Kevlar2000

Thanks WhiteDove! It's making so much more sense to me now. It supposed to fit like a hand in a boot! (maybe that's because I threw out the baby and kept the bathwater. Ummmmm, waaaarm.)

Or maybe LCM was thinking about candystripers at the time. :)

Tonto, maybe they're just people looking for easy answers about the bible. Not looking to be a hard-core research geek (sorry about that, Research Geek), and turned off by whatever other religious experience they've had. And maybe sometimes one doesn't know what are the right questions to ask. Maybe it's just inertia. Maybe it's the analogy others have presented here about the frog not noticing the increasing water temperature in the cooking pot until it's too late. Maybe it's...a lot of things, keeds. That's why I'm thankful there are places like this. For whenever people have had enough. T-Bone, I'm glad to see your training hasn't deserted you. "Train a child in the way he should go, and, when he is old, he'll wonder what the hell THAT was all about."

I would be surprised if any high-ranking person in that organization ever made anything more than a token, vague apology. Especially for the newer disciples, it might engender more questions than answers. "Why are they apologizing? Did somebody do something wrong? Who did it? What did they do? Are they still doing it? How long was it going on? Who else knew about this?" Anyone asking such questions would probably not get a straight answer from the Way hierarchy. It might even force them to search the Dread Internet from Hell. You know, in this day and time and hour (intentional trigger words - ), before I got involved with any kind of group, I'd want to find out as much as I can about their history, especially an organization that claims to have been around for 60 years. I would be suspicious of an organization's website that claims to have taught biblical accuracy for so many years, yet has virtually no historical information available, and hardly even mentions its founder and 1st president or sucessors. Of course, the vast majority of the people mentioned in any of their past historical records (Way magazine, books [Way-Living in Love, VP and Me - hey who's VP? Who's Me?], SNS tapes, Rock of Ages tapes [Rock of Ages? Whooa, what's that?]) no longer affiliate themselves with the Way, and it might just be too darn embarrassing to publicly admit why the vast number of former adherents no longer "adhere".

I once heard Mr. Wierwille explain his "hand in a glove" analogy. He was referring to a large glove, like a farmer's work glove, in which the hand would easily slide, not a form-fitting glove in which you would have to tug and pull. I think one of the reasons most of us thought "tight-fitting glove" was he usually would also say in the same sentence, "...and works with a mathmatical exactness and a scentific precision." Exact...precise...connoting tightness, not a lot of wiggle-room. IMO, this is an example of why it's difficult (if not impossible) to promote the "no private interpretation" doctrine as meaning "there is only one correct way to read and interpret God's words and will." We were speaking the same language, living in the same century and country, but our understanding of what someone else says or writes depends greatly on our upbringing, education, and experiences.

"...I get to go and hang sheetrock all day." Well, at least we all know it will be well hung. (omg, did i really say that?!) :blink:

They may have meant the word "Ciao" (also can be spelled ciau), which in Italian can mean "hello" or "goodbye".

:o Great googly-moogly, Evan, what happened? (beyond the obvious, of course) Is everyone all right?

Dear Mr. Pipes, Allow me to also welcome you to this interesting discussion forum. It, and it's predecessors, have provided some real eye-openers. I appreciate the points you made in your letter. They were pertinent and well thought out. I am disappointed, although not surprised, at the responses you received. Since you directed the letter to Rosalie Rivenbark, you should have at least received a form letter thanking you for writing, and telling you your Limb/Region Co-ordinator would contact you to discuss this more fully. Then again, they may not wish to commit to written responses (especially about the "no debt" mandate) which could be held against them at a later date. It may also speak to the disconnect TWI Directors feel with the "little people" that they don't address these concerns themselves. Even with the rationale of "the L/R Coordinator knows this person, and can address the 'real' reason they're bringing this stuff up", you didn't write the L/R Coordinator. You took the time, effort, and concern needed to put your thoughts and issues in writing and sent it to the person most responsible for Way policies and procedures. You should have gotten at least a token response from her or the Board of Directors. I mean, jeez, they can't be that busy! I was interested in some of the responses: No reason or justification. Not even a presentation of the benefits of that policy. "It is because we say so, and that's that." As long as you don't discover and teach things not supported by the Way International. I once had the pleasure of attending a teaching by the parents of someone in our fellowship. The parents had taken the Power for Abundant Living class in the early to middle 1960s. As I had not met many PFAL grads from this era, I was interested in their perspective. What followed was definitely not within the Way orthodoxy. Among the points I remember most was the assertion that Jesus and his family must have visited Europe (specifically England) during the years of his youth not spoken of in the bible. I said in my Waybrainedness, "Man that's so off! And these are PFAL grads?!" I understand now they had "worked the Word" and other materials for themselves, and had come to markedly different conclusions than Mr. Wierwille had. And they had been able to do this because at that time, Mr. Wierwille and company did not and could not have had the kind of "like-mindedness" control over these people that came to be the hallmark of TWI in later years. "No debt" or similar edicts would have been met with, "Who the hell do you think YOU are?! All I did was take your bible class! I don't owe YOU anything! Good-bye!" I had not heard the gang infiltration reason before. (I'm not saying there wasn't; I don't know) Has anyone else on Greasespot heard this one? I'm surprised to hear the more or less official acknowledgement of the "splinter" groups from an official "representative." And how is TWI expanding? Not in numbers of adherents. Not in name recognition or influence (99% of the people I know have never heard of the Way). Not in physical acquisitions - most of their properties have been sold off. Again, thank you for posting the letter and the responses. Your letter may not have gotten a response from the BOD because it hits them where they live. It also occurs to me that the way the L/R co-ordinator responded may indicate they have their own doubts about Way policy. My best to you, Mrs. Pipes and your family.

