My3Cents

I was once at the annual conference for the National Wellness [something or other]. It's a conference every year with hundreds of speakers and thousands of participants all having something to do with wellness - doctors, nurses, social workers and many in the non-western tradition too. At night they have entertainment - concerts etc. One night was a guy who apparently is there all the time (I think he's on the board or something) and entertains as a magician. He was pretty good. But part of his act is to pretend to be psychic and do exactly what you're talking about as he walks around and interacts with audience members. If you don't know his tricks (and I only know a couple) it's pretty convincing. But he's telling the audience all the time that he's not reading anyone's mind. He's just using tricks - though he doesn't tell what the tricks are. Then he told the story that almost every time he performs this people come up to him after and want advice about their biggest decisions. "Should I marry this person? quit my job? have kids?" and he reiterates in unbelief - Hey, I'm just a night club act!!! Yes, it amazing how many people are so desparate. But look at all of us.

They were right. You ARE a cab!

That's like saying because something has been around for a while it must be good. [and counting 20-60 years as a while] Baloney. There are many human beliefs and practices that have been around for thousands of years that are terrible.

Pat, I've found I'm much happier asking "Is this idea useful?" than asking "Is it on the word? or is it right?" It kind of assumes an innate goodness in ourselves that something obviously wrong wouldn't work, or wouldn't be useful. For example, even if I could get away with a lie or cheating on my wife, or stealing something, it wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't find it useful because of the inner consequences. Funny that obviously the way didn't want people to assume they had that innate goodness, when in fact the top leadership didn't seem to have it at all. I just read a review of "The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout. She's a psychologist and estimates that fully one person in 25 don't have the ability to feel regret when they abuse people. Google it.

Ahhh Horse. That's because the Devil has bribed you with good fortune. You see, the way wants to have it both ways. If you stand with them and do well, it's because of god's blessing. If you stand with them and don't do well it's because the devil is trying so hard to harass you. (Don't ask if that means the devil is more powerful than god - they'll tell you it's your fault) If you don't stand with them just the opposite is happening. There's no way you'll get them to change their beliefs based on logic or facts. The word is much more important than either of those.

Before you get too excited about Kyosaki you should check out someone who's fact-checked his story John Reed There are some attitudes that he can teach you that are helpful. There are other things he says that are misleading or just plain wrong. And a lot of what he says he did is not easily replicatable except for special circumstances that don't happen very often. I speak as someone who, like Galen, has made quite a bit of money as a landlord. I have to say he won't be paying for college with tax-free dollars. He will get a loan (secured by his houses) to come up with the cash to pay for college. Then he will pay back the loan over time with profit from his rent properties. He will pay taxes on those profits. Yes the taxes on those profits will be lessened by the depreciation laws, but he'll use up a lot of that depreciation shortly after the kids graduate and I doubt the loan will be paid off by then. Having said all that, I must agree that this is a great idea - IF you have a few things going for you. One is that the area you buy in stays economically healthy for 20 years (more if you have more than one kid.) Pick any 20 year period and you'll see that many areas of the country were economically healthy over that time frame. But many were not. And it is not always possible to tell in advance. Another thing you must have going for you is that the cost of money (interest rate) relative to the rental market in your area must be suitable. The first place I bought was a duplex. We lived in one side and rented out the other. For quite a number of years, the rent DID NOT cover even half the mortage payment (not to mention repairs, advertising etc). And a few years after we bought the place, it was worth 40,000 less than we paid for it. A drop of about 25%. 20 years later when I finally sold it, it had gone up quite a bit. And over that time, the interest rates had come down and the rents had gone up. So I was able to make a decent cash flow for quite a while. I haven't bothered to figure out if I'd have done better buying a single family and putting the rest of the money in a bank, or the stock market but I doubt it. The third thing you must understand is that inveting in real estate is somewhere in the middle between investing in the stock market (all you do is decide what+when to buy and when to sell) and having a job (where you work 40 hrs a week). It takes a lot more work than just an investment. And sometimes you don't get to decide when the work needs to be done. And sometimes you have to have the money to replace a furnace or something on the spot, and you don't get to choose. And sometimes really weird stuff happens - like the time the cops woke me up at 11:30 PM because they were staking out my tenant because he had stabbed his girlfriend (she's fine now) and we're not talking trailer trash - they lived in a neighborhood where the average home is worth 300K or more. But if you are aware of this, are able to meet the challenges, and have the luck (or good fortune) to enjoy a stable economy for 20 years and a decent interest/rent ratio it is possible to do well financially.

