def59

Have a good one!

Mister P-mosh It is exactly that attitude that allowed the (Huns, Romans, Spaniards, British, French, Reds, Nazis and Borg) to run rampant over (Asia, Europe, America, Africa, Asia, all except Australia and Antarctica, Europe and the Delta Quadrant. I mean really.

The one issue everyone seems to be forgetting is that we live in a fallen world. Sin is rampant. From the first one to the cross, it required blood to appease. And Geo this isn't written to you, since your mind is made up. But science has found the Bible to be a good source of locating cities long thought to be myth, people who were long thought to be myth. You don't have to explain the genocide and cruelty of the O.T. god. You don't have to come up with an explanation for why bad things happen to good (i.e. Christian) people today. Children born with horrible defects, untimely deaths, wars, famine, pestilence, and just sorrow in general, become quite easy to explain when the Bible is regarded as simply what it appears to be. A collection of stories of a primitive, ignorant, and superstitious people. Geo, I am sorry, but this statement comes across as primitive and ignorant. You can be so full of it sometimes. The trouble happens when somebody baptises the book "Holy" and then all the excuses (and arguments) start. Why bother? I mean, REALLY... OK, we've heard this line from you, your sounding like Mike. What do you base your life on, what's your Table of Challenge, your concrete standard? Science? They can't agree on global warming, evolution, creation or why Johnny wets the bed.

Oak Ok my bad. All I am saying is that belief systems that become so antagonistic to others scare me. Whether its TWI, Secular humanism, RCs, Southern Baptists, talk radio, network news, or what. They all give me the creeps. I support our troops too. But what happened at Abu Ghraib is a taste of what is to come in our own nation. Our men and women are only human after all and if their commanders turn a blind eye or encourage behaviors, the worst will happen.

Back to the point. Do any of us fit in here. I see GSC as a endless series of square pegs and round holes. Because none of us fit, we all do.

Yeah, until your friends from those boards come into a Christian site and stir the pots. Everybody's a pain, that's what makes mankind fun.

VPW was a typical right-wing fanatic. He was anti-Jew, anti-Catholic and anti-a bunch of stuff. It was all draped in "rightly-dividing-the-Word" phraseology, but it was hateful doctrine. Is it any wonder Lcm got the mantle? His witch hunts would made Salem look like schoolyard teasing.

off subject But I've got family in Oz. GI fought in WWII, met a girl and moved to Melbourne. Always wanted to find my cousins.

Oak Even you have to see that human life has been devalued in our nation. All those video games have warped the younger generation. That attitude will permeate into the army. And the athiestic/humanistic philosopy can be summed up in this article: An atheist official complains that the Bible’s view of humanity is immoral By RICHARD N. OSTLING AP Religion Writer What’s up with atheism, agnosticism and humanism, movements that make a religion out of opposing religion, and often complain about media neglect? One current theme is that the Bible’s view of humanity is self-centered and ultimately immoral. That was pursued in Free Inquiry, the magazine of the Council for Secular Humanism, by Bill Cooke, who directs its affiliate, the Center for Inquiry. Cooke targeted the “anthropic conceit” asserted in the Bible from the creation accounts in Genesis onward. He complained that people mistakenly believe that “despite being one biped among millions on one planet among millions, the creator of this entire universe is interested in their welfare.” Oh, a personal God, that is immoral. He criticized sophisticated variants including the “anthropic principle” (the cosmos was fine-tuned to sustain intelligent life despite scientific proof of overwhelming odds against this) and “intelligent design” (evidence that the cosmos that exists couldn’t occur without guidance from some higher outside intelligence). In Cooke’s belief (or unbelief) it’s like “Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy,” and high time everybody ditched such infantile ideas: “We don’t matter to the universe; there is no bearded nice guy, vital spark, first principle, cosmic law or anything else.” More: The person-centered, biblical concept is “a sign of immaturity and arrogance” on our part. Words such as “I” no longer have any clear meaning because “there is no mind, soul or psyche.” Most important, “it isn’t true.” Conclusion: All religions propagate “dangerous folly,” “stifling certainties” and “foolish fear-mongering.” Atheism is not just the most accurate and coherent view, he maintained, but necessary “for moral reasons” because it fosters “cosmic modesty.” For instance? Cooke finds religion especially alarming because its focus on the human species creates “rampant population growth.” (He must have missed those articles on plummeting birthrates crippling European economies.) Humanists like Cooke belittle religion’s exalted view of humanity and individual humans at the same time that his movement champions “the need to respect the dignity and worth of all persons” and of each individual on the planet. That moral absolute occurs in Humanifest Manifesto 2000, promoted in the same issue as Cooke’s essay. Also, who counts as “human” and enjoys those rights? Not everybody, according to a third piece in the issue. Barbara Smoker, former president of Britain’s National Secular Society, expressed frustration that people resist killing off severely defective newborns, what she calls a sort of “very late abortion.” Her view contrasts with the Bible’s emphasis on each individual as a divine creation, for instance God’s words to Jeremiah: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” Smoker said most secular humanists desire legalized mercy-killing and assisted suicide for oldsters with incurable ills they find intolerable, and for the comatose (“post-persons,” another humanist calls them). She acknowledged that mercy-killing imposed upon newborn humans is different because it cannot be voluntary. Nonetheless, it’s “immoral to preserve a baby’s life” when handicaps are such that observers think “chances of happiness are manifestly low,” she said. Death should be ordered “on behalf of” the child to be killed. Smoker thinks that starving defective newborns to death by withholding nourishment is better than letting them live, but prefers “a quick lethal injection.” Then again, maybe humanity, and thus humanism, are out of date altogether. A package of articles in another issue of Free Inquiry proclaimed the rise of the “transhuman” or “posthumanist” outlook. Austin Dacey, who directs the Center for Inquiry’s science program, wrote that secular humanism’s belief in human perfection through education inspired the new “transhumanism,” which seeks to “transcend” today’s human race through direct modification inspired by Darwinism, employing all biological and technological means. Humanism was great “but its moment may have passed,” said Dacey. ——— On the Net: Council for Secular Humanism: http://www.secularhumanism.org OK So is atheism the moral high ground? I see this and shudder and what will happen to the human race. Disposable people, transhuman Science Fiction is coming true all right. Trekkers, remember the Borg, as far-fetched as that seems, these humanists want to see it come to pass.

