for nomination on any number of different Way Credit Union board positions.. And of course accepting such a position, means you have to be able to make frequent trips to the board meetings held at de Way.. As far as I know, they usually include staff, or potential/upcoming staff members, and again I've only ever seen Corps grads. But this last list, actually included, a young gal from Bowling Green Univ (not far from HQ), who was not a Corps grad, and wasn't even a Fellowship/Twig coordinator.. Is it just me, or are they really drudging the bottom to get people to come to The Way International HQ?! I believe Wordwolf is definitely correct in that their talent pool is increasingly dwindling. And the old farts at HQ are the majority (40+). Granted there are a number of young folks.. Thirty somethings who are in the Corps and have no choice to be HQ. Or tweens who are just coming of age and haven't yet sprouted their wings fully. Although most the tweens I know at HQ and the new young staffers leave as quickly as they come. They realize a stench when they get there, unless they are raised in it, in which case once their term is up they get away, lucky them!

I guess I just don't get.. I'm not trying to be the "dissenter" who takes this discussion in a different direction, so I hope this post is actually helpful if only to aid others to clarify their thoughts on the subject. But to me, it seems like you can't avoid circular logic if one is going to attempt to arrive at calling anything "God's words".. Which then makes the attempt rather, well, subjective and biased.. Am I wrong? I have no doubt that the creator of the heavens and earth left His mark in everything. It's clearly evident even today with anyone who makes something. Whether it be the unique way your hand moves with every stroke or the logic each person utilizes and pushes into their creation. To some extent I believe it is unavoidable. The same reason you track who made bombs, viruses, and other man made creations back to the original. So in the same way, I believe God's handiwork has a sort of indelible mark. Course with that, one has to first start with the premise that there is someone/something that created such said things before one can begin to define his attributes that then could be used to actually pin point his "mark". So before I could even begin to acknowledge various "writings" (graphE - aka: scripture) as being "breathed" by God, well, we'd have to actually start from scratch. I'll accept the premise of there being a "creator" of the heavens and the earth since there is enough scientific prove to persuade me on this, but you'll have to persuade me how you jump from there to the Bible is His very words.. Maybe you guys didn't want to go there, and are looking for those who already "accept" your premise of the Hebrew writings (and the various canons thereof) or even further of the NT writings.. But if you ask me, I like to check everything, consider it all suspect until proven. Anti-american maybe, guilty until prove innocent, but why wouldn't I, I was already taken for a ride by those whom I approved innocent but were wildly guilty! Ok, there's my starting spiel... While I believe some things written in said Christian writings may actually have been said by our Creator.. I believe many things in there are also writings of those who were "inspired" by our Creator, and not HIS actual words or even possibly His complete and without variance thoughts on any such matter.. Just so you know, my POV! Personally I don't see 2 Timothy 3:16 as actually defining what "writings" he refers to when he says "All God inspired and profitable writing [is] for teaching, for reproving, for perfecting, for the training in what is right....." I actually see him referring to two things, those writings both inspired and those profitable..

I'm guessing I was too facetious in my last post.. I apologize for that if it was offensive since I do realize many do believe in tongues as TWI or Stiles or BJ leonard or the Pentecostals, etc, teach... But in all honesty I have to ask the question, what real benefit has anyone see the Tongues do for anyone today? Outside of possibly building up your human spirit just like telling yourself many other "positive" things..(or building up God's spirit that in TWI we called our spirit), is there really any tangible and external proof of a benefit from it? Let's just say for instance TWI is right, the spirit with groanings that cannot be uttered refers to SIT, honestly, does God even need you to SIT so he can hear about something you have no clue about so he can do something about which he already would know, because you certainly don't! That to me just doesn't quite make sense. So I am just asking, honestly, what is the purpose then?

No objections from me, your honor..

Hard to believe he still has "groupies"... When will they learn! Geisha wrote, Well, that does not bode well for you then . . . . or your "knowledge of the truth". Does it? I second that!

Well, I'm sure you can't lose YOUR spirit unless you're just sad, but then you can liven up your spirit some other way.. But seeing that the scriptures call the gift, 'GOD's' spirit and not yours.. Well... That's a whole new thing. Course there's a number of things I don't agree with TWI's take on "holy spirit". From trying to equate it to the "new man", which are 2 completely different things. Or equating it to the "seed" of the good news. Or the "inner man". Or many other synonymous things TWI piled into being God's spirit..

I have yet to see anything beneficial to anyone happen because of someone's babbling of an unknown language to everyone present... Of course I have no doubt that those who babble really think something "miraculous" is taking place.. It'd be nice if you did something helpful for a change.. Cut out that babbling and use the time to actually help someone with your actual physical body instead of trying to meditate on moving those invisible forces that just don't seem to be moving anyways.. I'm sure the invisible God can easily take of those invisible forces without your babbling about em, else you have a very underpowered God..

