TrustAndObey

I tend to stay away from any argument of Sola Scriptura since it leaves no room for progressive revelation. If it had it's place, the grafting in of the Gentiles to the body, or the "secret" revealed unto Peter, would never have been tolerated. Prima Scriptura at least allows for revelation, etc... Fundamentalism.. In my view, and even according to the Wikipedia article, while has ties to the foundations, those foundations are set and untouchable.. Think TWI and it's belief in believing, tithing, etc. They don't change. And they, being the cornerstone or foundations of the belief system/doctrine, are therefore without question within the different groups. The problem is, sometimes, those foundations really aren't healthy! Both, I tend to keep as much distance from.. On the surface, they sound great, and maybe have great benefits, but so did the law and it was of God. The law was made for man, not the other way around. Scripture was made for man, and it's foundations and teachings likewise. But just as the law, they can very easily condemn to death the righteous. I gravitate more towards Prima Scriptura, but even then, within tolerance. And foundations.. Sure, we all have them. But I am willing to listen and prove other views out. Prove me now says the Lord. Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good.

Did someone say that 'SIT' would not be the "real deal" without agape? Or that somehow it transforms modern SIT into the real thing? I'm lost on that.. I do see the verse in Cor 13 about without agape it being just noise.. And I "think" the context to that, is that these things are to be a help a guide a benefit to others. "One" definition of agape is basically to give or to help meet a need. If we speak these languages "of men or of angels" without the view towards trying to help, benefit, or bless others, it's just noise.. To them.. I don't think that means it's not really speaking in a language "of men or angels", but that it's pointless. The same thing said in Cor 14 with the context again being benefit to the assembled body. Anything we do, if it's godly, ir's done with agape, else it's a work of man and doesn't profit. Kinda like saying if it's not done with agape(with a view to give or help), it's not agape (a help a benefit), and that should be our focus. To be that image of God for others to see, the image of Christ, that image which we were created in, which at it's root is agape.

Interesting.. I don't believe God's gifts have ceased and am willing to believe the reports of people SIT in tongues understood by a select few present. Or people being healed. Or words of prophecy being given to help. However, I personally can attest to none with 100% verifiable proof. 1 Cor 12 "As he wills".. I believe refers to God.. And thus, is at his discretion.. But then, I'm not a dispensationalist.. Not the classical, adaptive, or the progressive dispen. viewpoint. So when it comes to scripture, I take a Progressive Covenant theological view towards it. Meaning all scripture is relevant and progressive. While we are not part of Israel as a nation which by it's nature means we are not under that nation's laws (we do have to obey the laws of the country we abide in), scriptural revelation builds and progresses so that what is said before may not be understand until it happens and thus hindsight becomes 20/20.. As an example, Christ quoted a portion of the OT, "To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.." but did not continue "and the day of vengeance of our God".. Prior to hindsight, it happened in one full swoop. We now know it spoke of two different times.. Progressive understanding.. Scripture didn't change. But the understanding of a verse may..

But still God gives the words.. And you speak them.. So you don't "hear" them in your head. But I don't think revelation must be "heard", does it? It just has to be "revealed". Meaning the source didn't come from you. If it wasn't from you, and you didn't know ahead of time, and now you know it, isn't that revealing something? Does TWI belief say it bypasses the mind? Cause I know each word was in my mind before I spoke.. Proof I faked it? Or revealed to my mind? Again.. I'm trying to understand people's take on it then, now, however.. But know full well, that I think I faked it, and I think that current SIT doesn't match the Biblical record (but that's getting into doctrinal).