Garth You brought up the accusation in the first place about Hatch. Oz I used to be non-Trinitarian and but now I believe it. I have hear the JWs wrote their own bible to justify their beliefs, TWI was trying to do that with its Aramaic, but the text wouldn't support the doctrines. I worship Jesus, the Father and the Spirit. The Bible nowhere condemns worship of Son nor Spirit. We call non-Trinitarian beliefs heresy. I am reading a great book, "The Case for Christ," and it may be good a start for many here to see that the traditional, orthodox faith has a great, rational and historical foundation.

That was some postcard, maybe you should take a break from the postal service ;)-->

Very touching story Belle, I wish you well in your life. Vio con dios

Unfortunately, there are atheists in foxholes, dmiller. The Red Army was full of them and so is our Army infected with them. People so filled with the world's bile that human life mean's nothing anymore. Sad as our nation turns 227, we are pulling away from the moral footings that made us great in the first place. Many have made a point that we have lost the moral high ground in Iraq. I say we never had it the first place. We sacrificed our moral standing on the altar of convenience and choice years ago. Thirty million severed. Talk about a holocaust.

Bro, I know how you feel and what you are going through. Be patient, God will take care of you.

Garth Here's something else, many Christians I know will find allies on certain moral issues from different pools of thought. Sometimes its Mormons, whom we admire for their strong family ties (although some get too tied up) and disciplines. We can appreciate Muslims for their belief in God. Dittos for Jews And sometimes, atheists like Nat Hentoff, a First Amendment scholar who is pro-life on biological grounds. We would still want them all to come to a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, but that is an individual choice. So again, can you demonstrate how you never act hypocritcally?

I am conservaive, (Gasp) but as a Christian, I take Orrin Hatch with a grain of salt, as I do with all politicians. But how many do you disagree with philosophically that you may have similar political affections with. When you can demonstrate no hypocrisy in your life to the rest of us, maybe you won't be so smug to shoot from the hip.

Didn't vic say he taught prosperity when he pastored a church? But the board gave him grief?

Dmiller It is generally accepted that Matthew was written to a largely Jewish audience Mark to a Greek Luke for an accurate news account John to cement the true identity of Jesus from agents of heresy. Take a good look at Church history, and not way-think and you may find a good story. It will take courage to face other thoughts, we we were taught (falsely I believe) that were born of seed boys. I would recommend "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. This goes for anyone.

Steve -- personally, I think God invented dispensationalism when he booted Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. Things changed, and He was forced to deal with it. :(--> Dmiller- Do you God was surprised that Adam and eve sinned? Do you believe God is sovereign and ominiscient? If not, I'd like to see your verses.

Oz Would it shock you to know that most Christians would never consider you a Christian because of the your JW background. Cults and heresies are not looked upon with an approving eye — and JW's Mormon's and TWI's are tops on the Cult awareness boards.

Oak Sounds like you want a God that is more like Santa Claus than a just and holy being. He's the same God in both testaments. It is the NT that reveals Him to us all. Where you blood and carnage, I see a God pleading with his people to come back. I see him accept Gentiles because they have a better heart. If you chuck the OT, then the NT become null and void, because they are linked. Getting a handle on Paul and Peter and John comes from knowing the OT. As for disagreeing with how God handled matters, well I can't say anything that will change your mind. I pray you will find peace with it though.

Agreed Oak I will miss Dot, and I share her sentiments and guilt over not standing up. God Bless You Dot.

I am so dejected by these rejections, that I feel that I may be infected.

So Oz are you blaming God for your mom's death? It's natural. Wrong, but natural. Why are we surprised by death, everyone dies. Why do we blame God when someone dies? And then we use that anger as justification for unbelief. I am sorry you were in a screwed-up group just like we are, but don't let the demonic teachings of one group spoil the whole basket for you. And Refiner, most of us who post here are in America, so we think of GS as America. Remember, you don't know us, or our past, and you seem pre-occupied with learning error instead of truth. Crack open an NIV sometime and see God's word from a different perspective. Crack open a history book too and try to imagine speaking German if America hadn't saved the mother land.

Raf Learning of your background allows me to understand you point of view, ex-JW and TWI? Wow.