WordWolf

You remember correctly. We were responding to a position he held at the time. (I don't know what his current position is.) He didn't use the term, but it was what's called "Openness Theology" in Christian circles (or "Open Theism".) He stated it with a presentation on Genesis 3 he titled "A Pivot Point in History." We both concluded that his presentation had a number of fundamental errors in it, and addressed each in turn. We never intended to make its details public, so it was never presented as such on the GSC. That having been said, there were some interesting ideas that WERE discussed on a thread here. Personally, I think one of the thread's posters behaved poorly and kept interrupting the discussion, but we had an interesting discussion around him, and addressed some issues that the original paper never touched on. The thread was called "What does God know?"

John Candy Planes Trains and Automobiles Steve Martin

[i think it's sad some ex-twi are no longer Christians, also. However, they are ADULTS and I respect their rights to CHOOSE. I do, however, blame twi and vpw for the reason they so chose. If my experience was that Christians were terrible people who ruined lives, controlled lives, and their leadership was free to rape and destroy reputations if someone disagreed with them, then I might be prepared to discard all Christians as a lost cause. I certainly discarded Christians as a lost cause for much less reason when I was young and foolish, so substantial reasons make some sense. So, SHAME ON VPW. SHAME ON LCM. SHAME ON RFR. SHAME ON TWI. They have done the things that displease God, and have hurt His people and driven His people far from Him. God will hold each of them responsible for their evil deeds.]

[it's a site with many Christians that is not specifically a "Christian" site. All are welcome here, especially those with twi history, for whom this site is meant. (Them and people seeking information on twi.] [i, personally, wasn't treated particularly badly by twi people. If you don't count toxic doctrine and bad practical and doctrinal error, it wasn't bad for me particularly. (Then only various a-holes account for any bad experiences.) It's all the crimes and moral wrongs done by vpw, lcm, rfr and others that were done-and are STILL done- that need to be exposed. We were all lied to, deceived-and it was an orchestrated plan with a LOT of lies- and it worked. We were all deceived. That's morally wrong, and various crimes were also committed-including Fraud and Rape. Some lost their lives because of twi. If that's not enough of a reason for having more than a "dislike" for someone or some thing, then SHAME ON YOU. In other news, why do all the people who object to the GSC all use THE SAME LANGUAGE? There's always this obsession with infants in a tub. EVERY FREAKING TIME someone doesn't like us, they mention a baby, and bathwater, and a few other things, and that's about all they say. It's like they're all reading from a short script or something. Aren't any of you permitted to think for yourselves? I mean, if we got the same complaints, I'd expect them to use different phrases to make them. I've also noticed that different people count different things as "baby"- what's important- and "bath water"- what's to be discarded. If you mean "believe the Bible and trust it", I've retained that "baby". If you mean "believe twi's package and sum total", I've tossed that out as "bath water." What was true before vpw was born is still true. What are lies and deceptions are useless to me no matter whose name is on the label.] [it's not a Christian site, but you'll still get treated better here as a dissenter than as a dissenter in twi. They're a LOT more cruel to their objectors. Again with this "tripped out" thing. Same language again! Is there some "anti-GSC Manifesto" or something with the handful of phrases? It's got to come from SOMEWHERE. I left twi because twi as a whole decided-openly-to follow men rather than God. I consider twi to have "tripped out." I've done my best to follow God no matter who was alongside me and what titles were used. ]