Takes one to know one, cutie pie!

I got out by tw2 but it sounds a lot like what they were putting full time staff through in the 1980's. Any folks who started working on staff with money in the bank, soon had to spend it on stuff that way-world didn't pay for. So that money wasn't invested to produce growth and security in the future. It was spent for what a decent salary would have covered in the future.

In my experience it was some psychological or emotional need. The best thing you can do for your kids is FIRST do your own "inner work" to see what the specifics were in your case. Then do what you can to raise emotionally healthy kids. When people are emotionally healthy, even if they have desire to learn spiritual things, they will be put off by scammers and such. It's not just a matter of education - that's all on a conscious and logical level. As important as it is, you can't fight emotion with logic.

I was in The Way East - under Jim's cohort, Steve Heefner, so I don't know all the details but I know some. Here's my story. Jim & Steve and others were in some jesus freak movement on the west coast. Vpw read about them in Christianity Today magazine and went to visit. He invited them to come to way hq for camps, classes, free love - whatever. They accepted and took vpw's teachings and classes back to Calif and started getting lots of people involved. Somehow, a sister of a buddy of mine got involved through them and came back to Rye, NY where she started telling her friends about it. Among them were Chris Geer, and others who've been mentioned here. As things started to heat up, there were a few pockets of way-dom in the US. The one led by Doop in CA, John Lynn was leading one in Indiana, there was one in Carolina (started I think by John Sommerville - vpw's son-in-law) Bob Moynihan was involved in that one but don't know what role he had in leadership. And of course some old fellowships around hq in Ohio. At some point Steve Heefner came to NY to lead the Way East (don't know if he was asked or if he volunteered). I think all these organizations were separate legal corporations from the way hq. I'm sure the way east and way west were. The people were obviously working toward the same end, but I don't know the legal relationship with Ohio, though there must have been some, because vpw was obviously the top dog. At some point he thought these guys were getting too uppity and he came out to Calif and fired Jim Doop in a big public meeting. Don't know the details - I just heard it through Heefner. His take on it was vpw didn't like that they were using the money locally, and in some personally beneficial ways (like buying new cadilacs) I guess vpw wanted to be the only one doing that. Shortly after that vpw came to NY to teach a live advanced class - it was in spring of 1972. At that point, he fired Heefner (also in a public meeting) and brought Bob Monynihan up from carolina to run NY. Geer was the underling to Heefner, then vpw through the transition and then to Moynihan till he (Geer) was moved to Massachusets. Heefner left town after that and I never did hear much about him. Doop left the way as well for a while, then came back (to much fan fare) and ended up in the 5th way corps - same as I was. Hi Jim if you're reading this. Hope that sheds a little light on the subject.

Dell is fine. I've also had good luck with HPs. I do not like Compaq - there is something quirky about them in my experience. But I'd compare price - especially with your discount. For "normal" use (no high end games, no CAD or heavy database use) you don't need top of the line fastest processor. More hard drive space than you think if you'll be collecting or editing videos. Usually the best bang for the buck is to get more memory up to 512 or 1 gig. Also if it's a laptop/notebook then get the 3 year warranty. Everyone I've ever had needed to be sent back w/in 3 years for some kind of physicall fix. Keep your old computer and use it to back up your data. Best way to back up is to another computer over the network.

