TrustAndObey

This is 11 here, Safety is too busy to answer, the adversary is kicking up a storm with the rain and they have to make sure no one gets wet from the adversary's literal rain. 11 out.

Geisha, please don't think I'm attacking your church group, or your pastor. I am just trying to get you to understand that there are more ways than just YOUR way.. Or your churches way, or your pastors way.. Christ body is diverse. And understanding how diverse is a wonderful thing. We are not all made to do the same thing. Work the same. Need the same thing. We are different, and God has blessed the body with those differences all to help one another. So I have nothing against you and your pastor and they way you meet as long as is godly. What exactly is "doing it right"? How does a pastor "do it right"? Maybe you'd like to define what a pastor does that doesn't go against scripture? If there is anything concerning position, then they have crossed God's boundary. Cause Christ is the only head of the body. Not a pastor. He is not your covering. He is not your head. He is not anything but a help, a guide, a servant, one in whoms life shows how to live, but he is not your leader. If he is leading you and you are following him, he has crossed that boundary. We are to follow no one but Christ. When Paul said to follow me as I follow Christ, it is not the same word usually translated follow. It is the word for imitate. We do not follow man! Any man. Not a pastor, not a teacher, no one but Christ. We may imitate those who walk in the light. The lead by example. But they are not to be your leader. That is position. And Christ never gave anyone a position above another. Mat 23 "They[Overseers] love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called "Teacher" by men. But do not be called "Teacher"; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders; for one is your Leader, that is, Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant." I'm sure the bigger the group, you can't. But then when God's spirit works in you a song to sing that moment, and you can't sing it, share it with the group, there's a problem. But the diversity in body is great. Let them all sing, let them all bring a song. That is what the scriptures say.. 1 Corinthians 14 "What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification." This is not like taught in TWI as the incorrect. This is the correct. That is what it starts with. WHAT IS IT THEN BRETHREN? WHAT IS THE RIGHT WAY GUYS? HOW SHALL WE DO IT NOW, FOLKS? And it lays it out. When you assemble, what to do.. Each one. Everyone. Share, give, let the spirit move. Only as each do, let it be done unto edification. But don't quench the spirit folks! So lets say while this "trained" pastor in teaching away this message which may have no relevance to the majority of people there but most listen anyways being bored to death. But we'll ignore that for the time being. But let's say he's teaching and someone has a question? Maybe God worked in someone's heart something to share.. Could he ask the question, could he stand up and share the mike? What does the scripture say? "But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;" Prophecy, a message God has given to someone sitting.. So let the first sit and be quiet, so what God shared can be shared.. Do you allow this, or does he go on sharing anyways, and anyone is admonished to wait till the everything is over or another day? The point of gathering is so everyone can get their needs met. Yet if you don't allow questions during the meeting, or quench the spirit in others while it is going out, and instead make them wait, you in effect have told God to hold off until we let you work.. I'm just saying.. Allowing God to work in the diversity in the group instead of placing the burden of the congregation on the "pastor" is unbiblical. Why should this one guy or group have the weight of God having to work in Him mainly on what is taught, on what is sung. On what is done. We are all brothers/sisters. And why do men/woman love to place other men over them! WHY! Why do they do like in the Old Testament and ask for a KIng?! Why! Why can they not allow God to work as he desired.. BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT ®A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM (U)ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.

Well, you guys, I don't think we should be tossing these rumors around.. I mean, there is no verifiable proof of her helping the forehead to the endless amount of in-res and staff women coming and going through.. Or even that she herself might have had relations that ended in progeny.. Honestly.. All speculation until it comes out in court.. So maybe we shouldn't talk about such things.. Course, it has been whispered. And we all know how those whispers might have some form of truth..

They meet where and when everyone decides to meet. You know, mutual decision goes a long ways. Part of being like-minded in unity, instead of being told when and where to meet. If you want to join, just ask. Or propose a time and place. An overseer.. Can you define that for me? Cause I think your idea is almost similar to that which is in TWI. Are they the ones who decide for you what is shared in the meeting every week? Do they decide for the group what everyone ought to be singing? Maybe they make the decision when and where everyone in the group ought to go witnessing or fundraising? Do they decide how the spirit leads the meeting or do they allow the spirit to move in each individual? Do they hog the mike and air time, or do they allow equal time for everyone to share whatever is on their hearts that God has been working without fail and without needing approving ahead of time or needing a "special" time for such things? Is that someone who oversees what you think and do? And when it's not according to their belief, what do they do? Do they allow such differences without ANY prejudice? Do they think they know it all and anyone who doesn't agree must be wrong?

