Rocky

WW, you nailed it. Penworks' book, Undertow provides great insight on her experience in twi. She has made it her mission to shed light on the cult experience. She could do that only because of her 17 years in twi. I wrote this (which Penworks included at the beginning of the book), “Undertow is a gift to young people and their families who want to understand the inner workings of fundamentalist cults. Charlene Edge’s experience parallels much of my own twelve years as a follower of Victor Paul Wierwille’s ministry. Undertow sheds light on the decisions, questions, and longings that she encountered, and ultimately worked her way through. In the words of Canadian author Matshona Dhliwayo, ‘Books are kinder teachers than experience.’ May Undertow be a kinder teacher to you than Charlene’s seventeen years in The Way International were to her.” —Steve Muratore I'm now reading Call Sign Chaos: Learning to Lead by former Secretary of Defense James Mattis. He makes the same point about learning from others' mistakes (that I did when I said that about Undertow). Mattis also poignantly demonstrates numerous examples of learning the hard way, through one's own experience. He doesn't call it regrets, but does powerfully make the case that learning from others' mistakes is quicker and often less painful.

This video is NOT about the political spectrum, in either direction. The value of this Megyn Kelly moderated discussion is expanding on the dynamics of workplace power that leads to sexual harassment/abuse. I believe it also illuminates points WordWolf made in the quote I cited in this comment. Though Kelly's interview doesn't suggest Ailes drugged anyone to commit rape or obtain sexual favors. But she and the others do dramatically show how power dynamics can play out... and much of that kind of thing DID happen in twi with vpw and lcm. A key difference between what Kelly and her colleagues experienced is that what happened in twi was self-justifying rationalizations twisting bible verses and claiming it was "God's will." It probably took a long time for a woman who submitted to figure out that it wasn't necessarily in harmony with what God really intended for her... I don't think God ever told women to be thankful that they got emotionally manipulated and sexually abused as a matter of course.

I understand. There are several first hand records on this forum. I suspect there are multiple topics about which adults in twi didn't tell you the whole story... one reason likely was that they didn't get the whole story from "leadership."

Hi Memeand... Yes, that's ONE way it happened for some of them. Not necessarily the only way. Glad you got locked into your mind not to even get started messing around with married men.

Ruminate on! Or gestate or gesticulate, whatever suits your fancy. I believe you're on the right track. Christakis' book is more about how societies form without necessarily any conscious intent. And yes, Maslov's hierarchy does seem to correlate closely with the Social Suite as articulated in Blueprint. But you nailed a couple of key sociological issues we lived through in our time in Wierwille's society/subculture. Consciously or not, VPW (and every other cult leader, because in this regard twi was far from unique) established a method for giving people a sense of belonging and then controlling their behavior (to a degree) based on threat to withdraw that sense of belonging.

Interesting thing that occurred to me this evening. It seems spookily Orwellian that (or how) twi changed names of holidays and words to songs. Each instance was clearly intended to mark/enhance the image of twi as better or more correct or more right than anyone else. In that regard, it just elevated the narcissistic nature of wierwille's subculture.

I understand how twi labeled them all as pagan. But twi's interpretation of culture wasn't necessarily the most rational much of the time.

Wierwille may have heard of B.F. Skinner, but a good bit of what's in Christakis' book hadn't been figured out before Vic died. Totally agree with you that twi was largely about group dynamics and groupthink. When one realizes what kind of commune activism had taken place prior to twi, it can make one wonder how we weren't able to see it all before we got involved. Alas, I'm now old enough for Medicare and it has taken me a lifetime of reading to learn about.

FWIW, Bill Gates (THAT Bill Gates) reviewed Blueprint on Goodreads.com He closed his review with this paragraph: "I didn’t expect to finish a book about behavior feeling more hopeful, but Christakis surprised me. It’s easy to feel down reading news headlines every day about how polarized we’re becoming. Blueprint is a refreshing reminder that, when people say we’re all in this together, it’s not just a platitude—it’s evolution."

This is NOT a book about politics. Rather, it's about sociology (among other disciplines) and provides insight on social structure of TWI, the WOW Ambassador program (and whatever succeeded it... Way Disciples?) and the Way Corpse. The book examines and synthesizes history of group dynamics similarly to how Sapiens (by Harari) synthesized human history. To me, the perspective examining groups all over the world and throughout history gives perspective on the experience we had in TWI far more than exclusively using the Scriptures to understand the subject(s). Blueprint: The Evolutionary Origins of Good Society is available for purchase on line and at bookstores. But it's also available in some public libraries. The author (Nicholas Christakis) offers insight on what he calls the Social Suite. These eight traits form what he calls the “social suite”: 1. Individual identity 2. Love for partners and children 3. Friendship 4. Social networks 5. Cooperation 6. Preference for your own group 7. mild hierarchy 8. Social learning and teaching We, who participated in TWI's regimented programs can see just by looking at this list some of the reasons why Wierwille's model society didn't work. But you can get much more insight by reading the book.

I agree with Raf. Atheism ≠ nihilism even though there may be some overlap. Why you should help others. (From the Daily Stoic) “Though pagan,” Wyatt-Brown writes, “the Stoics recognized the brotherhood of man. The greatest virtue was helping others for one’s own sake and peace of mind as well as theirs. Justice, goodness of heart, duty, courage, and fidelity to fellow creatures, great and lowly, were abstractions requiring no divine authority to sustain them; they were worth pursuing on their own.” [...] what does he mean by pagan or divine authority? The author is making an important point about Stoicism. Most religions tell us to be good because God said so. Or they tell us not to be bad because God will punish us. Stoicism is different. While not incompatible with religion, it makes a different case for virtue: A person who lives selfishly will not go to hell. They will live in hell. And both these points are related to the final and most important part: We are all connected to each other, and to help others is to help ourselves. We are obligated to serve and to be of service.

