Rocky

I will need clarifications/responses to my other questions before I will feel comfortable responding to yours. Thank you.

Alas... there was no way to enforce any "truth in advertising" provision whether it was enshrined in any law or not. I applaud you for the acronym more fairly characterizing the situation.

I can't say what is the most common objection, but it certainly seems that IS A common reason. Gabe, I look forward to your clarifying responses.

I'm not going to defend wierwille or guess as to why he did or didn't do or say any particular thing. I'm not engaging in this for anything to either prove or disprove anything about wierwille.

Is this the foundation of the logic on which you rest your case? Other than asking God to reveal the importance of this as the most important commandment that most of us (including me) have been ignoring?

Is this the question you are asking me, whether I agree with the bible verses you are sharing and whether or not I see ambiguity or contradiction on the points you are making? Please note that I pledged to not challenge you or criticize you, but only to ask for clarification when I need to better understand the case you are trying to make. I didn't pledge to agree with you, just to do my best to understand you and the case you make.

What it looks like you are saying is that there is no logic to the argument, but rather it's only something that can be grasped/understood by faith. Is that correct?

I don't understand what you mean by these words.

I'm not challenging your intent. And foremost, this isn't about me. There is NO need to praise me in any way for this. Please just lay out your case.

Thanks, I wasn't remembering Ken's name. And yes, that would have been a good day to suspend operation of LEAD.

Aka rationalizations. I'm confident Skyrider will remember when one 7th corpse guy got struck and killed on a highway while hitchhiking during the 9th corpse's first year in residence.

Okay, here's what I am going to do... and what I'm not intending to do. First, I'm not going to do or be or say or write anything that I don't believe in the depths of my,heart. This isn't about whether I'm going to let you put me in a box in your mind. You're going to do what you're going to do. I can't and have no need to control any aspect of that. Second, I'm not going to try to prove anything to you on/in this thread. Third, I fully intend to listen to, or read, your words, Waxit, non-judgmentally. I believe I've already explained my position on the subject of the sabbath. I'm not going to try to prove you wrong. Period. I just want to understand, preferably in words from your own heart, backed up if you need/want, by scripture. But primarily I want to understand where you're coming from. Now, I'm not making this proclamation to anyone but Waxit at this time. Lay it on me. I will, to the extent I need clarification of what you say from this point on, on this subject, ASK you for clarification. I will not criticize your perspective. You have already made it emphatically clear that you believe in the importance of the 7th Day Sabbath. I accept that as your position but want to understand how and why you believe that. Thanks, Rocky THIS is my aim: Proverbs 2:1-5 Not to demand it of anyone else, but for me to do this. My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding— 3 indeed, if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

1) That sounds like "beating around the bush." and 2) The best way for you to ensure it will be a productive discussion is for you to contribute productively -- cogently explain YOUR position. 3) We can't control what other people do (i.e. you either controlling me or deciding that you time isn't worth engaging with me because of _______ (you name it) 4) Now that would equate to you dismissing me, wouldn't it? Actually, if you want to help people clarify their understanding, the only thing YOU can do is make your argument as clear and simple as possible and then ask questions to figure out if what you tried to explain is clear to your readers.

What I'm hearing you say is that you're more concerned with describing what you think I'm thinking instead of explaining what you want me/us to understand about your perspective/understanding of the Bible regarding keeping of the Sabbath. Perhaps it would be constructive for you to try to answer the questions posed to you rather than erect walls in your mind to give yourself justification for not actually discussing the core issues you want me and other people to understand.

I could guess... but otherwise don't know anything about it.

Btw, in case you read or even just saw the thread I started in the "questioning faith" forum, I'm reading a book written by former fundamentalist Frank Schaeffer by that title, Why I am an Atheist who Believes in God. To me, it's a fascinating book that explores paradoxes of Christianity.

Waxit, what you label "agnostic" above... I'm not agnostic. But I'm also not fundamentalist. I view the Bible as a book of stories inspired by God, rather than a rule book that should be parsed and then used on which to base a legalistic subculture. Will you still refrain from dismissing me? "love people/understand where they are coming from" sounds like you're describing a willingness to genuinely listen and consider what those responding to you are saying. I hope that's true.