Ok, I give up. I can post the entire script and you won't get it. This is "10 Things I Hate About You." It's a modern retelling of "the Taming of the Shrew", set in a high school. Some of the names were taken directly from the book, and there was a quote from the book, as well as various nods to Shakespeare across the movie. Julia Stiles is in this one, of course. It seemed like, if you were going to do a modern version of Shakespeare, you had to include Julia Stiles for a while. (She played the shrew.) Heath Ledger was also in this one. In this movie, Bianca can't date until her father gives permission. He gives CONDITIONAL permission- she can date when Katherine dates-but Kat doesn't like ANYBODY. One guy hopes to try to date Bianca, so he pays another guy to ask out Kat so he can try to have a shot. Bianca and Kat's dad is terrified something will happen to his daughters as soon as they are out of sight. I numbered the poem Kat wrote at the end, so that it more obviously lists the 10 things she hates about him (which things count as the 10 are debatable, I made my best guess) in the hope someone would see the list and think of the name of the movie, and put 2 and 2 together. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0147800/ https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/10_Things_I_Hate_About_You_(film) "A loose adaptation of Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew set in a modern Seattle, Washington, American high school, the screenplay was written by Karen McCullah Lutz and Kirsten Smith. The film's title is a reference to a poem written by the film's female lead to describe her bittersweet romance with the male lead. The film was released March 31, 1999, and it was a breakout success for stars Stiles and Ledger." "The movie contains several references to William Shakespeare's The Taming of the Shrew, on which the plot is loosely based. The first reference in the film to this fact is that Michael calls Kat a Shrew in the beginning of the film. Also, the high school's name is Padua, and Padua is the Italian city where the Shakespeare play is set. The main characters are given names similar to their counterparts in the play. Shakespeare's Petruchio from Verona is the movie's Patrick Verona. The sisters Katharina ("Kate") and Bianca Minola become Katarina ("Kat") and Bianca Stratford (Stratford being Shakespeare's city of birth). Lastly, in the play, Bianca is successfully wooed by Lucentio as he disguises himself as a tutor named Cambio, from which comes the name Cameron and the plot device of becoming her French tutor. Also in the play, the father reacts to his younger daughter's many suitors by stipulating that Kate must be married before Bianca can be. However, the movie takes a different direction from the play..." ============================================ IF ANYONE'S GOT A MOVIE, GO AHEAD. FREE POST!!!

There was other stuff italicized besides names-like 2 full sentences.

I'm curious. What leads you to think he honestly didn't understand the difference between truth and lies?

Oh, please. Over a decade, and you STILL don't know how the internet works? If you post ridiculous tripe, people will "call you" on it. As they should. Look- if I posted some ridiculous nonsense without supporting it, I'd get replies pretty fast. The nicer posts would insist on some evidence to support my claim. The rest of the posts would show my claim was silly. If I said "vpw used to dress in women's clothing at the SNS, and preferred to be called "Sapphire" when he was dressed up," you'd be all over that in a second. The same is true of everyone, all over cyberspace. But you seem to think you're special and get special treatment. That would be cute if THAT wasn't sad also.

That's a startling thing to say. If this was from a new poster, I could excuse it as "they have read little" or "someone misinformed them." This black-and-white, you-are-against-me-or-for-me type of thinking is typical of the dysfunctional thinking patterns twi foisted on its participants. Some of us have rid ourselves of it, some of us have tried and failed, and some of us are happy with living a simpler life where there are no nuances or anything in between the extremes. This position stated above is a bizarre caricature of a position, something nobody has put forth. (Notice no references to anyone having actually SAID it in any form, even "many ways" or "elaborated.") How does one come to the place where posting this is "correct" after years of seeing it obviously is non-factual? There's a few possibilities: A) Lying is perfectly acceptable if the poster is the one doing it. B) One can't see outside the mental "prison" of a framework that only holds extremes. C) One can distort things if one is upset. D) One is hallucinating completely and doesn't see the posts others make at all. I find all the possibilities disappointing and sad.

Please read the poll, think it over, and then select the one that most closely reflects your opinion.

Please read carefully, think this over, and select your HONEST answer.

