TrustAndObey

I'm hoping you didn't misunderstand me there James, with what I wrote concerning the Torah.. I am not seeking conversion. I certainly am not seeking to join anything.. I have studied in my past with a number of Messianic groups, possibly some you were a part of or even there at the same time(seeing we both lived in the same city), however I never felt a need to "join", only it was a great place to discuss and learn other's perpective. Which I did always find refreshing since most were very willing to openly discuss and didn't mind my weird questions. Just thought I'd say that since it looked like your post was in response to mine...

Yeah, that's a pretty good statement.. I think a problem that many people have, especially coming from a Christian standpoint, is they don't understand the Torah. Torah means teaching or instructions more than it means laws in our language. It's purpose is not to bind people to a requirement, but to teach and instruct. Being under the law doesn't mean you are required to do the law, that's a misunderstanding of being "under" something. It instead means that you are under it's covering. Just as being under a rock puts you under it's cover. The rock doesn't require you to do anything to it, it is just the relation you have to your current position or standing. We are not under the law. The law provides ZERO cover for us, instead it is Christ who is our cover, the one who has made us clean. That is, if we decide to make Christ so.. The other problem, especially for dispensationlists, is they think there is no benefit to knowing the Torah.. And I'm not talking about keeping the TORAH to the nTH degree, I mean, how much common sense, and understandable, and the purpose behind the 613 teachings of the TORAH, as instructions in righteousness. As guides to the blind, not as requirements that stifle. You don't get that without understanding the purpose. Just as the tithe. If you just think of it as, they were taught to give 10% to the Levites, it does you no good. But when you understand why, the purpose and heart, you realize there is a reason, and something that can be related to today. The heart of the tithe, was to take care of those in need. The fatherless, the poor, the Levites who had nothing. That was it's purpose, it's heart. It was not a religious thing. It was the heart to love your neightbor and care for others which is EVERYONE's responsibility and not the church leadership to decide. Which is why things get so screwed up cause people then give to churches thinking they're doing a required thing (as if a law) instead of from the heart and the true heart to give to those in need. And every teaching(Torah) is like this. Common sense when broken down and as Galatians says, loving your beighbor and loving God is keeping the torah, because they all stem from those 2. What I forgot to mention also was, the thinking in TWI was that in old times, people weren't saved, cause of the law. But that's not true. They were. The same way we are today. By believing. This why Abraham is the Father of those who believe. He believed unto righteousness. Heb 11, those who believed God.. The Torah was a teacher, and still is, that's all. Was never a way for salvation. Never a way for righteouness. Just teachings of God, his ways. Christ, or The Messiah, was taught from the start, by Moses and David, etc. They trusted(believed) God to send the Messiah, and that was accounted to them for righteousness. They didn't trust in the law to become righteous. What Romans talks about, those people under the law, isn't talking about Israelites or Jews only. It is talking about anyone who wants to try and work at their righteouness. Saying our works are our covering our salvation. Yet God has always promised salvation to those who trust in Him, grace. It's not just a today or this administration thing, Abraham believing unto righteousness should tell you that.. Ok, well, then again, those are my thoughts.. You know, my usual disclaimer, cause really, I know so little, and I'm learning like the rest. So feel free to share your thoughts, disagreements..

I don't think you quite understand James position.. He doesn't advocate throwing out the NT. Nor did the NT advocate ditching the laws. Only dispensational theology teaches that. But there are many other ways to view the NT. Well, actually even just saying NT is incorrect.. It's really the New Covenant poorly translated as the New Testament.. And James seems to have accepted the New Covenant which is what Christ offers. Ignoring laws brings about lawlessness which Christ did not come to do.. He came to fulfill. "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. This is true.. But having laws or being entangled, ensnared, trapped, and a servant to sin are not the same. Having no rules no regulations nothing to abide by AKA no laws is not what Christ came to proclaim.. He did not proclaim lawlessness, he prclaimed freedom from the effects of sin. And the whole entire law is summed up in love your neighbor and love God.. Yes, those are the law. And the effects of not abiding by such which we all are guilty of (I, daily) has been abated. But it doesn't mean I'm not to abide such things. Course some of the laws of the old covenant are no longer necessary. But that's for those who haven't accepted the new covenant.. All has to do with covenants. But you're right, this is a topic for Doctrine.. hehe..