And I'm glad you did expose them.

You can ask. But I'd suggest that no matter how I answer, you might be inclined to put me in a box, in your mind, and dismiss me. I would ask YOU, what are you willing to bring to the table that would engender trust in your ability to engage in good faith. I didn't intend disrespect when addressing you as a dude... but I will cease using the term and try to be more respectful.

I loved that too!

And when he wanted a bit of novelty and variety in sowing his seed, he got that too. Btw, did anyone mention, in this thread, how ALL of the subjugation tactics/strategy (i.e. threatening to kick the entire corps out of the ministry... or actually ending the program for the ZERO corpse) was tied directly into the primal human social need for belonging? Our need to belong is what drives us to seek out stable, long-lasting relationships with other people. It also motivates us to participate in social activities such as clubs, sports teams, religious groups, and community organizations. In Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs, belongingness is part of one of his major needs that motivate human behavior. The hierarchy is usually portrayed as a pyramid, with more basic needs at the base and more complex needs near the peak. The need for love and belonging lie at the center of the pyramid as part of the social needs. While Maslow suggested that these needs were less important than the physiological and safety needs, he believed that the need for belonging helped people to experience companionship and acceptance through family, friends, and other relationships. ***** So, with Wierwille understanding (it was NO accident that he did any of that crap) the social issues, and the importance of these human needs, it's no wonder he used them to subjugate people to his whims. Was there anything noble about TWI?

Glenn O was, IIRC, 9th corps. I remember him. Hope he's still alive and doing well.

Indeed, it seems clear to me that the Jesus depicted in the Gospels was an "outside the box" thinker and doer. His disciples weren't sinister. Rather, they simply had not yet escaped "the box" that their culture had raised them in. It takes time to change cultures. To me, reflecting back on my 12 years in twi, the mindset was much more geared to limiting biblical understanding to the box Wierwille both grew up in and built around himself and his culture than, "oh... how interesting, let's ponder how that might be the case..." type thinking. Of course, that mindset had a solid anchor in his desire for glory and power. Btw, last night, I listened to a ted talk that was quite interesting along these lines.

Q: What have they revived? A: What was there to revive? Perhaps at some point some of them have come to the realization that there was nothing there to begin with. A cult of personality ceases to be viable when that particular personality exits stage left (or right, or whereever). Q: What have they restored? A: Great question. Maybe their own spiritual lives? But wouldn't that entail coming to the realization referenced in the previous question? Regardless, said restoration certainly wouldn't look like anything they hoped and expected when they set out on that journey three years ago. Q: Does their little weekly echo chamber have any relevance to anyone besides themselves? Anyone listening outside their little circle jerk? A: These rhetorical questions obviously answer themselves. Q: Surely, one can think deeper that spewing back the wierwille sound bytes of yesteryear, no? A: YES, one CAN think more deeply than simply spewing back wierwille sound bytes. But NOT if they keep doing the same things and expecting different outcomes. Oh, and DON'T call me Shirley! Q: When will they stop the merry-go-round and look around? Why have corps and clergy been exiting (escaping) from twi since 1976? Why did all of wierwille's corps letters lament, over and over, that corps were exiting twi and moving on in life? Were all of these corps and clergy "cop-outs?" Were they possessed with devil spirits like wierwille said? A: When (or IF)? YMMV. The why might be obvious to (some of) them by now. Were all of those escaping since 1976 "cop outs" and/or possessed by devil spirits? Most likely NOT. Three years is enough time for (some, but I wouldn't hazard a guess as to which ones) people in that group to start realizing they're definitely not going to be able to re-energize any bit of a splinter group to the "good ol' days" of their imagination/recollection. Because there's no group to re-energize, I'm confident that some (again, wouldn't guess which ones) WILL start re-evaluating their lives and spiritual journeys and expand their understanding and imagination to embrace ideas that were previously forbidden by the chains of cultism that previously kept them so severely limited.