Let me help clarify the questions and purpose.. I see where I'm not being clear.. What I really am saying, is I do see what the scriptures say, and am not questioning it, but instead I'm asking a pure practical - what does each person say they get from it. Rather than quote scripture, I'm asking for personal explanation of the benefit in detail. It's easy to quote and say "it edifies me", it's another to explain how your SIT, if it edifies you, does such a thing.. Purely practical, non doctrinal, and purely personal.. Such as your example, "it would give you the warm fuzzy/comfort God's working in/with you....!".. That's what my question is after.. I'm not trying to define doctrine/scriptures, I'm trying to understand people's practical/personal understanding. Is that any clearer? The reason it is on topic, is Chock asked for proof we faked it.. I believe I faked it, but am willing to do a double check.. So I'll start with I don't believe I had any benefit out of it other than keeping the ever watchful TWI eye off of me.. Personally. Now I wanted to bless others, so yes, interp/prophecy came from inspiration, but were talking the definition of the words came from my mind, thoughts, and on the spot improv of what my brain could think of to bless others. If it's a shrug, ok.. How about others? How did it benefit you? SIT, personal prayer? And that led to the second set of questions.. Defining in detail, how these really work? Or so we say. Not doctrine scripture, but rather personal detailed practical info. I never really questioned TWI's understanding in detail, so I never formed a full, how it works in that much detail understanding. You speak, words are there, but where did they come from? From God? From His spirit in you? Clearly TWI said it wasn't your mind.. And so if from God, just cause it wasn't known seconds before, how is that different than revelation.. God still gave you, revealed to you the words to speak.. Just cause it was all happening at one time, how is different than? Clearly, I'm just trying to help in my understanding of what people think and believe. And am willing to check myself and explain away.. Ok, so did I do any better at explaining these questions, purpose, belief?

Actually my question while it may have some "doctrinal" points in it, and just like this topic can diverge also, the question itself I tried to keep on track wit this topic and "think" it has relevance.. But I could be wrong.. My question is not with the scriptures about being edified.. But rather what profut one gets from how SIT is done now days.. My personal view, and it is only that, is that the only occurrences of SIT in scripture in Acts show a language while maybe not understood by the speaker, was understood by those present.. And I see a benefit and a profit to that.. Even to the individual. But now days.. The gibberish, free vocal, groanings, or whatever words you want to describe today's acts as.. Where honestly is the benefit and profit? Is that still a doctrinal question? Not on topic? I'm trying to keep it about today's vs first century which I realize is still a "debated" question. Maybe I make no sense... :(/> And I'm thinking with this topic having doctrinal and practical points, it is hard to not go into both.. I mean, first, has anyone even actually described WHAT the heck is SIT that we all refer to.. I mean, today's version. What is it.. TWI said it was inspiration and not revelation, but that leaves "in my mind" more ???? than answers. What exactly does that mean? If the spirit is involved, is God? It is HIS spirit after all in us (despite TWI emphasizing OUR spirit, scriptures repeatedly calls it His).

Raf, I'm guessing that study didn't go far afterwards, since the whole "Foundations of the world" was still recited into the 2000s era quite frequently.. Course, this whole SIT, I think I'd be interested in what the point is in it.. Geisha just shared some of what I see from scripture But rather from the viewpoint of now, I see no benefit in the current age version.. Someone speaking unknown and weird sounds, to communicate with God? Let's see, God energizes the words, so He can communicate back to himself, in this private prayer language.. Am I misunderstanding this? Or is it your spirit that energizes itself and gives itself the words? Doesn't sound much different than God knowing your heart and needs already.. So umm, instead He decides we just need to speak weird babblings so He can once again hear about those things He already knows about in this private prayer language? Am I still misunderstanding something here?? And this is suppose to be the power of God? I'm just so not impressed, cause I see ZERO purpose or benefit. Oh, it's speaking those things you can't utter.. Right.. Well, that would handle it for me. God, Take care of things I can't utter.. See how easy that was using words I can understand.. So umm but instead we need to use these unspeakable oh wait their speakable just not understandable, these groanings that no one understands? Well, again I'm not going to know about them either way. I'm not trying to make fun of this beliefs.. I'm trying to understand the real benefit, not the fake ones TWI promoted.. Yes, I can read it edifies yourself.. So does pride and ego.. Or is it for those with low self esteem? Yeah, just still not understanding! Can someone help me understand what this miraculous gift done the way it is in this era suppose to accomplish in your private prayer life?!