All hail Gen-2..Our new WOGFODAT.. Oh wait.. She plagiarized from chockfull. All hail chuckfull our new MOGFODAT.. Oh wait.. He plagiarized the dictionary.. All hail the dictionary our new W(ord)OGFODAT....

Wow.. Thanks for sharing.. Hehe.. I have had many a meetings with many of old friends still in and many now out but in other churches.. But those in TWI and its offshoots, I always liked how they elevate "THE WORD" above it all.. With phrases like, we shared "the word" with one another, or "the word" was moving and hot, or you need to know "the word", it's the power of "the word" in your mind! I'm mean, are we talking about the living word, Christ, or is it this here black and white printed book?.. I mean, really, it seemed like the black and white words were coming alive and dancing after conversations with them. Kinda creepy Last TWI encounter I had, well it was a couple of them all at once (after a funeral of a prior believer that had left).. I let the TWIers ask the questions since I didn't want to look like the guy trying to pursuade them against it. If they didn't ask, I wasn't pushing. But they usually bite since they usually are trying to push their beliefs and get you to come back.. So I had this one friend, honest guy, ask me why I left, so the door was open. But wouldn't you know, Mr. I am in charge of this group of TWIers come over and told my friend, "Don't talk to this guy. We need to go.". So I tried to diffuse the guy, telling him this was a free country. That only got him more upset. Course, he got so upset he just walked off angry cause he knew I wasn't backing down and it only made him look more like an ar$e. And continued on explaining why I left and what I saw. Didn't pursuade him to leave, but he agreed he saw the same issues, but the local fellowship was sweeter. Yeah, well, not interested! I saw the "I'm in charge" guy a few more times in following week (meeting of friends of the deceased) and each time, he was sure to stay far away from me.. Acted like I had cooties or something! lol..

Avoid what? No one is avoiding that there are man made schisms that abound within Christ's body.. Some just overlook that silliness and are tired of man made labels or nametags or whatever... Wrong? I don't believe I used the word "wrong" to define man made churches.. I only stated a fact, they were built by men. MAN MADE. God has built one, called the body.. Christ's body.. The ONE new man.. So, I don't know, I call them like the Lord calls them, men made them. I didn't say wrong. I said man made. I have no doubt that great men of God have come together to serve Him. That's a beautiful thing. Maybe even something that God has directed in their hearts. But, by their own fruits you shall know just as any other individual that is part of God's body. I just won't divide them. They are all one as we all are to be. It is how "SOME" come together.. But please don't try and make the case that the way YOU come together with others in the body is the ONLY WAY. God's ways are varied. People are varied. What one needs, another may not. The TORAH was made for man not man made for TORAH.. Christ knew that, and thus he did not set boundaries on such things as THIS IS THE ONLY WAY to meet. I'm not criticizing how you meet, I am pointing out only that it was put together by men. That's all. Godly men, perhaps, I don't know, and I'm not the judge. Requires structure... Well, again, I think as long as the structure is the structure God has designed, great. Else, men's structures are just that.. So, what structures did God state? That's important to know.

My definition is simple.. One word even.. PEOPLE.. Ok maybe two.. People Together... Or three.. Likeminded People Together... Then there's the four letter version, but I should not speak such things...

Man made meaning anything Christ or God has not established. Did Christ set the Baptist church apart from the Pentecostals? Did God form the 7th day Adventists and not the non-denominational local group? They are all man made in that God formed the people, Christ leads them all and has not assembled them separate from one another, that was man's doing. Man's work. Man made. Yes, men print the bible. Even men translated the bible. And yes, there are errors in all such things man-made, including the translations. Did God or man set the structure... You tell me. God certainly called us all together unto one body.. What does man do? Instructions not given by God are certainly man made. Why should I follow men instead of God? Or why should I call men's instructions not given by God, as if they were? Is that not what happened in TWI? Every good work shall give account for itself whether it is of God or not. But I will not judge, except by their fruit. Men do many things they believe is "of God" when in reality it is not. I am guilty of this myself. I'm sure God brought many wonderful people together who are part of Christ's body, but only to do His purpose. Which goes back to again like I said before.. If we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. As long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help brought together by God for His purpose...