Steve, When I got out - after the start of the show down between Geer and LCM in the mid-80's a lot of my peers were wondering who to stand with. The way we phrased the question was along the lines of "Who has the closest stand to the -original- word of God? Because I want to stand for the word." I took it one step further and asked myself "How did I know there even was an original word of god? and why did I think the bible had anything to do with it?" And my answer was that my only reason to belief that was that some preacher from Ohio had told me so in PFAL and that I had bought into it and adjusted my life accordingly. So at that juncture I decided to look for other, external corroboration that there might be such a thing. I found I was more content not finding it and that life worked better for me with questions and mysteries about some of the greater truths than it did with the "answers" I was trying convince myself of. So in the dilema of who to follow I opted for "None of the above." There's a funny quote that religion takes unanswerable questions and turns them into unquestionable answers. I'm happier with the former. Steve, Since you agree with me, you are obviously correct :D--> :D--> :D--> Perhaps we should start a church together - or at least a mutual admiration society.

One other thought comes to mind after reading HCW's thread. The way is an abusive community. As it has gotten worse over the years, the healthier people have left. It's not too far out to guess that anyone who is still attracted to what the way has to offer has a rather hefty dose of their own mental and/or emotional trauma that causes them to be attracted to this place. So what that means for your friend is twofold. One she needs to "do her own work" psychologically and move toward making her recovery. Secondly, she should talk with a professional who can help her understand her husband's pathology. It's not a one-size-fits all thing and different types of people react in different ways. The more she understands about his type, the better prepared she'll be to deal with it.

Belle, Your friend needs to take an honest look at whether she actually has a marriage to try and save. I don't mean what the way calls a marriage, I mean what she would want in a marriage when she gets out. It may be she's lost it already so all she has is a source of funds for raising her kids. No point in continuing to suffer for something that's already lost. Grieve and move on. I think the analogy between her situation and that of John & Hope is not always helpful. I knew them in the corps, but haven't spoken to them since except here on the forum. But it seems obvious from their lifestyle that even while Hope was "waiting" for John to want to leave, he was not buying into the way bull$hit 100%. I have no idea what their emotional life, sex life, parenting life etc was like. But I have to believe there were signs there that gave Hope the hope she needed to wait. Or that she could endure the wait because of the positive things they did have. I would encourage your friend to take these things into account when she decides how long she's going to wait before doing what she needs to do. If hubby's not coming along, the longer she waits the worse it will be for her emotionally, for her employability, and for the kids.

Not only went too far but went in the complete wrong direction. When raising kids, the measure of success should not be obedience. But I guess that's what they wanted in the adults so they taught that it was the model for our relationship with god.

Steve, I'm not one to say there was milk in PFAL. But I do think there was poison there. However I think it was bound up in the idea that the bible is the word and/or will of God, or even that there is such a thing at all. If you reject that notion (which never occured to me till I took PFAL and now I see as perhaps the most destructive idea humankind has come up with) then the whole of the pfal collapses.

If you mean do I wonder if in 5 years I'll look back on what I believe now and see that I've changed some of those beliefs? Then my answer is I hope so. I don't ever want to stop changing, and growing, and learning. Though, that belief might changes as well {grin} However if you mean will I see my old way beliefs in the positive light that I now reject? Then I have to say my answer is no. The reason is my old way beliefs were answers to a set of questions I no longer ask in the same way. It's not that I reject the answers (and may come around to rejecting my rejection) it's that I reject the questions. Or rather, I reject the notions that there are answers in ways that I used to expect them. I'm happier now with a lot more questions than I ever was with the anwers. I can tell that when I see discussions on this board about "was this old teaching right or wrong?" or "how much of that stuff was good and how much was evil?" My reaction to those discussion is usually, along the lines of "Who cares?" or "Man, this does not relate to me at all"