In the later years when I was in, 2 x 2 was standard practice for anyone anywhere, not just WD.. Although it was a little more laxed after LCM left so leadership wasn't pushing 2 x 2 to go to the grocery store anymore, you were still looked at with "those eyes" if you wanted to take a long trip by yourself or go on vacation by yourself.. Imagine trying to explain to your parents how you can't drive 10 hours to see them without having someone ride along.. I don't think they wanted to look like a cult. But since you can't have the control they wanted without cultish type behavior, well, you have to make do with what you have.. Since they certainly were not about to give up control..

He got the right hand of fellowship from the leadership to go speak? What's that mean? So were they not permitted to speak without "leadership" giving them this right hand? Sure doesn't match the record I read in Acts.. "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off. The two of them, sent on their way by the Holy Spirit, went down to Seleucia and sailed from there to Cyprus." So you assume that "they placed their hands on them and sent them off" only refers to "leadership" and their magical "right" hand? How does one derive that these were the "leadership"? Is there a verse missing that says this? I don't know that you could compare what Paul or the first century did to anything the Way Corps or anyone in the Way does.. I mean, where do we read that Paul waited for people to donate money before he would teach them "da werd"? Where do they gather together in the Bible, but before they get into da werd, they hear advertisements for the new Way poster or music CDs for sale! Where do they make God's house a house of merchandise and sell things there because it was the right thing to do instead of being thrown out because it isn't of God? Ok, I'll limit to just those simple questions. Clearly The Way is in tune with what scriptures say at least on some basic premises of loving and helping people.. You know, sharing the Word out of love instead of requiring money before they can hear classes that supposedly help them?

Seeing I didn't want to lie, I just kept my mouth shut and tried to keep from being in a position of having to relate anything to the uppers, or them relate anything to me. At least it worked well when I went through with it.. Only I always ended up telling them something and realizing I was an idiot for telling on myself.. Of course they wouldn't agree with anything I thought or did.. Always had to be their way.. Fine, shut up, don't talk again.. Revelation.. There it is.. See... God was talking to you.. Same way he was telling everyone else about your mistakes... Well, it sounded good..

Hey!! That must be why I am not in debt.. You figured it out for me.. I must be unlovable.. sniff sniff.. Now I gotta figure out what a guy has to do to be loved 'round here.. sniff sniff.. I want to be in debt! I think in all honesty, 1 Cor 13 speaks of love as being an act of charity, not an act of repayment, but rather an unselfish desire to give because you can and the opportunity is right there in front of you to do so.. Christ died not because he owed us love, but to show us how we ought to love. At least, I'd like to think that's what it means and that was God's plan from the start, that all would imitate Him, love others, and all would be loved.. But I guess maybe I have to be in debt first... So which comes first the debt or the love? How long must I wait? Am I really that unlovable?! T&O

100% agreed... Only, it took a couple years after leaving to really see how much that apathy had taken over my thoughts.. And I have no doubt, there is still some lingering within.. It wasn't until I read a quote from Jimmy Carter's now old biography concerning his view of Christian Fundamentalism that really got me thinking about how rampant this apathy runs all in the name of "spiritual warfare" and the fight for "spiritual" correctness. TnO

I remember reading your story. And I'm glad to hear how there are always pockets of people who do take "loving your neighbor" to heart. Even in TWI there were pockets or "good" people who honestly loved. Mostly at the "twig/fellowship" level. I think whether you give to a bad cause or a good cause, if it's done with love, with the right heart, it's a noble thing. I mean, most organizations have corruption somewhere internally once they get large enough. Even the Red Cross and Salvation Army, the top 2 giving organizations have quite a bit of corruption.. Granted, their founding members were nothing like the TWI's! If you ask me, "Doing something good for someone out of love" is not just a noble thing, but if not "THE" purpose, than one of the purposes for being here.. All going back to Genesis, and why God made man. So if one "repays" love, is it "really" love? I'm sure this will get into how one defines love.. And I am talking about "agape/ahav/charity" love as in 1 Cor 13... And if one can repay love, does that mean you don't "owe" them love anymore? T&O

My guess is they are hoarding money because while they hold the top positions and no one can vote them out, they can enjoy the rich life making all their servants(aka WC) do everything for em.. So yeah, who cares about the # of people in da Way, as long as there are a few left to go fetch us water, and the money will ensure they have a lavish lifestyle until death.. It all makes sense now. And everyone in the "know" is trying to climb that latter, kiss the Queen's butt, or whatever it takes to try and have a piece of said lifestyle. Whereas the rest are clueless actually trying to bolster the number, not knowing that's not the agenda.. It's all about that lavish lifestyle now and into retirement.. Oh, and of course, keeping da werd safe. Gotta hoard that too.