How does one "go to church", if we are the church?! So is there something in the scripture that defines what your "church" looks like? And what exactly defines a "home bible study" to you that does not define a church? To me it looks like you're trying to define something and laying a burden on the body that even our Lord has not laid.. Meeting with one another.. Sure.. But it seems like you are trying to define that meeting with words not uttered by our Lord for a reason.

How exactly are you defining "churches"? Divisions, denominations, groups, schisms, buildings, or the one body? *shrugs* I guess for me personally, I don't acknowledge any sort of divisional structure within the body of Christ. That includes labels of doctrinal beliefs that divide one group from another, or one of a myriad of practices within the "Christian" community. If I use the word church, it to me defines those who seek God and His ways. How they define Christ (one, not one, etc) has very little relevance with me. Ones doctrinal stance has no bearing on my view, since by their works, you can tell those who seek God's ways, and those who don't. And since those who seek God can be found in just about every church/denomination/group I've ever seen, then there's no sense in me making a big deal about who one is with (INCLUDING TWI).. So yes, I even include many in TWI part of the church. Abuse, like that found in TWI and many other schisms acting as the body, I don't believe is anything unique to even just Christianity. It can be found in many workplaces, families, nations, political parties, and social clubs. People pledge allegiance to so many things that they think is "godly" that end up taking advantage of them. I do believe that finding those whose lives show forth fruit, God's love, God's ways, I do think they are extremely helpful. They are a part of the church. God's church. I wouldn't say they are mandatory but they are helpful. And I also believe that they are just as helpful in your day to day life as a friend helping you stay on the right path. But if we are talking about the man made structures and institutions and groups and all.. They can be of help as long as they themselves can stay healthy. As long as they keep the perspective that they are not the head of any part of the body but their own soul. If they keep the fact that they are helpers and servants of those who are in need, not rulers and leaders of such. If they can advise and give guidance and help without trying to run someone's life or forsake them because they disagree. If they are willing to sacrifice themselves even for the lost which includes those who are not part of their "division" as Christ gave himself for us. If they can love their enemies and be willing to even lend them a hand. If their love never fails and continue in such, sure, they can be a wonderful help..

I think it was so they could help the local charities in New Knoxville, you know, kinda bribe the locals to actually think positively about them and ignore all the cult talk..

I was actually thankful for the no gift policy when it came out. I thought it was pretty stupid after the 10th time of taking PFAL or the new class that they still looked at you weird if you didn't contribute to the gift given to the class coord. and/or the MOG who taped it. Then after the no-gift policy, even more stupid (for me) was making those home-made thank you cards.. Even when we were in Corpse training, every regurgitated class especially those you'd been through a zillion times (maybe minus one, lol) and you were expected to give a thank you card... Worthless in my opinion. Course while in-rez they went through my thank-you cards with a fine tooth comb and would give me a face melting over any misspelt word, punctuation, or they just thought it lacked heart.. Course, unfortunately, the no-gift ploicy didn't seem to include all those "extra" perks the Corpse "asked" you to help them with their household chores!

Great topic. I debated about pasting this tidbit I wrote about the tithe, but decided to anyways cause I thought it might be helpful to those still in.. So bring out the pitchforks and ignore the long post and I will swear never to do it again! Malachi 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.” Now, depending on how you were raised, or what group or denomination you are in, there are many different perspectives on this verse. But I think more important than what another man’s perspective of what God said, or even my own, I think it is most important to go back to the source. The one who gave this message to Malachi in the first place. Why was it given? Why would they or even possibly us be robbing God for not giving tithes and offerings? Why would God need our tithes? What was the purpose for Malachi saying this anyways? Some discount his words by saying they are in the Old Testament citing administrational differences and therefore do not apply. But then in the same breath some denounce the law, they raise up a similar one concerning giving. Among some of the things today in Christianity that no longer show God’s true heart, I believe the tithe is one of these practices and teachings that has become far removed from its purpose. Hopefully this info will start to unravel some of the “worldly” ideas that plague this once godly and loving act and answer some of the questions that people could have. As with anything that is truly godly, that is, anything that God has his hands in should always share and show forth His nature. What we do know is that He is a God of love, and a God of light. A God of care and perfection whose judgments are always righteous. And it would only make sense that His ways will show that. When our Lord Jesus summed up the law and the prophets into two commandments, he said to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the other was to love you neighbor as yourself. So if there is anything we can know about the giving of the biblical tithe, it’s first that it was an act of love. Of course, before we look too deep into scripture, it’s first important to be reminded of what the actual word tithe means. Without that, we can get lost in the sea of religious connotations. Just as the words prayer, baptize, faith, God, and even salvation have become so religiously charged with certain theological mis-understandings, they tend to lose their true meaning in exchange for something very narrow and without much heart. As many already know, the word “tithe” just means “tenth”. So it would be just as correct to say ‘I gave the waitress a tithe of the bill’ as it is to say ‘I gave a tithe of my income to the church’. There is no “theological” control of how the word is used in the Bible, only in how it has progressed to its current day usage. And therefore it is important that when you see the word ‘tithe’ in the scriptures, you remind yourself that it only means ‘tenth’, because there are many ‘tenth’s’ mentioned in the Bible. As an example of this, you can look at Ezekiel 45:10ff where God explains their system used for measuring, just as a school teacher explained to you when you were young how to measure gallons and quarts and grams and liters. But in the Israelite’s day, it was an ephah and baths and homers…. Ezekiel 45:10 Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath. The ephah and the bath shall be of one measure, that the bath may contain the tenth(tithe) part of an homer, and the ephah the tenth(tithe) part of an homer: the measure thereof shall be after the homer. And the shekel shall be twenty gerahs: twenty shekels, five and twenty shekels, fifteen shekels, shall be your maneh. The actual Hebrew word usually translated “tithe” is ‘ma-aser. The root of the word being ‘aser’ which means ‘ten’ or ‘tenth’. And you have the prefix ‘ma’ attached which acts as a preposition meaning ‘from’ or “out of”. Thus ‘ma-aser’ has the side meaning of the tenth part coming “out from” the whole portion. Rather than just the root word meaning ten. Since the word itself only means a tenth, and can be concerning anything, then it is important to know the truth behind what people talk about when they narrowly define the word in Christian circles. Most of the time when people mention the ‘tithe’ they are referring to the Old Testament(Covenant)’s law whereby the Israelites were to give a tenth to the Levites, and while some churches continue with abiding by “some” of those laws, others do away with the specific laws only to institute something else in its place and label it as “sowing” or “giving”. The problem with re-labeling the ‘tithe’ of the Israelite law to something else or even continuing with abiding under the law, is that some keep the same narrow understanding of the heart for which the original ‘tithe’ was given and implement their own man made purpose into it. And it is this heart and purpose that is so important to understand, since it is precisely this that God’s nature and purposes are shown to us! As mentioned before, anything of God, should show forth who He is. And the different tenths he had the Israelites give in the law show precisely God’s heart. And in a simple word, it shows God’s love. Just as the living word, Jesus Christ came to reveal who God was and make him known, so the words of God shared to the Israelites revealed who God was to those with eyes to see and ears to hear. Remember again, the purpose of the scriptures is to reveal to us who God is, and His nature, that ultimately we might come to Him and have a living and real relationship with Him. Therefore, it is important that we get as clear and precise picture that we possibly can. The next thing we need to look at then are these laws given to the Israelites in the Old Covenant where they were suppose to give a tenth(tithe) for certain purposes. And one quickly notices when you do that, that there are more than one “tenth” the Israelites were suppose to give. In fact when all counted up there was a total of 33 1/3 that the Israelites ultimately were suppose to give. Of course one of those tenths wasn’t actually part of the Covenant law as much as it was a requirement that God warned them they would need to give if they did something. But now we’re jumping too far ahead. Let’s begin by looking at one of the tenths or tithes mentioned in the Law. Numbers 18:21-24 “And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation… But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. But the tenths(tithes) of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.” The first thing to notice is that this tenth goes to the Levites. It is for their use for the very reason that they have no inheritance. They were to own no land, no house, no property. And their work was solely doing God’s work in the tabernacle. So they had no crops or animals for food. However, they were provided a place to live by the Israelites, but they were not to own it. So they had a need, a need for food and clothing. And this tenth was a way God provided for their specific need. Not their greed. It is clear proof of God’s love for those who live for Him, and that he will take care of them. But lets look at another location where this same ‘tenth’ or tithe is talked about to learn even a bit more. Leviticus 27:30-33 “And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.” Now, God is a little more specific here on what “tenth” is holy and to be given. First we see that the tenth of the seed of the land and the fruit of the trees are the Lord’s and are holy. But yet the Israelites are allowed to redeem these. Meaning they can buy them back with money. But if