You should read "The Good Divorce" by I. Forget also. She found that most previous studies on the effect of divorce on children were not done on a purely random sample so it skewed the useability of the results. Her study started with a random sample and she found that a surprising number of divorces were "good" where the parents still got along afterward. And that the effect on the kids had mostly to do with how the parents handled their relationship rather than the mere fact of a divorce. She also uncovered a number of very special ways that families dealt with the breakup and reformation into their new lives. It was very inspiring. I'm not saying that divorce is always a good thing for the kids but I know that a lousy marriage is usually a pretty bad thing as well. Just an anectdote, a few months after my wife got divorced (not from me)her kid's teachers asked her what had happened to them. They saw the kids blossoming and doing much better than they had before. Go figure. And when I said divorce should be easier - I don't mean just legally. I mean it should be more accepted and have less of a stigma on the parents, and the kids. It doesn't mean if you're marriage isn't working out that you have the right to be an a$$hole about it - nor that you can abuse your financial obligations or neglect your partental obligations. Just that your marriage didn't work out. Be adult about it (of course if both people were a lot more marriages would work out.

A growing organization needs a front man (or woman) but the way isn't growing and it has nothing to do with Rosie or even Craig. Very few want to be part of an organization that's so controlling. VPW wasn't nearly as controling - in spite of the many other autrocities he committed he was not one to throw people out on a regular basis. There were a few leaders he couldn't control and he bumped them, but never the lower leaders or the rank and file. He'd be happy to have them come along and contribute their money no matter how often their life didn't line up with his teachings. Even in the way corps - people got divorced when they shouldn't have, had kids when they shouldn't have, didn't pay their bills, smoked and all kinds of other things they had agreed not to do and were still allowed to graduate and often given leadership positions. And he never that I know of allowed others to kick people out. If they really wanted to grow they should just tone down the control a bit and they've find many who want to be shown a standard that's impossible to live by. Just look at the growth in other fundamentalist groups.

I don't think vows have anything to do with a good marriage or a long one. If anything I think they detract. If you don't live your love and committment because of who you are and who your spouse is today, it really doesn't matter what you vowed 10 years (or 10 days) ago. But clinging to the old vows can actually make you blind to who you or your spouse has become. I think the way to strengthen marriage is to make divorce easier, and less painful especially to children. That way marriages that are no longer viable except on paper wouldn't even be viable on paper. So what? They aren't true marriages anyway. It's like having a car that only runs down hill. If you move to Kansas where there are no hills, you'll be forced to deal with the fact that the car just doesn't run.

I got out in the mid '80s but I don't remember those kind of rules about communion. Hell, I did it one time with my twig in a Chinese restaurant!

In fact, it's impossible to ignore that language is imprecise - regardless of whether it's greek, aramaic, King James, or modern English. And since words are what the bible is made of, they limit the precision that is possible. I know a woodworker who jokes "Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe" The point being you can't get more precise than your least precise tool and language (never mind life) is just not as precise as the way wants to make it. No wonder a person who subscribes to their beliefs needs to ignore so many things they know in their gut. When (if) they get tired of ignoring those things, they have no choice but to leave.

Using a statement like that is another way of framing the question to give power to those in authority. It assumes that any practice or doctrine is either error or not - either right or wrong. Thus anyone who can discerne truth from error has a lot of power over those who can't discern it as well. I don't look at life that way anymore. I tend to view things as useful or not rather than right or wrong.

That's the ironic part. They don't realize the contradiction that if they are "spiritual enough" to get this info or attack or whatever, why aren't they spiritual enough to not let it affect their moods? Don't they have the renewed mind?But of course, when you get in a cult, a sense of irony is one of the first to go.

Wrong question, Ex. The right question is how can you be sure to BE the one who wins. The answer is you can't. Humans have evolved to be pretty bad at judging risk/probability. But with the lottery there's something else at play. One reason it appeals overwhelmingly to poor people is that if you feel like you have no chance at a good future (and more poor people feel that way then middle class) then your future FEELS just as bad if you waste $5 a week on the lottery or if you don't. So it doesn't feel like there's much of a downside. And the upside (however unlikely) FEELS great. However if you feel like you're moving up in life - especially if you feel like it's because of effort you're putting out, then you'll be less likely to waste money on something that has a poor probability of paying off. Just another example of how those who make their decisions by emotion are more easily exploited.