Rocky

I'm not sure if this is directly relevant to the biblical topic at hand but I just read it and I find it intriguing. "They will interpret what you say in light of what they want to hear; and if your advice runs counter to their desires, they will find some way to dismiss your opinion, your so-called expertise. The more powerful the person, the more they are subject to this form of the confirmation bias. "When investigating confirmation bias in the world, take a look at theories that seem a little too good to be true. Statistics and studies are trotted out to prove them; these are not very difficult to find, once you are convinced of the rightness of your argument. On the internet, it is easy to find studies that support both sides of an argument. In general, you should never accept the validity of people’s ideas because they have supplied “evidence.” Instead, examine the evidence yourself in the cold light of day, with as much skepticism as you can muster. Your first impulse should always be to find the evidence that disconfirms your most cherished beliefs and those of others. That is true science." Greene, Robert. The Laws of Human Nature (p. 29). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. In terms of our discussion, "evidence" relates to Bible verses. Science would be "biblical research." We seem to know enough to recognize that legitimate understanding of biblical truth acknowledges that there will be apparent contradictions and obvious paradox throughout the accepted scriptures. We all seem to have inherent biases that guide our interpretation of any complex issue, not the least of which would include God's commandments and His Plan for Redemption... given that we generally accept the Bible to be the focus of where God makes his will known. One such bias, confirmation bias, is the first listed by Mr. Green in his book on Human Nature. That's where I found the quote above. That's one reason I tried to change my approach to what our friend Gabe was trying to sell us about the sabbath. WE (most of us who have posted on this discussion) seem(ed) to have a common understanding of the issue. We set that understanding to words in response (and resistance) to Gabe's view. I've been able to recognize that I am not always right, and recognize it for years. Not necessarily for the last 34 years, but for more than one or two years. So I figured I had nothing to lose by giving Gabe the opportunity to make his case without my resistance.

Indeed.

And you assume that PFAL is worth sharing? For how much?

Sigh...

That is certainly your right and privilege. I don't think anyone is suggesting you are at all required to do so. The point is that IF you want to succeed at your stated endeavor of effectively sharing your new (to your audience anyway) understanding of scripture with them, you'll want to figure out how to relate to your audience. Using stories, most powerfully your own (or some small part of your own) as it would relate to your audience and to the point you want to make, would give you much more powerful ability to do so. I don't personally need to know anything about you. But I can tell you that you have not succeeded in effectively getting your point across about the 7th Day Sabbath, at least to me. And hopefully I've made it clear as to why that's the case. I do not share this to insult you or criticize at all. I've tried to empathize with you. But I suppose I haven't succeeded either. Take care Gabe.

Well, I'm not the dogmatic one. As I understand it, adult humans don't change deeply held values based on logical arguments. For that, it takes significant emotional events. I suppose even in that regard, the degree of change and the deepness of the value held would be a matter of degrees. Nevertheless, in conveying a general concept, I'm not necessarily always as dead on accurate as possible. It's a good thing to be open to learning more and changing one's understanding when new knowledge becomes available. I'm glad it has worked for you WW. And that you shared that bit of your story here.

Who anointed you as the primary judge of all women and men on Earth today? I wish YOU would humble yourself and pray. Then you might see the way you have been trying to communicate your understanding of God's law isn't getting through to us. As it stands, the only thing you're telegraphing as to your intentions is that you have judged us and found us lacking. Will you be sitting at God's right hand on judgment day? Just sayin'. I wish you growth.

Did I miss where Waxit shared his story? It appears that in all his posts he writes as if he is GOD, rather than as himself telling his story of why he believes the sabbath is important. That certainly would explain why nobody here seems to have been convinced by anything Waxit preached at us. Most disappointing.

This TED talk about storytelling got posted to YouTube today. Storytelling is a very important part of life.

The Apostle Paul had a story. By the way that story developed, he (and many others) came to realize there was a better way than persecuting Gentiles and Christians. What's YOUR story? What happened in your life that opened your eyes to the wonder of how important the sabbath was? It may have been associated chronologically with you reading certain scriptures, but what was the something that happened to give you the "AH HA" moment when you "got it?" What was it in your journey/experience that represented the realization, like when the scales fell off of Paul's eyes?