they are going to redeem these, then they must pay a fifth more for it. Meaning they were to give 20% more than what the “tithe” was worth. But the Israelite is also to give a tenth of their flock, only this part of the tithe is not redeemable. They cannot buy it back. But notice how important these things are to God. These are holy to God and to be given, and if they wanted to instead keep the food portion and buy it with money, they had to give more than what it’s worth! That should show us how much importance God had on it being something able to be used and meet the specific need for food. And the herd and flock was even more important since they were not only a source of food, but also a source of clothing from their skins. So God’s love and care can easily be seen in that he made a way for the Levites to be taken care of. But as was mentioned before, there was more to be given than just this one tenth or tithe from the land. This first one was for the Levites to take care of their specific need, but now lets look at another tenth to be given. Deuteronomy 14:22-27 “Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household. And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee.” As is plain to see, this is a completely different tithe or tenth than the previous holy tithe that is to be given to the Levites. There is no ability for redeeming a portion of it, and in fact, for some, they were to turn it into money, and then buy whatever they want to eat and drink, and then enjoy it with the rest of Israel at the place where God chose to place his name which was in Jerusalem. This is usually called the Festival tithe, as it was a yearly occasion to bring the tithes of the land to this place and enjoy it with everyone that was there. Twice God says they are to eat it there before the Lord. So it was once again to be something consumable. Something that could be eaten there and enjoyed, and the purpose given is “thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always”. In other words, it was to be a reminder to them each year of God’s providence that they may fear and respect God, knowing it was Him who provides. And all the work that the Israelites put in each year was to be enjoyed. Again, showing God’s love and care to have them take the time to go to this holy place and relax and enjoy God’s prosperity given to them. But at the end, God says not to forget the Levite that has no inheritance, and to take care of his need also at this time. But now let’s continue in this section of scripture and we’ll see another tenth or tithe. Deuteronomy 14:28 – 29 “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tenth(tithe) of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.” Very similar to the previous tithe or tenth, only this time, this tenth is only once every three years. And instead of it being taken to the place where God places his name, instead it is to eaten there in their gates, or in their city. This is called the local festival tithe. Since again it is once every three years and the tenth was to be eaten there in the city. Only this time, it is for the whole city mainly to take care of the needs of the local Levites, the fatherless and widows and strangers. All those who have a need, it is to take care of them that they may also rejoice and enjoy God’s providence. The purpose given that the Lord may bless the Israelites in all their work. So we see God’s heart is to take care of all those with needs, and as a reminder as well, of God’s love and care for all His children. So far we have looked at the tenth to take care of the Levites need for food and clothing, the tenth to be taken and enjoyed at the place where God places his name and be reminded who it is who provides, and lastly, every third year a tenth to be brought before the city for all to enjoy and to take care of those who have need within the city. That comes to 20 1/3 of everything written in the law and each has its specific purpose of taking care of a specific need. But now there was one more tenth I think we should look at the Israelites eventually were going to give. 1 Samuel 8:4ff “Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.” As the nation of Israel grew, and Samuel the prophet was getting old, the nation of Israel decided they wanted a king like the other nations. Rather than having God to judge and direct the nation of which his judgments and direction came from the prophet, they wanted a man to rule over them. 1 Samuel 8:7 “And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.” Only God knew what would happen when a man is placed to rule over his people, rather than himself. And he warned them ahead of time what would take place. 1 Samuel 8:9ff “Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them… he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.” This is the government tithe or tenth. Today it is in the form of a tax. But it was because the Israelites rejected God and chose to put a man in his place. Therefore a tenth or tithe of their possessions, God warned, were going to become the kings. Until this time, the tenths the Israelites gave were to meet the specific needs within the congregation. And that was how God had desired and designed the nation of Israel to function. But as history points out, men usually gravitate to putting men in charge, rather than allowing God to lead. The result is instead of us taking care of one another, learning to live and love one another, and us trusting in God to feed and lead and direct us, we instead give man that honor and power and position. And ultimately that means the Israelites and even us are asked to give a tenth (or tithe) to the king, the government, or even a ministry, or organization where men reign and rule over where the money goes. That was not God’s heart since it was originally to show one another that God provides for us and we are to take care of those around us, rather than giving to a group that does it for you. Rather than God working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13), we force God to work in someone else when it’s the entire nation that was suppose to help and share in the hands on giving! So now let’s go back to the account in Malachi, and the verse mentioned at the beginning and see what God was saying. Malachi 3:8ff “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings... Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” God is very clear that the Israelites were to bring the tithes and offerings, and he is also very clear for what purpose. “That there may be meat in mine house!”. The Israelites had stopped meeting the needs of the Levites, who had nothing! The tithe was for their food and clothing., they needed the meat in God’s house to feed those working in God’s house! In other words, people who had a need were being ignored. The same thing God knew would happen when they went with having men rule. Since he would require a tenth of everything and decide and rule how things go, people stopped learning to take care of one another and left that up to the one in charge. They stopped looking out for those around them and expected the king to do it. And people got missed. God’s people! God’s people that had needs. And that is robbing God. Everything is already God’s. The earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof. So it is not that God needs your tithe. But He causes us to prosper that we might take care of not only our own family but those around us. But if we take and horde it for ourselves only, or expect those in charge to do it for us, we are taking it from God’s purpose to meet someone else’s purpose.