I'm just going to go on record here to say that I think you both, Raf and Chockfull, are being way over emotional, negative, and clearly a hindrance to this conversation, and a terrible example of Christ's love, peace, and long-suffering. Galations 5.. Fruit of the spirit.. Let's see that in action please! Might I suggest some time off this subject?

I think you are confusing the distinctions in the word "all".. It had zero to do with "heteros" or "allos" (That's "another" vs "others"), and while VP screwed up by calling it "all without distinction vs all without exception", we all got the jist.. The word "all" in Greek and most languages can either be confined to a specific group or taken for all anytime everywhere.. The distinction should usually be noted in context, but not always. And with the section in Corinthians, the context is what? The gathering? Am I correct? If so, then how would "no one "within the gathering" understanding" be an abnormal understanding to this verse? From my viewpoint, to say that it MUST be absolute doesn't quite fit.. Could it, maybe.. But it would be like saying the verse about "nothing being impossible for you to do" is absolutely anything and has no caveats or smaller group of possibilities just cause the verse doesn't state it (And it also uses the exact same "no one/man/thing" Greek word)

I'm sorry to see this discussion turn negative.. It probably would be better those who posts are negative just stop posting those things that get into these nitt picking, tit for tat squabbles. And stick to discussing with those who are willing to discuss. Anything else is probably not the best for peace, love, and all that our Lord died for. Why I even continued reading, I don't know.. Maybe TWI installed in me a love for being tortured. Sick, eh? I'll admit I must be! Da#n this mortal body.. Both sides seem to have information, but all these squabbles are really killing the point, and even the profit of this discussion. Can we at least get back to that? Just to add my "hopefully" 2 positive cents, Is it possible chockfull that when it says "no man understandeth" that just like all could be all with distinction or all without exception, that the same could hold true for no one, no man or what ever the correct phrase might be.. So that is it possible the verse could be referring to no one "within a specific group" (like the assembled fellowship), as opposed to no man ever, anywhere, at no time, in the history of this world? Only a guess, but I think that is what both WordWolf and Raf have mentioned but maybe not as clear? I dunno.

If you asked me, and you didn't, but if God were to inspire thousands of these messages all the time as we met in these groups, if it was really God inspiring these things, you'd think He would be trying to get the truth out.. You know, the truth that most of us lacked until we left TWI. I mean, these messages were from God, right? And it was more important for Him to relate to us that He loved us by sending such a message, rather than showing that love by getting us out of that man made lions den? So God really wasn't interested in helping us to realize the reality of the utter BS that was going on around us. The lies, the hypocrisy, the corporation that wasn't of His doing? Instead of edifying and building us up, we were given a nice uplifting message anyone could fake, while we were left in that hell hole? I the Lord thy God love thee, and desire for you to walk with these wicked ones. May you enjoy sitting near the seat of scoffers, cause I the lord thy God will not guide you away from them! Be blessed and know that I am God! Yeah.. doesn't sit well with me either. But you know, it WAS GOD, right, that actually gave those messages all the time that were truly helpful?! Just checking.. I for one will admit, God gave me no such words.

Just to be clearer.. Realizing "NOW" that the word "inspired" has more meanings than I originally thought.. When I say i spoke inspired utterances.. Inspired by God.. Divinely inspired, etc, etc, etc... I am speaking of just being inspired as a painter is inspired by nature, or a musician is inspired by hearing a lick.. I in the same manner was inspired by God, not given revelation or given the words to speak, they were words made up in my brain, with my thoughts, which is always inspired by what our Creator has done.