Great list! How about: Christian Family & Sex: Hey Baby, I'm spiritual enough, let's do it in all these positions! Biblical Principals of a Believer's Family: It's time for me to make the whole family follow orders barked from HQ or else. Rise and Expansion: Forget about Expansion, I am going to rise up and annoy the .... out of everyone. Dealing with the Adversary: Look at me, I can beat that der adversary! (Only don't look at my life, ain't nothing happening)

This is why I hate to even post in the doctrinal section. It's like my brain says don't do it, but my mind starts to lurk here anyways and then it just happens. I post, and always end up offending someone.. Don't mean to, really I don't... Anything I write is just my opinion, and I just get carried away with typing so fast.. Sorry if my expression results in this.. While I realize you don't believe there is "MUCH", I don't believe there is ANY.. That is a difference! This whole idea of spirit IN or spirit UPON to me is just symantics. And when scripture is searched, the spirit is said to fill the Old Testament and be "IN" the Old Testament believer just as the New.. I don't have time to search, but it's been brought up here before with the scriptures, so I'm sure it shouldn't be hard to find. Ok, I broke down and did a very quick check.. Numbers 27:18 and 1 Peter 4:14 is a ref to the opposite word being used in opposite sides of scripture.. But I'll let you look it up. This IN and UPON to me is just someones way of making a mountain out of a molehill, (that's about as kind as I can be on that...). And thus the reason I say they refer to the same, NO difference, not SOME. Unfortunately, I don't give "parts" to the gift. Nor do I view "Christ in us" as anything near what has been mentioned thus far. And as long as we agree on that, the rest is just academics and "unimportant" (TO ME)..

It's clear we both are not going to agree on this.. I do not agree with TWI. And from what I read, you agree with their ideas for the most part concerning how the spirit works. If that's not a true statement, feel free to correct me. I do NOT believe God gave man anything to make them little mini-gods that just have to "believe" and magical things happen. To me, that is wishful thinking at the least, and egotistical from there. This whole idea that the spirit given today is any different than that which is spoken of and given in the Old Testament makes no sense, especially when so many NT scriptures, even those in the epistles that link the two together. And Paul's listing of what one is given or another (in reference to manifestation of spirit], is never prefaced or said anywhere remotely that here is the definitive list of manifestations. That, to me, it is purely fanciful thinking to try and act like it is. Add on top of that, the wording doesn't even support TWI's logic of 'to one "profit"'. But I think the thread on 1 Cor 12 has been handling that. Just so you can understand my view [which is just that, my view], I do not confine myself to "scripture". To what Paul or Luke or Peter or anyone else wrote. God is so much larger than any book written by men, be they inspired or not. And that would include any "supposed" list "alluded" to by Paul. This idea that God's spirit is the greatest thing He has given us, his kids, with all these gizmos and gadgets, well.. All I have to say is, enjoy the light show! Because for me, the greatest thing God has given us is His Son. And I wouldn't say either Christ or God's spirit are toys that you control and play with according to your will.

I think you answered your own question there spec... the "REST OF IT".. Well, Guess that means there is MORE! First off, it is what Paul describes not what God describes. Second off, he never said there are ONLY 9. He just lists 9.. Yes, and that, my friend, is the box you decide to put God's spirit and the many ways it can be manifest. Enjoy your box!

I would be very concerned if you are trying to "dip into" spiritual power. I don't believe that is how our heavenly Father works. A long while back I remember looking into things of the "spirit", and more specifically the spirit God has sent and given to us until the time of redemption. God's spirit was sent to be a help, a comforter, a revealer, and many things. But what it was not sent for, is a magic wand to be waived about to bring forth our wishes. Our fanciful dreams would like it to be, and many tear scriptures apart to make it seem true. But there is no magic formula. No magic potion. No mystical spirit that was sent to do our every wish, even if it is for "what seems" good. To understand the spirit, is to understand Him whom gave this spirit. In fact, if you look through scripture, it is not called YOUR spirit, it is not called our spirit, it is called God's spirit. 1 Cor 3:16 "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that God's spirit dwells in you?" Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Eph 3:16 "For He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His(God's) Spirit in your inner being..." We do not control His spirit any more than you can control God himself. It is HIS! It will not do anything outside of HIS will. It will function only according to how HE desires it to. And yet, His spirit has the power to do accomplish more things than one could ever think up, and to put it in this box of 9 manifestations is limiting at best. Granted, God send it to us. He placed it in us to help us. But not so we become little gods with power. Instead, he sent it to help us when the need is there. And that need is not according to YOUR will. It is according to His. If you desire to see signs, miracles, or whatever. You approach it as God has asked us to. We ask Him. We seek Him. Our heavenly Father holds the keys. Not man. Not any ministry. Not any "belief". And not you or I. We TRUST God.. You can "believe" anything you want, but Trust is what God desires. We put our trust, our strength, our hope, our very lives in His hands, and say Father, Your will, not mine. And from there we ask and from there it is God who allows all things to happen. You do not force God's spirit to work, you ask the Father, and He energizes according to His will.

I guess I got this thread going in a different direction with all the "fallen mankind" posts.. Sorry bout that. I think we should move those to a new thread and discussion.. Maybe when I get a chance to reply to all those who already posted concerning that.. Meanwhile this trinitarian or oneness or unitarian or Arianist or modalist or any other view of the 'biblical" God.. Yeah, the only reason the debate goes on is because there isn't any 100% solid proof one way or the other.. Everyone has a reason, taken from scripture, and there ain't scripture that can say otherwise.. As for even "if man was fallen"... Trinitarians say it had to be God cause man couldn't redeem man. But then I don't believe scripture ever states one perfect man couldn't redeem em. Or that a man without the "sinners" blood and not God could still fix it.. Unitarians say it had to be a man because God can't die or if he did there might be some consequence.. But then, you forgot to take into account Christ having dual nature.. His God side never died.. And the debate rages on...