And all Greasespot gathers to watch and wait. Thanks Oilfieldmedic for the morning chuckle. I get the feeling when the "leadership" read the verse, "you are not your own, for you are bought with a price," they thought "the price" was their bible classes, and "you are not your own" meant "your @ $ $ belongs to us now." Kinder? Gentler? Or is it that the "leadership" have temporarily backed off from their overt terror tactics in favor of more subtle intimidation? Real change won't come until the Way's followers en masse come to the realization that: Way "Leadership" is not "the voice of God", Jesus Christ is the head of their fellowship (as well as their lives), If a "Way edict" sounds stupid, it probably is, and they don't need to follow it, If some Way employee or appointee becomes verbally or physically abusive, call the police. Restraining orders and lawsuits seem to have the most amazing calming effect on that organization and its enforcers. You don't have to take their s__t. A "biblical research, teaching and fellowship" organization which discourages you from doing your own research (and possibly coming up with something different than that which they teach) ain't much of a research organization. Without that, what makes them any different from the myriad "teaching and fellowship" ministries scattered about?

ChasU, Check your private messages.

Haveta say no - The Way no longer offers anything in which I'd be interested.

Does anybody know why TWI endorsed this so much? I remember hearing a lot about the Corps and staff "having their colors done", and wondering why this was so emphasized. Seemed like a passing yuppie fad to me. BTW, my colors are "what's on sale".

Pretty much the same experience I had as a Twig Co-ordinator. At the time, I didn't even know the man was sick, much less dying. And of course, we weren't privy to the reason why he died, just the "he was tired of the fight." I always hated how you had to be a "ministry insider" to get the non-sanitized, real version of what happened. But that's ok. It just made it easier to leave when I did. A sick, mean part of me wonders if this lack of information, and Wierwille's lessening of importance at the Way in general, sprung from "leadership's" secret desire for him to just dry up and blow away.

You know, I used to be able to do that bit in twig, and get laughs instead of "spiritual probe-ation". How times have changed.

IIRC, that was an old Don Imus bit, modelled on the Rev. Billy Saul Hargis's "ministry". Located in Del Rio, Texas, "Holyland, USA", the gold buckle of the Bible Belt. Among the various bits at which Imus poked fun was the Heavenly Body Dating Service, Where you could get a girl that walked with Him... And talked with Him.... And sleeps with you, Say Hallelujah, Say Amen! (Man, that was a long time ago!)

I love the dialogue that goes on here. Alternate points of view from alternate realities. And all of it, all of it, helps me to root out lingering "waybrain". Stuff that I don't even remember learning comes out of the discussions. I see it, remember that I used to fervently believe some of this crap, and can think now, "WTF was that all about?" Yes, I would prefer the discussions be thoughtful, insightful and considerate of each person's human dignity, regardless of their belief system. I would much rather have positions and rebuttals argued than people slammed. But I don't get everything I want. And, after the way, I can be content with that. And I realize this is also just a discussion forum. If it gets too deep or intense, I can log off, shut down the computer, get up, clean the bathrooms, take a walk, go to the library, read the newest Christopher Moore novel, rent a movie I didn't see at the theater, sing, go see a play or concert or opera, think about not going to work tomorrow (yeah right)... Sometimes you need to take a break, gather yourself, and do something else to maintain your sanity. You're free. Really. Belle said "wimps". hehheh, hehheh, hehheh.

Okay, but you have to get me a beer first. And make it fast. *g* Happy Easter!

Well said, Zixar. And nice to "see" you again!

I just wonder if they might have been subtly "speaking in code", indicating they were aware of a certain someone's proclivities.

Dan, ROTFLMAO! That acronym reaaally, reaaally needs some sort of mascot. "STIFFY - Standing firm and erect at the Bema!" *snort!* But seriously, why not eliminate the printed publication altogether and simply publish it as a Webzine? Save a tree, and all that.

The Gospels and Acts (in fact, most of the bible) are full of people's "experiences". You know, like Jesus, Paul and the others? Are their experiences valid? If you never have any experiences that validate at least some of what the bible says, why would you continue with it?

I'm not sure why they would need 3 vice-presidents, a secretary-treasurer AND a cabinet for an organization that small. Even if rickyg is correct in assuming one of them will eventually assume the skunkpelt of the presidency, what are the others for? Pool boy, cabana boy and marimba boy? Or maybe it's to assist the Holy Mother ChurchLady in transitioning THE ministry for our day, time, hour, second and nanosecond from the Promised Land of the Prevailing Word into the Soporific State of the Somnambulistic Sojourners. Oy.

That's truly sad...because that's their loss, ex10. WhiteDove, perhaps the problem has more to do with an inculcated "us vs. them" mentality than disagreements over minor issues of doctrine. Anyway, ex10, maybe someday they'll "get right with Jesus" and lose the pig-headedness (not talking about you, Psalmie! ).

If Dorothea Wierwille wasn't a bona fide employee of the Way International, they may have not been able to legally pay for her medical needs out of their corporation insurance. But that would not have stopped them from asking "The Household of Faith" for special donations and abundant sharing, as they did for things like the auditorium (whatever they're calling it this year), and, IIRC, the motorcoach. In fact, I seem to recall something about the church taking care of widows and orphans in that book they say they study all the time...