Poor, rich, weak, strong, the diversity in Christ's body is important. And not one is loved less/more, blessed less/more. If anything, I tend to see that the more one has, the more responsibility comes with it. It is all God's and we are just stewards of what He has allowed us to steward. And I know I am only capable of stewarding so much responsibility. With any resource God gives, it's always a matter of how can I best utilize it for His glory. How can I use this wealth, this position, this oversight.. It can be pretty draining, thus "wealth isn't always a blessing" is definitely true. Add on top of all the responsibility, the fact that it makes it all that more easier to forget who actually owns it and be thankful and accountable to Him. Sometimes people only see it from one side. The worlds eyes of, if I only had this or if I didn't have that problem.. The grass must be greener. Well, if it isn't this or that then it would be something else. So definitely God's point is to be thankful for what we have. And learn to use what we have for His purposes, because the more you have the more work you're given. So be thankful that God has kept your load light, or giving you the privilege to work overtime. It's all for HIM!

I think everyone gave great advice.. So I won't add to em.. I really don't know what you ought, should, or could do to get over them, it is different for everyone. But there was listed a great many suggestions.. What I can do, is suggest some things NOT TO DO to get over them.. Such as: Don't read another TWI book ever for a very long time.. Don't join another group especially one that had affiliations with TWI, at least for a few years (hopefully never).. Don't put your thoughts and life in a box, realize there are many possibilities, and no one has a corner on truth.. Don't put God in a box, and think any one or many groups have the sole answers to define Him.. Don't think God has left you, He worked with Israel for milleniums and still never gave up.. and overall.. just don't worry.. Take life one step at a time.. Each step puts TWI further away in the rear view mirror. But keep walking.. And of course, those are just what comes to my mind that might (or might not) help..

