Rocky

With study (and I believe you study stuff that will eventually lead you to some understanding), I believe it's available in a more literal sense to understand... but it's NOT reasoning that's behind it at all. It's other, very human, tendencies. Like tribalism and deep emotionalism. But very much is not any kind of logic or reasoning. I read people saying on social media that they can't understand the logic/reasoning behind certain political beliefs that are causing polarization and division all over the world these days. That's what spurred me to ask myself and in some of the experts' books that I've read similar questions. As a figure of speech however, I believe your question/statement is very TRUE and rational.

YESSSS!

It seems to me that Twinky was trying to get the point across that you were off the topic of this thread, which apparently, she started almost a decade ago.

An enlightening argument (for those with eyes to see and ears to hear) supporting your thesis.

I'm hoping your comment was tongue-in-cheek. I'm hoping we're well past taking the PFLAP advanced class as anything at all approaching a legitimate authority on truth.

At age 19, when I first was introduced to TWI, VPW, and PFLAP, I can say now with great confidence that I was grossly deficient in emotional and intellectual tools to immunize me from a fundamentalist Christian cult. Besides emotional immaturity and longing for belonging and for a more robust knowledge of spiritual realities, I had been raised in a culture steeped in Christian dogma and symbolism. If not for that cultural background, I could have been vulnerable to a wider range of cults.

There is plenty of literature on the subject now, including but not limited to: The Confidence Game Malignant Pied Pipers of our Time Undertow The Cult that Snapped Dark Persuasion Any book by Steven Hassan and several more. Key is that EVERY SINGLE HUMAN is subject to being conned. What constitutes and how to develop and foster critical thinking skill can be (and sometimes IS) taught in k-12 schools AND by/in families. Historical and cultural literacy is crucial background knowledge/understanding that can help immunize people young and old against (religious and political) cults.

I remember sitting with a 9th corpse gal at a meal one time, she told me of her aspirations to sleep with a man of god. At the time, I had no idea about the context. We will never know by direct disclosure by Vic, but we CAN draw reasonable inferences. IMO, it's not necessarily just your opinion.

Yes, something of that nature... shame and fear based emotional abuse to control followers... ... but Martindale was using the expression well before 1995. I left in 1986 and it was already firmly entrenched in the twi lexicon by that time.

Mike, Mike, Mike... Has anyone here at GSC considered your schtick to be "good sense or logic?" That ship sailed years ago. I don't claim to know or be able to discern what you "are thinking." I only know what you've written on GSC. IF you were to be "on the spectrum," and IF we understood your words in such context, it would be much easier to accept, or at least understand, your logic. Further, expressing, or responding with defensiveness doesn't necessarily suggest to your readers any strength resides in your arguments. OTOH, vulnerability DOES communicate strength and promotes connection/acceptance.

This is true. And it shines a very bright spotlight on a key aspect of Wierwille's character (actually, lack thereof): His life and "ministry" was entirely a shame-based fraud from the get go. Understanding shame-based identity What are shame based cultures? In cultural anthropology, a shame culture, also called honour-shame culture or shame society, is the concept that, in a given society, the primary device for gaining control over children and maintaining social order is the inculcation of shame and the complementary threat of ostracism. So, how did Wierwille gain control over his followers (to the extent he may have had control)? Can you say "mark and avoid?" The entire basis of the cult was the sense of belonging. But I digress. This all figures into the concept of Dark Persuasion, which accounts for the growth of twi in the 1970s. Of course, after Wierwille's demise, the mystique began to fade. But with the advent of the interwebs, and Waydale, it was increasingly difficult for twi to maintain it's allure in the US and Europe. Is it any wonder why whatever "growth" twi has had since Martindale was deposed from the throne has been in places where the reach of the GSC is attenuated because of limited internet reach?

It's nothing to be ashamed of.

Good luck.

Is that to what you attribute apparent lack of interest here in your book?

It's not an attack. Being on the spectrum (neuro-atypical) is plenty common enough and if you are and if we understand it to be the case, the discussion(s) with you and frustration about your obfuscation can more readily be ameliorated. As to "ones WE are supposing to minister to," that's not how I or (I suspect) most others characterize our interaction with other Greasespotters. My life has meaning and mission, but not necessarily to "Teach one person the Word, if [we] are still able." What gives meaning to a life is up to each life. That said, I would appreciate it and respect you plenty if you could find the personal strength to let yourself be vulnerable on that matter. Willingness to be vulnerable is an indicator of strength, not weakness.

For the record, Mike, are you on the spectrum? I appreciate Twinky introducing the topic, but figured it would be helpful to hear it from you. Thanks.

