Mark Sanguinetti

Hi Mike: Well that is encouraging. So you realize that not all of what Victor Wierwille wrote and spoke was necessarily inspired or given by the holy spirit. You know you could have come to that conclusion without having to consult the PFAL book. Then I guess that means that we can't put Victor's writings with the same esteem as Paul's writings in the Church epistles. Mike, in past years I studied Wierwille's written works very vigorously. You should see my bible. There are a few sections of scripture in my old bible that are filled with notes like you probably have never seen before. In studying and writing these notes I found that much of the technical biblical work of VP Wierwille actually came from E.W. Bullinger. Today, however, I try to be more well rounded in my outside study sources. I try to learn from a number of teachers rather than just a few. I think that this is biblically safer and brings me a more well rounded biblical knowledge. However, there is something to be said for Victor Wierwille's suggestion from the PFAL class that we get rid of our outside biblical reading material at times and just go to the scriptures and let them speak for themselves. Of course, if we were to really follow this we would have to include Victor Wierwille's works in this as well. Maybe you should literally follow what VPW said and put away your PFAL books for a while and just study the bible. You know he also said this in the class regarding commentaries and VPW's material would have to be considered a form of commentary as well. You know I have done some study already in dissecting VPW's material as to what is truth and what is error. However, over the last number of years I have mainly done my own independent studies. You see I am somewhat of a Christian writer also and I have endeavered to do some godly writing that is inspired by the holy spirit as well. However, if you want the opinion of someone that has spent a lot of time working the PFAL material to determine some of what is true and not true you should get Rafael's opinion. Also a Christian man by the name of Barrax (I think that is how his name is spelled) has also done a great deal of study of the PFAL class material.

O.K. Mike. I think we all understand. You love the teachings of Victor Wierwille. However, are there any teachings of his that you find unscriptural?

I think you are right Sudo. First and foremost Victor Wierwille was a salesman. And thanks for the music. You know I still have on my computer desk top the music from the USC band that you provided.

1 Cor 1:11-13 11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? NIV 1 Cor 3:4-9 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe-as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. NIV It is clear from Mike's posts that he is saying we should primarily follow Victor Wierwille, specifically his teachings. The main thing I dislike about TWI doctrine is their sectarian gospel. When we follow men, or dead men as the case may be, or a particular denomination above the ministry of Jesus Christ we are walking in strife and spiritual blindness. In spite of Wierwillian reasoning Jesus Christ really does have a ministry today. He really does direct the church. Jesus does this through the holy spirit which he gave. The point I am making is that why would we ever want to exalt anyone's ministry above that of Jesus Christ's. The way that I read Mike's written work here this is primarily what he is doing in exalting the ministry of Victor Wierwille.

Well that is O.K. Mike. Craig Martindale did not mention Jesus Christ in his Athletes of the Spirit production either. After all who needs Jesus when you are Rainbow man?

You know I like you guys, but I disagree with your last point. I have not read all of Mike's posts. No offense Mike, but they are very long and there is just not enough time in the day. However, Mike to me is clearly talking about the importance of Christian doctrine and he is singing the praises of Victor Wierwille. He is not talking about sporting events or a new business venture here. What is the point in Christian doctrine if Jesus Christ is not exalted? Do we pray in the name of Jesus or not? When one of us has a problem whose name do we invoke for help?

Hi Mike: Rafael, myself and others have made good points here that you can not possibly all address. You have purposely and deliberately placed blinders over your eyes regarding your devotion to Victor Wierwille. Many of us have checked Wierwille's teachings and have founded them to have a number of errors. Even more of us have seen the grave practical errors in his personal life and realize that this was influential in the corruption of the Christian doctrine that he taught. In contrast you plainly want us to believe that he wrote and spoke Christian doctrine perfectly. Honestly, your devotion is so extreme, with the vast evidence to the contrary, that you (Mike) make Victor Wierwille look like a crack pot. I really don't want to see that happen, but if you feel you must, post on. About a week ago I watched on educational TV a historical documentary on the Muslum religion. In the segment that I watched many of the historians that they interviewed or the historic people that they quoted from would constantly quote Mohammed as being God's prophet. In fact, they could scarcely invoke the name of God, who they refered to as Allah, without tacking on and invoking Mohammed as his prophet. Your devotion to Wierwille reminds me of them Mike. And to think you have a saviour that died for you and you rarely even mention his name. [This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on December 29, 2002 at 21:45.]

Hey Sirguessalot: You should have heard the out loud laugh you just got out of me. Please pass the popcorn. Mike: One request please. If you care to comment further on this subject would you please condense and shorten your posts a bit. I think you can say the same thing with a lot less words. I read your first couple of posts in their entirety, but if you have any more long ones I may not have time to read them all. I am a busy guy. Thanks