I think that's more the point than doctrinally what they believe. There's a zillion (ok, that may be exaggerated there) different beliefs people end up coming to after leaving, but to start your own group.. Yeah.. That's divisive to start with. If there was anything I gained from my TWI experience, it was realizing that we are all accountable to God as an individual, and not men. And any man/woman trying to set themselves up as head over a group, just doesn't cut it when Christ SHOULD have taken that position.. For the head of man is Christ.. Not another man.. Matthew 20:25 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the rulers of the Gentiles have influence over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall NOT be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your servant; And whosoever will be first among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Is it just me, or is everyone gearing up for a lynching here? Where's the love! Oh wait.. that only works when you're in debt.. James, If I were you, I'd stop cutting and pasting. I realize you're a busy guy, but.. Posting on a forum et al, it takes time and it's about building relationships. So if you ain't got the time to treat people with respect as people and answer their questions one on one but instead treat this place as an informal posting ground, well, you're going to find yourself bum rushed! That's the best I can do while I'm in this no debt situation TWI required me to be in...

I'm just wondering why no one at TWI has claimed how to silence these here debil spirits at the grease pit.. I mean.. Paul was able to. What's wrong? Rosalie so immature in her believing she can't believe enough to make us stop? What happened to that Christ in you, Mr. Linder, must be pretty small in that you can't seem to stop these small mouths here.. I'm just sayin...

I guess from a reality stand point, yes.. But from a cult stand point no.. They are all about control. If they don't have it, they try and gain it by whatever means possible.. Makes me really wonder what this summer's TWI music workshops will be like.. My guess is, BLAND! And wrought with more control structures..

Divisions... Distinctions... Synonymous words, yet can there be a difference? I would think context has more to do with it than anything.. I have no doubt, God still sees male and female humans.. Still makes the distinction/division... Context.. Some contexts, it doesn't matter to God. Other contexts I'm betting it does, even to God.. In my humble view, which can be wrong, so feel free to correct me, but: Salvation was always available to all.. Divisions / Distinctions / Differences of sex and even nationality never was a factor despite what dispensationalists like to claim. Who God picked to have His son, I am certain that gender distinction was important! lol And in many ways, I think God purposely throughout scriptures picked the "underdog" such as the tiny nation Israel or the short little dude David that He might show his wondrous power. (As Paul stated, "In my weakness He is made strong")

Regulated.. Yeah.. That about sums up TWI world.. Everything was regulated. And what wasn't(isn't) regulated, they are still trying to find a way to do.. This summer.. As in 2010.. They are attempting once again to regulate the music groups.. With all the young folks either closely watched or kicked out of the group settings they try to gather into, mainly they have a number of small bands started at HQ and in the larger limbs, TWI has decided to hold a Songwriting seminar/class at Gunnison, so that all these potential music groups can begin writing songs that are regulated and "TWI" worthy... Yeah, good way to once again squelch the creativity..

I don't honestly know what they were looking for.. I do know, that I was never pressured to go in the Corps. I went, because I always wanted to serve God.. I was pressured to go WOW/Way Disciple.. Pressured to do lots of other things I wouldn't normally do and sometimes felt wasn't right. But the Corps wasn't one of them. But I'm a guy, so maybe you have a point! This was in '97 that I asked about the Corps and was told straight out that I wasn't Corps material, and that I needed lots more life to live and experience to gain.. (6 months later they let me sign up.. W/o much extra experience in my opinion. or changes to my previous situation.)

You missed one Oak... 5. Read the review of the tape in the next bimonthly Way Mag... and for some.. 6. Listen to the review at twig of the tape's review in the just released Way Mag...

Just the fact that TWI's WC was promoted as a place where they would train you was off.. I mean, in the Marine Corps they at least train people for their job.. What job is TWI training people for, and how much training does one really need for that? Let's see, we were trained to do as we were told.. There was no training in scripture, since it was all a rehash of The Way classes. Bo1cha1k's public speaking stuff was a farce, IMHO. Oh, oh, I know, we were taught to climb rocks! Yeah, that'll help while leading people.. up a mountain! Yeah, I just don't get it.. 3 years of training when it really could be done in a week probably. And much of the training was wrong.. (The Way classes, Greek, Public speaking, etc, etc...) all so we could just follow orders and not learn to think.. Gee, I don't think I needed any time to learn that. Granted I was a late graduate.. After 2000... So it may have paled in comparison to the early days.. You know, the new dynamic church, always changing, getting less and less, and worse and worse, and one day, just a corpse left..