I don't understand how that relates to this discussion.

Hi Alan, All of that is completely understandable. The 1990s are a couple of decades behind us. How did you cope or adapt to that loneliness? Rocky

Thank goodness that's not what we're doing now, eh?

JALvis wasn't coordinating the 9th corpse its first year in res... the first and only year I was there. But we called it ho-ho relo that year too.

Indeed, the chains cults put their members in are invisible and largely enforced by way of the meaning/understanding of the language/terminology they use. Wonderful insight T-Bone. Thanks.

Bumping this topic up. Today I received an email from the Daily Stoic that asked the question, "What is gratitude?" On this day of American Thanksgiving, we’re supposed to make time for thanks, to actively think about that word that has become almost cliché in wellness circles: gratitude. But what is gratitude? Some people think of it as being thankful for all the good things you have in your life. Others see it as the act of acknowledging what people have done for you or what you appreciate about others. While the Stoics would have agreed that was all important, they practiced a slightly different form of gratitude. It was more inclusive and counterintuitive. It wasn’t just about being grateful for the good, but for all of life. “Convince yourself that everything is the gift of the gods,” was how Marcus Aurelius put it, “that things are good and always will be.” The first key word there is everything. The other key word is convince. Meaning: you have to tell yourself that it’s all good, even the so-called “bad stuff.” Is it possible to be grateful for that nine-hour travel delay that has you sleeping on a bench in the airport? Is it possible to be grateful for your father’s affair that tore your family apart, and which now means you’re celebrating two Thanksgivings in two houses because your parents can’t be in the same room together? Or that dark period you went through in college, when your grades fell to pieces and you thought about killing yourself? It’s not easy to be grateful for any of this, but it is possible. In the Discourses, Epictetus says, “It is easy to praise providence for anything that may happen if you have two qualities: a complete view of what has actually happened in each instance, and a sense of gratitude.” On the surface, much of what we’re upset about or wish hadn’t occurred is so objectionable that gratitude seems impossible. But if we can zoom out for that more complete view, understanding and appreciation can emerge. First off, you’re alive. That’s the silver lining of every s h i t t y situation and should not be forgotten. But second, everything that has happened and is happening is bringing you to where you are. It’s contributing to the person you have become. And that’s a good thing. This understanding, Epictetus said, helps you see the world in full color—in the color of gratitude. The Stoics believed that we should feel gratitude for all the people and events that form our lives. We shouldn’t just be thankful for the gifts we receive, and our relationships with friends and family. We should also be aware of and grateful for the setbacks and annoyances. For the difficult coworkers and the nagging in-laws, for the stress they put on us and whatever other difficulties we might be experiencing. Why? Because it’s all of those things, interconnected and dependent on each other, that made you who and what you are today. It is only by seeing the totality of things, good and bad, that you gain the understanding necessary to be truly grateful. It could be that terrible relationship that imploded spectacularly, but which led to you meeting the love of your life. It could even be the passing of a relative, something that caused you great sadness but which also spurred you to build stronger relationships with your loved ones. All of these things are sad, and they may not even lead to a happy ending—but they still define the course of your life, and it wouldn’t be you sitting there right now without them. As you gather around your family and friends this Thanksgiving or Christmas or any other celebration you might partake in, take the time to appreciate the moment and give thanks for all the obvious and bountiful gifts that moment presents. But also, be sure to be thankful for everything in your life, both the good and the bad. Because it’s in seeing all of those things, and understanding their impact, that you gain the ability to express true gratitude.

Me thinks your math is off by a few years. By my calculations, it was 56 years ago. And I remember where I was then too.

Cool. Not that it matters to anything, but a friend of mine (who has never heard of twi) just won a seat on the Boone Town Council and works as an adjunct professor at App State.

meh...

I've thought about that idea a good bit. I wish I could say that I knew from the start that it wasn't the only way God might want things done. But I didn't. I've also pondered the reasons and factors that led me to be open to Wierwille and his ministry. For me, having been born into a Catholic family was one. Then having Christian believers I knew (and others I hadn't known before) witness to me gave me food for thought... and certainly if I knew then what I know now... well, I can relate to your musing that you wouldn't have done it for as long. But I am thankful that I left when I did. Taking it a step further, my experience in twi is a large part of what made me who I am today. I will hit the magic Medicare age very soon (this month). I'm glad I won't be repeating some of the mistakes I made in my youth.

Where were you when Jonestown went down, 41 years ago? I was in Emporia, Kansas at what was then the Way College of Emporia. I was obviously vulnerable to cultic and fundamentalist influences as a young adult.

Over the course of four days in November 1978, 41 years ago now, a team of investigators (including California Congressman Leo Ryan and his aide Jackie Speier) traveled to Jonestown Guyana. Jackie Speier, now serves in Congress. Ms. Speier was shot five times and left for dead. Obviously, she survived. We who survived the Wierwille cult, even though some did experience real trauma, escaped with our lives. I was in residence in the 9th way corpse's first year, at Emporia, when this tragedy went down. Obviously, as a young adult at that time, I was vulnerable to cultic and fundamentalist influences.