Hi Mike: Thanks for posting your material. I have never seen such a text book example of preaching one thing, yet actually doing the complete opposite of that which is taught. I never read or heard Victor Wierwille's last teaching until now. However, I am very familiar with some of the scriptures that were quoted. It was pretty obvious even back then that true Christian service was lacking in TWI. You only needed to see the people parading around with their name tags, Way Corps, College Division, Reverend ,etc, at TWI functions to see that the Way Ministry had lost sight of what it is to not be a respector of persons. Instead religious title and prestige was held in high esteem with TWI. What is really amazing about Victor’s last teaching specifically is the scriptures quoted Mark 10:35-45. The companion scriptures are Matthew 20:20-28 and Luke 22:20-30. Certainly these are wonderful scriptures describing and teaching about true service. However, is this what the Way denomination actually applied in their ministry? Looking at the scriptures beginning in verse 37 we can clearly see the potential for a power struggle between the 12 disciples, specifically from James and John the sons of Zebedee. This clearly angered the other 10 in verse 40 and Jesus put out the flames of this potential for religious in fighting by saying the following in Mark 10:42-45. 42"You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." NIV Jesus clearly says that they were not to have a system of lords over God’s heritage like the Gentiles with one class above another and a hierarchy of religious power. In contrast, they were to serve one another in love. Nice words for Victor to quote, but did he actually do anything to stop the up coming power struggle within his own denomination which clearly was on the horizon? Actually, Victor Wierwille instead clearly faned the flames of this strife. He did this by first and foremost setting up a religious hierarchy of lords over God’s heritage just like Jesus warned against and said not to do. He set up a virtual smorgasborg of minions one over another. He had twig coordinators over leaves. Then he had branch leaders over twig coordinators. In some areas he had area and territory leaders over the branch leaders. Then he had limb leaders over the branch, area and territory leaders. Then he had region leaders over the limb leaders. Finally he had a trunk leader over the region and limb leaders with all the above leaders subordinate to him and his board of trustees. As time passed this religous hierarchy got more controlling with every passing year. Finally, when it was time to pass on the figurative mantle of TWI leadership he passed it on to someone that used his religious authority to persecute God’s people and squelch the spirit of God and the individual ministries of others. Clearly, Victor Wierwille may have talked a good game, but by his actions he figuratively threw charcoal and poured lighter fluid on the flames of discord, indignation, strife and power hoarding within his own denomination. He more than any man is responsible for the sorry state that his denomination is in now.

Was it Christian Family and Sex? It is well know that Victor was not a good example of purity in a marriage relationship.

Romans 12:14-21 14 Ask God to bless those who persecute you--yes, ask him to bless, not to curse. 15 Be happy with those who are happy, weep with those who weep. 16 Have the same concern for everyone. Do not be proud, but accept humble duties. Do not think of yourselves as wise. 17 If someone has done you wrong, do not repay him with a wrong. Try to do what everyone considers to be good. 18 Do everything possible on your part to live in peace with everybody. 19 Never take revenge, my friends, but instead let God's anger do it. For the scripture says, "I will take revenge, I will pay back, says the Lord." 20 Instead, as the scripture says: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for by doing this you will make him burn with shame." 21 Do not let evil defeat you; instead, conquer evil with good. TEV God bless you WayGB. I hope you get healed. May you realize what true service is. It is not self promotion. It is not vaunting yourselves above your brothers and sisters in Christ. My prayer in the name of Jesus Christ is that you will learn what real service to God's people is this coming year.

Sounds like the TWI leadership that I knew. The top leaders screw as many women as possible, while preaching abstinance to the rank and file Joe and Mary Believer. I just love hypocrisy. I hope you can be both best friends and lovers with your next woman. Monogamos relationships are good. The next time you have one you will know the sex is between you and her and to keep third parties and their opinions out of it. You learned a valuable lesson. Never listen to a religious hierarchy. Instead try to grow and be strong in your relationship with your woman and with God.

I put my name and E-mail address on their site a couple of years ago. It was no big deal. I did not get any weird responses from anyone. Actually, only a few people contacted me from it.

Happy Birthday my friend. I hope you are doing well.

Hi Valerie: Sorry if I missed your birthday, but happy birthday anyway. Regards, Mark

Hope you had a great Birthday LikeAEagle. Ridem Cowgirl. Yippee and Away.

Oh and one more thing and this is very important. Paw is single. So any of you ladies that are now single still have a shot. Good luck and happy dining.

Hi Radar: It sounds like I need to try out the Spaghetti Factory the next time I am in Oakland and near Alameda. Where is it? Oh and sorry to scare you like that.

Chinson, at the restaurant he ordered steak, but I think you should also serve him vegetables. After all even Paul Bunyon needs a balanced diet. [This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on November 06, 2002 at 21:16.]

Hi Radar: Sorry for not getting back to you sooner about the restaurant that Pawtucket and I went to. After writing the post and clicking Post Now, the Internet just kind of ate up my post. Must of been all that bouncing around between servers. Anyway Francesco's is on the corner of Hagenberger and Pardee west of the Oakland Coliseum. Radar, you must be a little homesick for your old stomping ground. Chinson, I should have recognized Tigger, Winnie the Pooh's buddy. An old girl friend of mine loves the Pooh bear.

For Shame on me Chinson. I did spell furry wrong. Leave it to a teacher to correct me. Can I get you to proof read some of my writings in the future? Some promotional agent I am, uh? Paw is probably going to fire me now. So what is that furry little creature jumping around on your posts anyway? Do you want me to guess? Hi Radar. How is everything going?

Chinson, that is a really cute leaping fury creature with a tail. What is that anyway?

Well, I got together with the mysterious Grease Spot celebrity Pawtucket last night in Oakland, CA. We ate at an Italian restaurant and gossiped about Grease Spot Cafe. He is a great guy and we had a good time. How would I describe the mysterious Pawtucket you ask? Well, he is sort of a cross between Paul Bunyon, Fabio, Bill Gates and Mother Teresa. Gee, I sure hope that helps. Truthfully, if I was you out in the heart land of America and had the opportunity to get together with our Father in cyber space (I say that very tongue and cheek) I would not pass this up. And yes, Paw is considering me now as his across the country itinerary promotional agent. [This message was edited by Mark Sanguinetti on November 05, 2002 at 12:30.]

Had to think about that one for a minute, but HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa. Got a real chuckle. Thanks Kathy.