A lie.. Sure.. It could be labeled that. I acted [aka lied] as though the "inspired" spiel I gave was SIT/Prophecy.. That was the lie.. Was it inspired utterance? Sometimes.. I was inspired to share a message at times (not the "message given by God's spirit" sort of thing), but other times, it was just say something cause I'm being forced to so mr grumpy doesn't .. well you know... I wasn't always inspired to share a word.. And I'm using inspired like the normal English sense of the word. Were any of those "inspired" words actually "a message from God" placed in my mind.. Well, then it wouldn't be inspiration, it would be revelation, now wouldn't it.. My take on it.. SIT, I have no doubt is in the realm of possibility, why else would scriptures speak of it. But what TWI/CES taught, was far from what the scriptures describe. There's only one actual detailed description in the scriptures, and if you tell me what we did in them meetings were in any way similar, yeah, well, I'm not that deluded any longer. I believe SIT serves a purpose, but not for what I believe we "forced" it to become, which practically is little different than the Pentecostals. In fact, all these manifestations of the gift to me is just plain ludicrous in how we promoted them. Not only is God's gift NOT referred to in the scriptures by the many "supposed" names (like "new man") Werewolf and co liked to refer to it as to try and cobble his doctrine together, it's still God's spirit and it's His choice not ours. So SIT.. Sure, when God decides.. But I wouldn't call what we did SIT, since it doesn't really match the scriptures detailed description. Inspired utterance, sure.. Just don't re-define those words with "religious/Werewolf" meanings.

Indoctrination into idolatry it was.. And there still wasn't a point in time when Corps was considered "capable".. You still were in kindergarten and needed constant training, i.e. Corps Night/Morning. I've heard maybe the few early Corps were given some room, but it quickly grew to what it was when I went. We were supposedly trained to be leaders of 10s,100s, or more. Yet in reality, The BOT/BOD looked down on you like you needed their ever guiding help. Corps Night/Morning to me was mostly a snooze fest or a weird trip into someones egotistal view that was out in left field. Granted there was the occasional helpful tidbit, but all along, there was no room to ask "real" questions. Sit, listen, and do as they say, they could do no wrong, even when they clearly messed up. Don't look behind the curtain kids, that's only for us "spurtual" ones.. And you kedz ain't got it yet! Yeah, even us Corps were treated like little kiddies. And if we went along with their curriculum, we imitated their ways and enslaved others into our own little kindergarten on the field or at HQ. And in many ways, we as Corps helped give their kindergarten class a greater reach. Go to Martindale's era where all Corps were to turn in their weekly schedules, both the planned and actuals. My God, it got much worse than kindergarten! You could barely take a dump without having it planned and approved! And for awhile after Rosie took over, the Corps were allowed to teach live classes. What a refresher that was to the Corps. The release of the kids out of class. To think for once. Whoa.. It was a rush! But only until she realized she can't control that, and needed to real it back in. Yeah, she learned, it will not happen again. And so life goes on as usual. But it's not just a problem within TWI. It's not just a problem within it's splinters. It's a problem within all of Christianity. As long as the majority of people consider church, something you go to, rather than something they are. Until they realize it's a gathering of adults who all have a say and a voice in the body, rather than the ruling elite/clergy. Until they realize that a gathering isn't for the purpose of being in a kindergarten class, but a gathering of equals that are their to help each other grow, instead of laying that task all at the feet of the pastor(s). Until the body wakes up, because it's been lulled to sleep from being in kindergarten class too long, and actually realizes it needs all the parts to FUNCTION and stop giving their control to the controllers. Folks. this is not a new problem. It's the same problem since the days of Israel, who were too lazy and wanted a King to rule over them. That same mindset today in the body says the same damn thing. They don't want to be responsible. They don't want to take charge. They would rather.. stay in kindergarten.. I'm sorry, but that is the damn truth. And most of Christianity enjoys it.

socks, love ya.. And I'm not doubting we had fun times.. I enjoyed the fellowship, the camaraderie.. Didn't matter what type of songs or what the org did. That's not really what I'm referring to so much.. Songs are songs.. Fellowship is great to. But when you get right down to it. When you get to the point to where there was suppose to be some "adult" communication time, learning time, it fell far short of what it should have been, where once again we were being led and we were treated like sheep that just needed to shut up and follow.. We were expected to stay as little kindergarteners that needed to go along with their "rule" of the schoolhouse, and while school can be fun, it's not a place for adults to stay unless you're dropping off your kids or helping the little wee ones! OH wait, we were the little wee ones, at least in "their" eyes. So the course they set for us was one of ever learning and ever needing to be taught by them again over and over... And even outside of TWI.. It's the same, unless you have some piece of paper and have been "authorized" by their council to teach, you just need to get in line with the the rest of the kiddies.. The songs continue, the fiddler never stops, and the kids keep a dancing, cause that's just the way it is!