Ohhhhh, Nowww it makes sense.. They really removed all the military wording in the scriptures because we weren't spiritual enough to handle the truth. We were babes, only able to understand "athletes". Where as the real spiritual guys in the know, were/are getting ready for real combat.. Gee, what a babe needing milk I was!

Unfortunately, that is exactly why many stay in TWI today. Because they feel they owe them a tremendous debt [not money]. For some, they feel they should at least stay "loyal" to them for this debt. Others, that they ought to serve and give their time. And maybe others money. Either way, this owing others because they have helped you, well, is it honestly healthy? No, that's not rhetorical, I mean it as a real honest to goodness open ended question.. Cause I don't know if it truly could be considered healthy. Anyone care to help me understand and expound why or why it wouldn't? I do know, the only reason I left, was because I did not feel I owed them a thing. Well, ok, I owed them enough as my employer to give them an advance notice that I was leaving (And they, for a few hours, took me up on that...). But that's just me. [Edited to add, there were a number of things I was helped with by those in TWI. Not by the top hyenas though]

But being the Forehead's accomplice, wouldn't that put her on the same plan as him, as far as needing to be weeded out of at least HQ. I mean, she is nothing but bad publicity. And all that talk now about being nicer, better, and cleaned up, yet they still have Mrs "I'll talk your young daughters into sleeping with da Forehead" prancing around HQ.. yeah.. And you thing things are better.. LOL.. Wonder what they have her doing now.. Still servicing the Prez?

I think that's a good summation.. The more I hear about what they taught concerning the tithe (honestly, it must have gone in one ear and out the other while I was in...), but it sounds more and more like the RC church after all.. Paying so God will spit in your direction. Did I really drink that?! I remember they always elevated Matthew 26:11a "The poor you will always have with you," as a reason to ignore 'em since they will always be around. They kindly ignored the context and latter part of the verse, "... but you will not always have me[Jesus].!" Yeah, I admit, I was quite the idiot!

I'm not 100% certain about that one part.. There's been talk, and it may just be talk, but it's highly plausible because of previous associations between 2 "consenting" adults.. One being the big forehead...

What I really don't get, is after all this was aired. Publicly. How can Ramona and her husband still be at HQ as if nothing happened. I mean.. I just don't get it. Either T$d either is in complete denial over his wife's admittance, or just doesn't care.. And as nice of a guy as he is, which he really is, I believe, I dunno, a really sad situation..

The Chalet.. Was considered one of the more "spiritual" locations, that not just anyone was allowed to go. One time while on staff I was working at HQ with an outside contractor to fix something at the Chalet.. Anyways, the contractor had left the lights on in the garage, and I didn't notice after locking everything up.. But about 10 hours later, at about 11pm that night, all within 5 minutes of each other I not only get a page over the emergency response pagers, a radio call from the switchboard, a personal knock on my door at Founder's Hall from someone in Safety, I also get a second phone call personally from Linder yelling and screaming about how dare I leave the lights on and that Donna M. was extremely upset that I could make such a mistake and that I better go out there right away and shut it off. For a freakin light, in a garage.. Yeah.. ok.. Oh, and of course I was required to send a "I'm sorry" note after turning the light off along with lots of other smoochins... How I'm glad to be out of that culture..

Wow.. Having to pay off your debt so you could get pregnant.. If that ain't control, I don't know what is..

While death can be an uncomfortable and inconvenient truth, it is necessary.. John 12:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." 1 Cor 15:35ff "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body." Death is seen daily. Our lives are a testament to that. Whether it be our cells that pass away, or our idealogies that must die so that we can grasp greater ones. Passing from one form to another, one season to another, all by the hands of this enemy, death. It is an enemy only because God has made all things with a purpose that is to be sustained, but since we screwed those purposes and perfection over, death has come until perfection, in which case, there will be no need to transform again!