"So, I hear you were terrorizing Mr. Morgan's class... again." "Expressing my opinion is not a terrorist action." "The way you expressed your opinion to Bobby Ridgeway? By the way, his testicle retrieval operation went quite well, in case you're interested." "I still maintain that he kicked HIMSELF in the balls." "Do you know what happens at proms?" "Yes. We'll dance, we'll kiss, we'll come home. It's not quite the crisis situation you imagine." "Kissing? That's what you think happens? I've got news for you. Kissing isn't what keeps me up to my elbows in placenta all day long." "Can we, for two seconds, ignore the fact that you're severely unhinged and discuss my need for a night of teenage normalcy?" "What's normal? Those damn... Dawson's river kids sleeping in each other's beds and what not?" "Daddy that is so not..." "I've got news for you. I'm down, I've got the 411, and you are not going out and getting jiggy with some boy, I don't care how dope his ride is. Mamma didn't raise no fool." "Where's your sister going?" "She's meeting some bikers. Big ones. Full of sperm." "Funny.... So, tell me about this dance, was it hoppin'?" "Ugh. Parts of it." "Which parts?" "The part where Bianca beat the hell out of some guy." "Bianca did WHAT?" "What's the matter, upset that I rubbed off on her?" "No, impressed." "Hello Katarina. Make anybody cry today?" "Sadly no, but it's only 4:30." "I burn, I pine, I perish." "Of course you do. You know, she's beautiful and deep, I'm sure." "Sweet love, renew thy force." "Hey! Don't say sh** like that to me. People can hear you." "You don't buy black lingerie unless you want someone to see it." "(1) I hate the way you talk to me, (2) and the way you cut your hair. (3) I hate the way you drive my car. (4) I hate it when you stare. (5) I hate your big dumb combat boots, and the way you read my mind. I hate you so much it makes me sick; it even makes me rhyme. I hate it, (6) I hate the way you're always right. (7) I hate it when you lie. (8) I hate it when you make me laugh, even worse when you make me cry. (9) I hate it when you're not around, and the fact that you didn't call. But mostly (10)I hate the way I don't hate you. Not even close, not even a little bit, not even at all. " "Shoulda used the window!" "Hi Daddy!" "Hi... where're we going?" "Well, if you must know... a small study group of friends." "Otherwise known as an orgy?" "Mr. Stratford, it's just a party! "And hell is just a sauna." "People perceive you as somewhat..." "Tempestuous?" "'Heinous bitch' is the term used most often." "It's not everyday you find a girl who'll flash someone to get you out of detention." "Mr. Morgan, is there any chance we could get Kat to take her Midol *before* she comes to class?" "Someday, you gonna get bitch-slapped and I'm not gonna do a thing to stop it." "Nine schools in ten years. My, my. Army brat? "Yeah, my-my dad is, uh..." "That's enough. I'm sure you won't find Padua any different than your old schools. Same little @$$wipe Shi+-for-brains everywhere." "Excuse me? D-Did you just say... Am I in the right office?" "Not any more you're not. I've got deviants to see and a novel to finish. Now scoot. Scoot!" "Patrick Verona. I see we're making our visits a weekly ritual." "Only so we can have these moments together. Should I, uh, hit the lights?" "Oh, very clever, kangaroo boy. Says here you exposed yourself in the cafeteria?" "I was joking with the lunch lady. It was a bratwurst." "Bratwurst? Aren't we the optimist? Next time, keep it in your pouch, okay? Scoot!" "You're gonna pay me to take out some chick?" "Mmhm." "How much?" "20 bucks. ...fine, 30." "Well, let's think about this... we go to the movies, that's 15 bucks. We get popcorn, that's 53. And she'll want raisonettes, alright? So, we're looking at 75 bucks." "This isn't a negotiation. Take it or leave it trailer park." "50 bucks and we got a deal, Fabio." "So what's your excuse?" "For?" "Acting the way we do." "I don't like to do what people expect.Why should I live up to other people's expectations instead of my own?" "So you disappoint them from the start and then you're covered, right?" "Something like that." "Then you screwed up!" "How?" "You never disappointed me." "Some @$$H0LE paid me to take out this really great girl." "Is that right?" "Yeah, but I screwed up. I, um, I fell for her." (Oh, and the numbers are not part of the script, as such.)

Released in 1999. Larry Miller is in it, but does not play a primary character. One actor who DOES died a few years ago. I put a few names in italics...do they suggest anything? Are my clues too tame to trigger any memories?

