def59

Mike So far 30 out of 32 people (93.75 percent) disagree with you. Def

Well imbus, 500 eyewitnesses of his ressurrected body is pretty impressive to me. I believe he is who he said he was. He said he was the Son of God, Son of Man one with the father, and said he will come back someday. Please don't let twi's stupidity cheat you out of a great relationship with the Lord.

I am not a proponent of dispensations, but I see some problems with covenant theology as well. Covenant people like to take a lot the rules for Israel and put them on Christians.

Hey Dmiller I know we don't agree on much, but I thought I'd say hi, god bless and thanks for posting. Def

Here is a response I saw in reference to biblical unitarianism I thought some might enjoy to take a whack at. -DEf "I had this on file in my computer and while the references can be multiplied (see for example "The Trinity" by Edward H Bickersteth -excellent short book, still in print and probably not bettered although written a century ago; or any orthodox systematic theology under Nature of God) the approach is very sound. The Bible establishes the Trinity by declaring that there is only one God, that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit is God, and that each of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are real persons. Hence -One God in Three Persons. The Persons of the triune God. How does one describe a person? A person has three qualities which set him aside from objects or forces. Firstly a person has a will, he is able to make decisions, secondly a person has emotions, he is able to love or be upset, and lastly a person is able to intelligently reason, he has an intellect. When some undefined object or item has these three abilities it is defined to be a person. Not necessarily a human being but possibly an angel, demon or even a member of the Godhead. There are three important questions which must be asked concerning the persons of the Trinity: do they have these qualities? Firstly, the Father: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16, NASB) Obviously this is speaking of the Father, Jesus is His only begotten Son. The Father loves the world (emotions) and made a decision to send his Son (will) and did this to save those who choose to believe in Jesus (intellect). The Father is thus defined to have all three qualities. Secondly, the Son: When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her, also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit, and was troubled, and said, "Where have you laid him?" They said to Him, "Lord, come and see." Jesus wept. And so the Jews were saying, "Behold how He loved him!" (John 11:3 3?35, NASB) In this passage Jesus is seen to love and be troubled (thus having emotions), making a decision to raise Lazarus from the dead (will) and ask for the directions to Lazarus grave (intellect). The Son is therefore shown to have all three attributes. Thirdly, the Holy Spirit: But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. (1 Corinthians 12:11, NASB) And while they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work which I have called them." (Acts 13:2 , NASB) For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials. (Acts 15:2 8, NASB) And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:3 2, NASB) The Holy Spirit can be upset (emotions) and make decisions (will) and evaluate what He wants to do (intellect). Thus even the Holy Spirit is a person. For a more complete discussion of the personality see below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit. The last point to labour for proof of the Trinity is that of the deity of each of the persons. Firstly, the Father: For even if there are so?called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for use there is but one God, the Father... (1 Corinthians 8:5/6a, NASB) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens... who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.(1 Peter 1:1/2,NASB) The Son The Father is called God. There is no doubt about that, but what about Christ? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1, NASB) For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6, NASB) The Son is called God. For a thorough discussion of John 1:1 see below in the chapter on the New World Translation. It suffices to say at this point that the clear teaching of the Bible, as cited above, is that there is only one true God. All other gods are false. These references must therefore show that Jesus is the true God. Lastly, the Holy Spirit: But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit... Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3 , 4, NASB) The Holy Spirit is thus called God. A thorough treatment of the deity of the Holy Spirit also involves a careful examination of His names, works and attributes. This is done below in the section dealing with the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is thus proven. There is one God and three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; each person is called God. No more proof for the Trinity is necessary. There are a number of trinitarian passages which, when understood in the light of the above passages, shows the teaching of the triune God: The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."(Luke 1:3 5, New International Version) When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too, And as he was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."(Luke 3:2 1?22, New International Version) May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.(2 Corinthians 13:14, New International Version) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever ? the Spirit of truth.(John 14:16?17a, New International Version) Then the Lord Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:18?19, New International Version) The resurrection of the Lord Jesus is the greatest historical occurrence ever and in which the whole Trinity was involved. Firstly the Lord Jesus prophesied about this that when he was killed he would raise up his own body within three days: The Lord Jesus answered them, "Destroyed this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty?six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body.(John 2:19?20, New International Version) Secondly it was also the work of the Father: They tell us how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead(1 Thessalonians 1:9b?10a, New International Version) Thirdly the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead: He [the Lord Jesus] was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.(1 Peter 3:18b, New International Version) And yet God raised the Lord Jesus from the dead: ...but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.(Acts 10:4 0, New International Version) Conclusion When all the biblical teachings are set side by side and compared openly the only conclusion is that there is one God, and that He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."