I'm glad you've seen better.. I am being honest, It's rare to find one that hasn't grown up. And I have visited quite a few hundred churches since trying to find one that isn't, not that a few hundred is a large amount! lol.. But with very few exception, most all churches are ran like good ol' Sunday school, trying to teach those basic tenets that should have long been passed down. And to continue that teaching on grown adults who have been around for years?! What the ^&%$&% A few churches I went to, they have a separate Sunday school for the adults before the "main" gathering.. And outside of the fact that one setting had tables/desks and handouts, and the other just pews, their was very little difference to what was being shared and how everyone was treated. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.. The majority (not all, but most) Churches today to me act more like little kindergarten classes for the masses.. You are told what to do, when to do it, How to do it, and questions are rarely tolerated. And most all of it is a rehash from the most basic of things most would have heard at least 10 times before that same year. I'm just curious as to what it is people are getting at these "meetings"? It's like the apostle Paul saying all over again, "When the time has come that you ought to be teachers, you have need that one teach you AGAIN!". Why is it that we think that is normal?! It's bad enough our public schools have gone down hill that they treat middle and high schoolers like their kindergarteners and college students the same. Has our reading comprehension gone so far south that we are incapable of reading and understanding things, so we need someone to lecture on and on with the same information that can be found in the textbook right in front of our noses?! That's what kindergarten is for folks.. Have we not progressed to being normal adults that are capable of thinking for ourselves. Understanding and making connections on our own, rather than requiring to be taught before we "get it"? Is Christianity so "tough" that we have to have help remembering what the heck is going on and instead need reminded week after week?! What was it you learned at your "church" gathering last week? Was it really something you'd never heard, and didn't know? I used to hate that when I was in the Corps.. Constantly being asked, "what did you learn".. And I wanted to yell at them, NOTHING! There was nothing they said that I didn't already know. But everyone had to come up with something, and it was the same ol, milk toast thing you should have known from PIFLE.. "Oh, I learned to believe "BETTER"".. or "I learned to trust God "MORE"....".. I would much rather have a sit down "discussion" with people that are willing to THINK for themselves than sit and be spoon fed like I'm a baby the same thing over and over.. I'm sorry, I'm just tired of the baby food. Maybe some still like being in kindergarten.

I find the kindergarten like atmosphere of Christianity around the globe nothing more the by product of so called "leaders" that have no clue what they are doing.. And the only thing they are capable of "leading" is just that, a kindergarten class, no skills required.. The worst part about it, the "students" think they are in a prestigious school, earning their doctorate degree in Theology.. What a disconnect! Welcome too school little kiddies and open up your song book to page 14 while we sing... The class may now sit and listen to teacher so and so teach the same boring blue book beginner hog mush as usual.. And soon, class is dismissed, and the kids are off to the playground.. err. I mean the adults are back to reality.. And to top it off, many people put on their best dress so they can be humiliated and treated like kids.. I guess I shouldn't continue.. I once wrote a long diatribe on this very subject, I've since repented.. Not.

I think you just enlightened me.. All along the name kept me thinking they misspell it, should have been STFU, but alas I must have been wrong...

Mr. Lynn is not shy about his "priorities"... Especially when he is so vocal about his request for people to give money... Even in that "End Times" video series he goes on a side path of how Paul approved the right of a minister to ask for money.. And damnit, he wants $$$.. (Ok , that last sentence was added by me). If you've ever read any of his newsletters then you know John's desire.. Asking for people to donate a motor coach, pray for rich people to donate a million, requests for plane tickets so he can "minister" to their group. That's the TWI logic. The first of many points I brought up to TWI's top head honcho before leaving. And when I first involved myself with CES it wasn't like that... But it quickly became that. TLTF started with that crap.. I don't see it changing. It does mine too.. But then for some reason I still torture myself just so I can be assured I don't misunderstand their position when I talk with those in and explain the folly. Especially their "that's not written to us" indoctrinated crap. As if Jesus is not their Lord, and he expressed His and His Father's will very clearly, 'Freely you have received, freely give".