"So, I hear you were terrorizing Mr. Morgan's class... again." "Expressing my opinion is not a terrorist action." "The way you expressed your opinion to Bobby Ridgeway? By the way, his testicle retrieval operation went quite well, in case you're interested." "I still maintain that he kicked HIMSELF in the balls." "Do you know what happens at proms?" "Yes. We'll dance, we'll kiss, we'll come home. It's not quite the crisis situation you imagine." "Kissing? That's what you think happens? I've got news for you. Kissing isn't what keeps me up to my elbows in placenta all day long." "Can we, for two seconds, ignore the fact that you're severely unhinged and discuss my need for a night of teenage normalcy?" "What's normal? Those damn... Dawson's river kids sleeping in each other's beds and what not?" "Daddy that is so not..." "I've got news for you. I'm down, I've got the 411, and you are not going out and getting jiggy with some boy, I don't care how dope his ride is. Mamma didn't raise no fool." "Where's your sister going?" "She's meeting some bikers. Big ones. Full of sperm." "Funny.... So, tell me about this dance, was it hoppin'?" "Ugh. Parts of it." "Which parts?" "The part where Bianca beat the hell out of some guy." "Bianca did WHAT?" "What's the matter, upset that I rubbed off on her?" "No, impressed." "Hello Katarina. Make anybody cry today?" "Sadly no, but it's only 4:30." "I burn, I pine, I perish." "Of course you do. You know, she's beautiful and deep, I'm sure." "Sweet love, renew thy force." "Hey! Don't say sh** like that to me. People can hear you." "You don't buy black lingerie unless you want someone to see it." "I hate the way you talk to me, and the way you cut your hair. I hate the way you drive my car. I hate it when you stare. I hate your big dumb combat boots, and the way you read my mind. I hate you so much it makes me sick; it even makes me rhyme. I hate it, I hate the way you're always right. I hate it when you lie. I hate it when you make me laugh, even worse when you make me cry. I hate it when you're not around, and the fact that you didn't call. But mostly I hate the way I don't hate you. Not even close, not even a little bit, not even at all. " "Shoulda used the window!" "Hi Daddy!" "Hi... where're we going?" "Well, if you must know... a small study group of friends." "Otherwise known as an orgy?" "Mr. Stratford, it's just a party! "And hell is just a sauna." "People perceive you as somewhat..." "Tempestuous?" "'Heinous bitch' is the term used most often." "It's not everyday you find a girl who'll flash someone to get you out of detention." "Mr. Morgan, is there any chance we could get Kat to take her Midol *before* she comes to class?" "Someday, you gonna get bitch-slapped and I'm not gonna do a thing to stop it." "Nine schools in ten years. My, my. Army brat? "Yeah, my-my dad is, uh..." "That's enough. I'm sure you won't find Padua any different than your old schools. Same little @$$wipe Shi+-for-brains everywhere." "Excuse me? D-Did you just say... Am I in the right office?" "Not any more you're not. I've got deviants to see and a novel to finish. Now scoot. Scoot!" "Patrick Verona. I see we're making our visits a weekly ritual." "Only so we can have these moments together. Should I, uh, hit the lights?" "Oh, very clever, kangaroo boy. Says here you exposed yourself in the cafeteria?" "I was joking with the lunch lady. It was a bratwurst." "Bratwurst? Aren't we the optimist? Next time, keep it in your pouch, okay? Scoot!" "You're gonna pay me to take out some chick?" "Mmhm." "How much?" "20 bucks. ...fine, 30." "Well, let's think about this... we go to the movies, that's 15 bucks. We get popcorn, that's 53. And she'll want raisonettes, alright? So, we're looking at 75 bucks." "This isn't a negotiation. Take it or leave it trailer park." "50 bucks and we got a deal, Fabio." "So what's your excuse?" "For?" "Acting the way we do." "I don't like to do what people expect.Why should I live up to other people's expectations instead of my own?" "So you disappoint them from the start and then you're covered, right?" "Something like that." "Then you screwed up!" "How?" "You never disappointed me." "Some .... paid me to take out this really great girl." "Is that right?" "Yeah, but I screwed up. I, um, I fell for her."

No. Try and put together what you've got about the school. At least 1 attribute of the movie's being ignored.

Identifying solely with one group like that is very convenient.... mostly for whoever is managing the group. "It's good to be the king." REAL leaders actually do things that BENEFIT OTHERS, not just BENEFIT THEMSELVES.