Raf Yea! I am struggling with this issue. My wife is really hammering at me to tithe, but I am having doubts. I am prospering well now and I give what I can, because life is expensive, even at the basics. I looked at some OT records and they say the tithe is 1. Produce from the farm 2. Intended for the people 3. To supply a huge feast 4. The Levites were to bring a tithe of the tithe to the storehouses. Which makes me wonder if the teachings from Malachi are right or not. Other things I have found Abraham gave a tithe not of his land or crops or herds, but of plunder that he got when he rescued Lot. Jacob promised God to give a tenth if God met certain conditions, but I can't find anywhere that Jacob ever followed through. Maybe I am wrong. And the New Testament is replete with cautions about giving freely and determining what each can give. Does no one realize that many Christians were persecuted and/or slaves. What were they to give in the first place?

I think twi created pc. Never speak evil of leadership, Reagan or Republicans — at least in the early 80s.

It is amazing that he claimed a heritage link with the very same Protestants he lambasted in his class and other teachings.

Om Not to derail this thread, but check Christianity Today web site -see history and see where the gnostic influence came in to the church.

Well that's where I am at, but my pastor is a big tithe promoter. I am working towards that, because that's my decision.

It was long and interesting. We should address his concerns about gnosticism and its alleged influences on vpw and us. Also, I believe we need to look beyond TWi-influenced teachers and scholars to gain a better and fuller understanding of what Christianity is all about.

This guy's critiques sound like ones I have heard of the "Da Vinci Code." Gnostic influences on Vpw?

Hey I know Raf has done some work on this, but I was curious how everyone felt about tithing. I have looking at pro and con Web sites and I am confused. Any thoughts?

I know all that Raf. I just wanted to be clear in our understanding of the others belief that we both feel our points are biblical. -->

How about Ellen Degeneres as D**na?

To be fair we should call the dispute biblical trinitarianism vs. biblical unitarianism or tri vs. uni with the biblical as understood.

They said they were wrong once, but later then said that was a mistake.

I miss the Rock. I had a blast between the teachings. The fellowship was great and Mountain Dew Parties were memorable.

So Raf, How's the job? I am wrapping up for the weekend.

I just read Raf's reply so I am retracting this post.

Goey You miss my point. I am amazed that anyone still clings to vpw's doctrines given that his life never came close to matching the lofty ideals he espoused. You can't judge a book by its, just open the pages and see what's inside. As for my beliefs on the Trinity and other issues, those came from reading and studying the Word. I have stated previously that I was non-Trinitarian before I joined TWI and while I was in. A few years after I left, I started looking that Bible afresh. I saw the Word in a new light and for me the answer was simple. If you have a different conclusion, so be it. I hope God has mercy on both our souls.

Goey Then by your standard, Jim Bakker should still be a minister and the same goes for Jimmy Swaggart. And let's not forget those fun-loving guys with the white collars and black suits. What'a little sex with minors when we are talking about God every other day.

Well Goey, I think a man's life shows where someone is spiritually. I know from personal experience. But we are to judge the spirits and see if they are true or not. I think vpw's tendency to make Jesus and His words irrelevant a clear signal that vic's doctrines may leave much to be desired. But to each his own.

After seeing this thread bantered about, I can't help but wonder, considering how evil our "teecher" was, how can anyone still cling to his beliefs?

I was sick at home battling some debilitating affliction that sapped me of my strength. I refused medical attention and gradually came out of it. So when my TC called, I said "well I am sick right now." A couple of days later I saw a newspaper article that he died. Too bad no one would come clean with why and how he died.