Lol.. Yeah, you could say that if you don't mind being taken to the side, given a quick face melting, and then forced to either quietly accept that you were an idiot for wanting to sit back there, or maybe for once had a revelation that they really don't care what you want.. Sit in the back row.. ha, please! [Only the "priviledged" sit in the back row, you are not one of them. Peons must sit as far forward as possible with no empty seats in between. Move along now.. Moooo... ]

Thanks OldSkool for finding this... Somehow I'm unable to download the first file.. Something else I find interesting and ironic were her answers regarding what they did with Martindale.. Q: So the Way disapproves of Adultery [ Rosalie Rivenbark ] : Absolutely Q: Now, when did it come to your attention that Craig Martindale violated this teaching? [ Rivenbark ] : It came in - let's see - June of 1998 Q: Could you briefly describe how you became aware [ Rivenbark ] : We were having an Adv. Class at The Way International. A woman and man that were in the class got into an argument. She revealed to him that she had an affair with Martindale, and it just blew up from there. The next thing I [Rivenbark] knew, I was invited to a board of trustees meeting, and Craig Martindale told us that was indeed true, apologized, said he would never let it happen again and that it happened in the past and that's where it would stay Q: All right, so is this the first time it had come to your attention that Craig Martindale had been involved in an extramarital relationship? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes Q: Did the board do anything in response to this information? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes, first we were shocked, and then we began to consider how to handle it. And one of the things is that, because he was our chief teacher, he studied and did research a lot and worked considerably on his own and had a rather loose schedule. And another we noted was that he was a dynamic teacher and there were a lot of girls, women, that found him very exciting. And we thought we need to do something about this. So we pulled his plans and checked them out and discussed that we'd like for him to work on a schedule a little bit tighter, where we knew where he was and what was going on, and that when he traveled, that either his wife would go with him, or someone else, and that he wouldn't go out and teach on his own. Q: All right, And did it ever come to your attention anytime after June 1998 that Martindale had been involved in an additional adulterous relationship? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes, it did. Q: How did that come to your attention? [ Rivenbark ] : That was in March 1999, And I was at home in bed, and I got a call from the secretary treasurer saying that Paul Allen was at the Way International demanding to meet with the board of directors. SO I got up and went over there. Paul Allen said Martindale and his wife had an affair. And he was very irate, and demanded to have Martindale come over. So I went to the phone and called him and he came over. And he apologized, offered to do anything he could to make up for it, told him he knew it was wrong. Paul was very irate. and it just didn't go anywhere at all. Q: All right. Did you learn when this affair between Martindale and Allen had taken place? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes, I did. That was one thing I was concerned to know about. We found it was prior to the Adv. Class episode in 98. Q: All right, did you change anything after learning about this, in terms of Martindale's schedule and the like? [ Rivenbark ] : Well, we were monitoring rhings pretty closely. We had already changed his schedule and the travel and all. And since it was prior to that, we thought we had a good handle on things. Q: Now the Allen's eventually filed a lawsuit. Is that correct? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes, they did. Q: That was in March 2000? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes, that was. Q: And what was your reaction to the lawsuit when it arrived? [ Rivenbark ] : I think "shocked" is a good word. Q: Why is that? [ Rivenbark ] : Because when we met in March '99, the way the conversations went, it was a consensual affair. In the lawsuit it implied coercion, and there were a lot of exaggerated charges in there. Q: All right, so what did you do in response to the lawsuit? What did the board do? [ Rivenbark ] : In response to the lawsuit, we asked him to step down as the chief teacher of the ministry. Q: Why did you do that? [ Rivenbark ] : Because we felt that after all of this, and as upset as people were, that there was just no way he was keeping the standards, and he wouldn't be an effective teacher for the ministry. Q: Now, sometime within a few weeks, did the board decide it was necessary to take additional action with regard to Martindale? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes, we did. Q: And what did you do? [ Rivenbark ] : We asked him to resign. Q: Resign from the board? [ Rivenbark ] : Yes, and resign from the presidency. Q: Why did you ask him to resign? [ Rivenbark ] : Because it just was - it was a very hard decision. People had loved him for years, and believed in him. And he had fallen short, and people were angry. We were very concerned. He hadn't upheld the standards of the Bible. And we just thought he couldn't do his job anymore. So here's what I'm getting at if you read all that.. Rivenbark lies, saying she had no clue until 98, when it's proven she knew prior to this, at least in 1995. Secondly, their "spiritual" insight said to just watch him closely and monitor his schedule when they did find out. That was all the board of directors felt was necessary in knowing he had extramarital affairs. So when the Allen affair came into knowledge, and knowing it was started earlier than their "close monitoring", that there was no need to do anything, leave Martindale teaching. He can do his job teaching, no need to stop that just because of some sexcapades. It wasn't until the lawsuit hit that they decided, Oh dear, people know, I guess we should remove Martindale! How's that for spiritual insight? Before the lawsuit, or had none happened, we keep everything hush hush. But when a lawsuit, oh dear, let's make changes. Get rid of Martindale. And she says in the last line, "Because he hadn't upheld the standards of the Bible, he couldn't do his job".. Umm no, that's not why, liar. You already said when you found he didn't uphold those standards that the only thing you needed was to monitor him closely.. He was able to do his job. Be honest, you wanted him gone. You wanted his seat. He was bad PR, so get rid him, Nothing to do with Christian ethics, the Bible, or God. Everything you do is for the looks! The vain glory, the outward appearance. Be honest for once! Geez..