Yes, they really ignore advice that doesn't fit their preconceived notions. I was unfortunate enough to be asked to help them with their "new translation" and version.. And sadly, I met with them a few times to help. But it didn't take long to realize they really hadn't a clue. No one had any real skills in the language, and all comments concerning verses that weren't "positive" about John's view were quickly quashed despite clear evidence.. Looking back, I'm glad I left quickly. Only at the time (early 2000), I still had the TWI lenses of "magnifying the Word", or put in today's term, idolizing scripture. Thankfully we can grow out of that!

We are talking about the same John and John, right? The two guys who don't give a rats behind about what someone else thinks, but continues to spew their mantra?.. Yeah.. They both, STFI and TLTF still hold to the "seed" propaganda of TWI. And of course they still hold to the Super-Dispensation belief. I say super, because traditional Dispensationalism doesn't make the divide of the "born again" of the O.T./gospels vs the "born again" of the church epistles. Yet, it's not hyper dispens. either, since that's even further fragmentation of God's calling. Needless to say, TWI's view of h.s., and the seed, lead to a different dispensational view than tradition. And TLTF and STFI, John and John, still agree. That's not to say I agree with the traditional view of Dispensationalism either, but at least they didn't go to the extent of acting like the church was so "special" to be given this seed that wasn't even known about. As if it was part of this "secret" itself. I do still think there are some merits to the traditional view, but I lean much more to the O.C., N.C. view, or as most sadly refer to it today, O.T. and N.T..

I like that Kit..

I thought we weren't suppose to be thinking... OH wait.. I'm out. Personally, I put most of the things TWI taught about the "inner man" aka lower case h.s. in the dumpster. Just doesn't seem to jive with scriptures or if it does, it certainly didn't jive with the actions of the uppers that were supposedly operating. But I'm sure they were operating something.. Some spirit.. medium.. somewhere.. SIT.. Doesn't Acts 2 set the stage for how it all works? They spoke in those tongues, praise "TO" God, in words everyone could understand. It was in the foreign tongues that those foreigners present could understand, and then the natives locals tongue.. Most of the Psalms are Praise "TO" God, and it's supposedly for "our" benefit. Personally I think SIT should be a benefit for those who understand it of which there should be someone!, and Interpretation should be a benefit to those who understand.

Actually I would have listened quite openly while I was in TWI and before and now.. I grew up having an Aunt that devoted her life to being a witch, and not just a basic Wiccan groupy. No instead, she enjoyed for a time to terrorize our family she married into because we were Christians, and well, she hated that and didn't want her "new" husband to change his mind. lol.. I was glad the day she moved overseas, never to hear from her again. But the things that took place, yeah, it certainly wasn't the magic tricks you normally see. From her personal visits with threats that weren't just verbal, or fleshly physical either. More like lightning bolts inside the house, the whole mutations with a multitude of faces when you looked at her eyes. Yeah, she was a scary person. Never actually did any physical harm, just threats. Try being awoken at night with the sound of your niece screaming and hollering about our aunt. Yet, the niece isn't there. Her voice is. She isn't. Cause naturally it's 1am and she should be asleep many miles away at her parents. So you call her parents, and they check on her, only to have them find her in a corner looking scared and mouthing stuff, but with no sound on their side.. The phone helped clear up what was being said.. And those were some of the mundane stuff.. When my own mother trembles to her very core everytime she thinks of this woman or of devilish spirits in general even to this day. It wasn't just something "I" misunderstood.. Our family had to deal with it. With God's help! And it was real.

Are you sure about that? For some odd reason, I could have sworn that was one of the main points in Romans. For without death, life, the sacrifice of man's life, the shedding of his blood, we are still bound...