How is that at all about Gabe? I'm not nitpicking. Stories can communicate powerfully and effectively when/where just telling people that you know they're doing it wrong doesn't get the message across that you wanted to get across. At some point, perhaps when/if you get frustrated enough with lack of response to your preaching, you might explore the idea of trying to express what really motivated you to make the decision in your life. It's a ministry of reconciliation, isn't it? How can you reconcile people to God if you are so frustrated with them that you can't tolerate their feedback to you?

Waxit, this is why I asked you on the other thread to tell us your story, how and why you came to believe what you do about sabbath. Arguing the logic of this or that doesn't convince people. Of anything. Anytime. Stories CAN, however, accomplish your purpose powerfully. If you've already shared your story about this conversion, I obviously missed it. But YOU matter. I want to understand YOU. Please tell us your story about coming to believe in the importance of keeping the sabbath. Thanks

I would still appreciate our friend Waxit/Gabe answering for himself, thanks.

Okay Gabe, we've gotten your argument from the scriptures. Now, if you would be so kind, please share with us how and why you came to believe in the importance of the 7th day Sabbath. What is YOUR story that brought you to this place and this belief. Thanks. Btw, I hold no animosity toward or for you, simply because I disagree with you. Steve

Well, I didn't exactly do much of an examination, just a glance. But you figured out one of the key problems with that revenue/expense statement. There are several items that are not well explained. Just because some items were aggregated and then summarized with certain account labels, doesn't tell the reader of the statement much of anything at all. In my mind, there would need to be an explanation for the group's chart of accounts AND a CPA audit statement qualifying whether generally accepted accounting procedures (GAAP)/standards were consistently employed/applied. IOW, that financial statement tells a little (very little) but may hide more than it reveals.

How do you know what's going on in their hearts? It seems that for what you do to be what you think it is, you'd have to start with an error-free version/translation of the Bible. How can you be sure you have that?

Cool song.

YIKES! Really? Okay, I can see that this might be an interesting place to engage a bunch of amateurs in what might become a lively discussion, but really? Hidden in the word amateur, a close (mis)spelling would be, amature or a-mature, which on its face would seem to indicate the opposite of scholarly maturity. I don't mean to imply that the discussion would immediately turn into a flame war. Rather, I wonder how serious you might be in describing this "august group of learned scholars." Just some thoughts. I will not pretend to be qualified to present anything approaching a scholarly inquiry into the subject. Rather, I wonder how meaningful such an inquiry could be given the likelihood that Jesus the Christ did not even exist in the form described in the Gospel books, synoptic or not. I'm all for humanity having powerful stories (myths). The Christian myth (story) has been dominant in Western Civilization for hundreds of years. But I still wonder if it is the bottom-line of all Godly truth. I recognize that my viewpoint as expressed is quite heretical.

My educational background is in accounting. There's a LOT that the 2019 Oikeos financial statement does NOT disclose. If you'd like me to expound, you are welcome to ask.

Right. No need to apologize (to me anyway). No I don't presume to know what God thinks. That includes what he thinks about all the people who don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday but do instead on Sunday. I understand that there's a lot of paradox in Christian scriptures and that it is presumptuous of us to judge based on our limited understanding of the complexities of those paradoxes.

Why are you apparently so intent on judging them? Do you know what's in their hearts?

To you both: Na na na... I know you are but what am I?

For what it's worth, I had no doubt about your attitude toward me at the start. Please allow me to clarify that I genuinely want(ed) to understand YOU. I'm confident enough with God, but as humans, we are flawed. I stopped to consider the situation and realized that the issue is NOT whether I am right or you are wrong. Rather, it's whether I give you room to be a person who has developed his own path spiritually and that my care and responsibility (to God and to you) is to give you that room (in my mind) and consider you a real live person who deserves respect whether I come to agree with you or not. Cheers.

Tell me, please, if I understand your point, you're saying I can't have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ unless I faithfully honor the 7th Day Sabbath?

I see what you did there. Very clever.