It just amazes me how anyone could even start to equate anything about Jesus or his disciples with anything The Way International had to offer. Nope, nadda, zilch. The Way Corps in residence training was so completely the opposite of what real Christian training would be. I think just about every part of the training was geared to do one thing. Teach submission. How to submit to the leaders of da way. That was it, plain and simple. Once you learned and your life showed you lived that one principle, you could go home.. I mean, you could go to your appointed slave position.

Abundantly?! That must be the kool aid talk of how wonderful everything is there with their "abundant" supply of in-rez corpse.. I mean, there's what, 10 of them?! Abundant.. lol..

Thanks for the insight OldSkool.. I remember when I was at HQ and talk of most Corps in my dept (Linder's dept.. Safety), everyone wanted out of HQ.. Myself included. It was like a waiting line I was told (I was at the bottom of that list). Some would get happy saying "I only have 1 more year after these placements, and I can leave!".. lol.. It was sad.. Really sad.. Especially when those who thought they finally would get to leave. They paid their time. Had been at HQ. Requested a spot and Linder said he'd try, only to then be talked out it or denied. Or worst yet, an non-Corps wanted to leave - in which case, they had priority. So another year. And that pushed the waiting list down again.. :( Maybe you can shed some light on what those wanting away from HQ to go on the field had to do to get away?! I can remember some coming up with things to do to help. Getting a larger family was at the top [aka Have a child, which was a no-no at HQ for Corps (at least while I was in).

Sometimes I'm never sure what went first. It's like at times there was a trickle of one or two, but other times a whole avalanche. But here's where my journey has led me. Like it, hate it, it is what I am, and where I am at this moment.. I do know I left because I realized they didn't care about God and His Word. That was started because I realized they didn't care about people. And that was started cause I did care and wanted to help! Since it was a financial topic where I wanted to help, that started all that. Eventually it led to realizing what was taught about the tithe was ungodly, but honestly that took many many years after I left. In the meantime, I think the first thing was realizing their definition of "love/agape" was completely unsound and unscriptural. That was realized while half in and the rest soon after leaving. Follow that with realizing dispensations/administrations was bogus and only kept the "special love" in "this supposed administration". Relearning what the OT really said then along those lines, their defining of "holy spirit" was tossed out because without dispensational support, it's meaningless. The "law of believing" went about the same time as "holy spirit" since I realized it really all comes to trusting God, not ourselves and our "spiritual gift". Next on the chopping block was the great divide between clergy/laity and that is a complete ungodly mess. As if we no longer are all priests. Romans 13.. It's sad I ever believed their take on that.. And I think that is about the time I finally came around to realizing the tithe was corrupt. Since clergy no longer needed it and its purpose was to take care of those who DID have a Genuine need not a need made up on their own (such as I'm going to b a minister, now pay me). And all while those were being re-thought out. I was in constant dialogue and debate with countless other Christians. A few from TWI/branches, mostly with other denominations. At first I threw the need for doctrine out the window since it was the culprit of all these divisions and hate (actually more so our own beliefs and unwillingness to accept other's different beliefs). So I figured love would cover it all. But after joining a group that lifted love way above doctrine, I saw how far in left field that would go and realized while love is certainly more important, doctrine does have a place, yet God's love does still cover! And lately in the past number of years. Realizing how fundamentalism is the mother of all &*%&^@#.. While the trinity may be a topic for others. I debated and dialogued with it for countless times. But I was a Trinitarian before the Way. I also was a Unitarian before. I have come to understand the many facets of it all, and really, while I am still a unitarian in most ways, the other's have good reason. Just not enough proof in any camp, Tri's, Unitari's, Modali's, etc... God's love will cover. The same with the dead.. As if our "belief" (law of believing) is going to change the end result! lol.. I've been up and down scriptures just like with the topic "who God is", and while I still hold to they are dead, I can see the other's have just as good reason. God's love will cover.