HNY Twinky, from another dimension... sort of. I'm in 2021, and as I understand it, you're in 2022!.

Now THAT makes sense. The light comes on regarding our good friend Mike.

A book that has been the subject of discussion here on GSC. I love the book. It also reframes discussion about whether salvation can be lost.

Just today, I came into possession (well, borrowed) from my local public library, Viktor Frankl's book, Yes to Life: In Spite of Everything. I would hope that everyone who had been victimized to any degree, whether born into it or otherwise having been hoodwinked by TWI, would be inspired by the Jessa Dillow Crisp's story (linked in the OP in this thread). Frankl, in case anyone needs to be reminded, survived three years in Nazi concentration camps and wrote Man's Search for Meaning shortly after those in the camps were liberated.

My bottom-line on this subject (for now) is that if we think being sucked into TWI is the end of a journey of Dark Persuasion/brainwashing, we need to rethink it. My review of Dark Persuasion (as posted on Goodreads.com):

We can, of course, be deceived in many ways. We can be deceived by believing what is not true, but we certainly are also deceived by not believing what IS true. -- Søren Kierkegaard in the epigraph to chapter twelve, The Beleaguered Persistence of Brainwashing, Dark Persuasion. Hopefully nobody these days is unaware of events illustrating this concept.

PatAnswer's answer was/is brilliant! Btw, for those who read fiction (which is a great way to learn about life), This short story by Dean Koontz has key parallels to our experience in twi and, I'm confident, in plenty of other cults.

From Chapter Eight, Flash Conversion of Hostages, Stockholm Syndrome and Its Variants It was the hostages' fault. They did everything I told them to do.... Why didn't any of them attack me? ... There was nothing to do but get to know each other. --Jan-Erik Olsson From roughly 1915 to 1965, governments and universities tried to develop tools for brainwashing. They weren't exactly successful. Torture did not persuade people to adopt political beliefs, nor did it elicit reliable information. Any number of drugs could sedate, stimulate, or confuse people, but they were not effective in interrogations or persuasion. [However] Group pressures, sensory isolation, and sleep deprivation were promising tools for persuading people, but these required time and finesse. In the 1970s and 1980s two unlikely players emerged to demonstrate new techniques in dark persuasion--kidnappers and clerics. While some kidnappers were able to radically change their hostages' behavior, usually this did not reflect the kidnappers' deliberate intention. Rather, the changes were a by-product of what one hostage called "the constant and palpable threat of death." (p. 125) (Jump ahead to p.134) ...when framed from the perspective of life stress and coping, the syndrome is readily understandable, viewed less as a mark of psychopathology and more as an instance of coping under extraordinary stress. Getting close to the abductor is actually lifesaving. Psychiatrist Frank Ochberg ... consultant to the FBI, called Stockholm syndrome an "unholy alliance between terrorist and captive, involving fear, distrust, or anger toward authorities on the outside." [YOU, my people, are THE called of God (unspoken at first), to obey ME, VPW and my lieutenants]. The captive focuses attention on the captors' occasional kindnesses rather than their brutality. [If you LEAVE the household, God won't even spit in your direction... btw, how freakin' paranoid was Wierwille, anyway] This can be lifesaving because a positive bond affects both captive and captor. ... Captives want to survive but are totally dependent upon their captors [see Pavlov's hierarchy of needs]. The power differential between the two is enormous, and to survive, captives must do all in their power to turn aside the lethal anger of their captors. It may be uncommon for FBI agents to speak about child development and regression but Agent Thomas Strentz described the situation masterfully: "The five-year-old is able to feed himself, speak for himself, and has locomotion. The hostage is more like an infant who must cry for food, cannot speak, and may be bound.... The hostage is in a state of extreme dependence and fright. He is terrified of the outside world. [...] Ochberg observed that "brainwashing is deliberate, but Stockholm just happens. It's a shrewd observation. ----- The text in the book has several end notes citing where Dimsdale got the quotes and the insight. I maintain that these passages more than coincidentally point to the cult behavior in the way corpse and paid staff of twi. Obedience is implicitly demanded with severe shame and threats to one's sense of belonging and hence, need for survival. Why do they have armed security? Why do they immediately expel people for what the cult perceives as threats to ITS survival? How does such expulsion impact those who still belong? Does TWI get away with these practices because they craftily and subtly impose these emotional and financial abuses and the constant and palpable threats of harm? And to any leaders of twi spinoff groups, I'd recommend get an education and get a real job. Do GOOD in society rather than the illusory benefit you might provide to your followers. Anyway, Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays.