Rocky

That's a reasonable interpretation, but it IS a subjective/idiomatic expression so I don't see yours as necessarily contradictory to what Twinky and Flow7 said about it. Yes, history is recorded through the subjective lens of those writing the record. There's also the expression, "history is written by the winners." Knowing some historians and archivists, I'll disagree with you about what their passion might be. They want to get it right, generally speaking. But they still have the filter of their education and experience. That's a reasonable comparison even though the danger faced in the two scenarios was, for the most part not comparable. It strikes me that so many people have had the records of pandemic history, notably the 1918 Spanish Flu (might be labeled differently in records in other countries), and that it's clear that social distancing, wearing masks and frequent hand washing were established as effective practices to protect people during that pandemic. Yet, it's troubling that so many people in 2020 are oblivious and defiant... with far too many from their ranks ending up dead. In March, right after it became widely understood that we faced a deadly pandemic, I was able to read a book about the 1918 Spanish Flu. My point is that Moishe's experience was hardly unique, as was ours with TWI. It seems to be human nature.

Have you reached out directly to Lifted Up? I'm confident he has comforting words that will make sense to you. Take care and I hope your child and family are well.

The cult: Before setting out on his own, Barnard was first a member of the Way International, a nondenominational Christian sect known for encouraging followers to interpret the Bible on their own terms. With tens of thousands of followers in 35 countries, the group fell apart in the mid-1980s. Its founder and his successor were both accused of brainwashing and having sex with female followers. Barnard gathered former disillusioned members of the Way International and founded River Road Fellowship in the early 1990s, promising it would be different. As a minister, he had gained 150 followers by 1996, when the congregation purchased a wooded 85-acre campground in Finlayson, Minnesota. They called it Shepherd’s Camp, and Barnard convinced families to sell their homes and move there.

WOW! Talk about not knowing about that which you think you're talking.

Indeed, T-Bone Night is not pleasure reading. In the fall of 1972, my only semester at Northern Arizona University, I still recall a Humanities professor discussing Man's Inhumanity to Man. Today, I would change it to Humankind's inhumanity to Humans, or something like that. But that's beside the point. As a 17-year old, I had no clue at that time what the heck that was. Well, we had reading assignments but 48 years hence, I have a lot more insight than a freshman Humanities book could impart to a kid like I was then. I very much appreciate your comment. Obviously thoughtful and sobering. Thank you.

No apology necessary. I appreciate your review of the book. And your thoughtfulness about the experiences of different persons who may have been involved.

Nope, Flow7, you got the point exactly. Thank you.

If you're "not interested" in the topic, then I would welcome you to stop participating on the thread. Thank you.

Hi Flow7, Conceptually, I agree with your sentiment. However, like waysider explained it's already been hashed out over and over and over and over... and over again here. Practically speaking, there is no possibility that on this message board, we're going to successfully expand discussion and overall understanding of this very significant and solemn account of man's inhumanity to man. As Allan''s "contributions" have already demonstrated, it IS possible for one person in a small group to obscure and distract away from any constructive discussion of the subject. That's the gist of the why for Raf's declaration about Holocaust denial. As I mentioned earlier, if people want to explore and challenge the detail of Holocaust research the Wikipedia article on the subject has 461 notes and a bibliography of roughly 100 articles/books written by scholars of the era. That's where Allan can deny and challenge to his heart's content without distracting from the topic of this thread -- One person's experience in the middle of the hell that actually took place.

I suspect that wasn't the question WW was referring to. You obviously have an agenda, which is not to reflect on the historical record Elie Wiesel set forth of his experience. Conservative? We don't do politics here, no matter how hard you try to wedge it into a thread.

Yeah, I know that, WW. I suppose I should have realized it was a stupid question for me to ask.

This wikipedia article (on the Holocaust) has 461 footnotes/citations. From roughly 100 different researchers/scholars.

Wikipedia cites its sources. Allan, WTF is your motivation on this thread?

Unrelated to the topic of this thread. Just stop.

For example (btw, 11 hours ago, skyrider quoted the above from the R and R documents, rather than just saying it), gaining an understanding of that bible verse could hypothetically be attained by a "research team" continuing the Wierwille model of parsing each word in the original languages and/or studying Orientalisms... or people studying anthropology of Middle East cultures, and sociology/psychology. But the organization would have to have established flow of knowledge/understanding/wisdom that precludes the centralized "power over" (emotional abuse) that you get in twi and spinoffs therefrom.

Salient insight into the significance of TWI as a cult. However, in order to succeed in that effort to dig a little deeper to determine which aspects of the subculture are scripture based and which were levers for power and control, IMO, would take more than understanding scripture. It will also take an understanding of and insight into social sciences and humanities, which are generally gained when people commit to post-secondary education, either in universities or extensive reading in those fields. That takes us back to the fundamentals of cultism, namely Wierwille's demand that newly indoctrinated followers only read Wierwille's books.

That many Jews heeded warning and left Germany rather than be exterminated is in NO way connected to the number who were killed. So, yes, you're missing a lot besides what Waysider cited. Your inference is totally lacking any grounding in logic.

No worries, T-Bone. I just want us to keep this thread away from political controversy... especially over current events in the US. Historical perspective about the Holocaust is very much related to the book.

Yikes! Interesting manifesto to set before Edwards. Color me totally not optimistic that there will be any change in direction, doctrine or practice in twi anytime soon.

Or perhaps, viewing the same thing a bit differently, Wiesel recognizes something that happened and wonders how and why they could not have recognized the danger and taken action either family by family or collectively.

WW, please don't engage Allan on the subject. But yes, I appreciate your effort to bring us back to discussion of the book.

Which is SO from the discussion of the book which is the subject of this thread.

This isn't related to any discussion of the book.

This isn't necessary in order to appreciate the book by Elie Weisel as a historical document.

A simple statement would have sufficed rather than a full-scale dive into spiritual speculation. That's independent of whether anyone believes anything.