"So, I hear you were terrorizing Mr. Morgan's class... again." "Expressing my opinion is not a terrorist action." "The way you expressed your opinion to Bobby Ridgeway? By the way, his testicle retrieval operation went quite well, in case you're interested." "I still maintain that he kicked HIMSELF in the balls." "Do you know what happens at proms?" "Yes. We'll dance, we'll kiss, we'll come home. It's not quite the crisis situation you imagine." "Kissing? That's what you think happens? I've got news for you. Kissing isn't what keeps me up to my elbows in placenta all day long." "Can we, for two seconds, ignore the fact that you're severely unhinged and discuss my need for a night of teenage normalcy?" "What's normal? Those damn... Dawson's river kids sleeping in each other's beds and what not?" "Daddy that is so not..." "I've got news for you. I'm down, I've got the 411, and you are not going out and getting jiggy with some boy, I don't care how dope his ride is. Mamma didn't raise no fool." "Where's your sister going?" "She's meeting some bikers. Big ones. Full of sperm." "Funny.... So, tell me about this dance, was it hoppin'?" "Ugh. Parts of it." "Which parts?" "The part where Bianca beat the hell out of some guy." "Bianca did WHAT?" "What's the matter, upset that I rubbed off on her?" "No, impressed." "Hello Katarina. Make anybody cry today?" "Sadly no, but it's only 4:30." "I burn, I pine, I perish." "Of course you do. You know, she's beautiful and deep, I'm sure." "Sweet love, renew thy force." "Hey! Don't say sh** like that to me. People can hear you." "You don't buy black lingerie unless you want someone to see it." "I hate the way you talk to me, and the way you cut your hair. I hate the way you drive my car. I hate it when you stare. I hate your big dumb combat boots, and the way you read my mind. I hate you so much it makes me sick; it even makes me rhyme. I hate it, I hate the way you're always right. I hate it when you lie. I hate it when you make me laugh, even worse when you make me cry. I hate it when you're not around, and the fact that you didn't call. But mostly I hate the way I don't hate you. Not even close, not even a little bit, not even at all. " "Shoulda used the window!" "Hi Daddy!" "Hi... where're we going?" "Well, if you must know... a small study group of friends." "Otherwise known as an orgy?" "Mr. Stratford, it's just a party! "And hell is just a sauna." "People perceive you as somewhat..." "Tempestuous?" "'Heinous bitch' is the term used most often." "It's not everyday you find a girl who'll flash someone to get you out of detention." "Mr. Morgan, is there any chance we could get Kat to take her Midol *before* she comes to class?" "Someday, you gonna get bitch-slapped and I'm not gonna do a thing to stop it." "Nine schools in ten years. My, my. Army brat? "Yeah, my-my dad is, uh..." "That's enough. I'm sure you won't find Padua any different than your old schools. Same little @$$wipe Shi+-for-brains everywhere." "Excuse me? D-Did you just say... Am I in the right office?" "Not any more you're not. I've got deviants to see and a novel to finish. Now scoot. Scoot!" "Patrick Verona. I see we're making our visits a weekly ritual." "Only so we can have these moments together. Should I, uh, hit the lights?" "Oh, very clever, kangaroo boy. Says here you exposed yourself in the cafeteria?" "I was joking with the lunch lady. It was a bratwurst." "Bratwurst? Aren't we the optimist? Next time, keep it in your pouch, okay? Scoot!"

"So, I hear you were terrorizing Mr. Morgan's class... again." "Expressing my opinion is not a terrorist action." "The way you expressed your opinion to Bobby Ridgeway? By the way, his testicle retrieval operation went quite well, in case you're interested." "I still maintain that he kicked HIMSELF in the balls." "Do you know what happens at proms?" "Yes. We'll dance, we'll kiss, we'll come home. It's not quite the crisis situation you imagine." "Kissing? That's what you think happens? I've got news for you. Kissing isn't what keeps me up to my elbows in placenta all day long." "Can we, for two seconds, ignore the fact that you're severely unhinged and discuss my need for a night of teenage normalcy?" "What's normal? Those damn... Dawson's river kids sleeping in each other's beds and what not?" "Daddy that is so not..." "I've got news for you. I'm down, I've got the 411, and you are not going out and getting jiggy with some boy, I don't care how dope his ride is. Mamma didn't raise no fool." "Where's your sister going?" "She's meeting some bikers. Big ones. Full of sperm." "Funny.... So, tell me about this dance, was it hoppin'?" "Ugh. Parts of it." "Which parts?" "The part where Bianca beat the hell out of some guy." "Bianca did WHAT?" "What's the matter, upset that I rubbed off on her?" "No, impressed." "Hello Katarina. Make anybody cry today?" "Sadly no, but it's only 4:30." "I burn, I pine, I perish." "Of course you do. You know, she's beautiful and deep, I'm sure." "Sweet love, renew thy force." "Hey! Don't say sh** like that to me. People can hear you." "You don't buy black lingerie unless you want someone to see it." "I hate the way you talk to me, and the way you cut your hair. I hate the way you drive my car. I hate it when you stare. I hate your big dumb combat boots, and the way you read my mind. I hate you so much it makes me sick; it even makes me rhyme. I hate it, I hate the way you're always right. I hate it when you lie. I hate it when you make me laugh, even worse when you make me cry. I hate it when you're not around, and the fact that you didn't call. But mostly I hate the way I don't hate you. Not even close, not even a little bit, not even at all. "

twi didn't document it themselves, but 1957 would most likely be the year, since that was the year he and his denomination parted ways.

You guys forgot I assembled a timeline of his life in the "the way:living in wonderland" thread. This is a copy of the last iteration of the timeline (5.6). ======================================== ==== This timeline is mostly from publications OF TWI. ========= Let's see. victor paul wierwille was born to a large family of German descent. (Born December 31, 1916.) According to locals, Ernst, his father, was an alcoholic with negligible education, with a bad temper who acted as a bully.This was true in his dealings with locals AND with his own family.Each child had their own chores. Little Victor chose to neglect his chores, and would vanish for hours into the woods nearby. (It has been noted that this running off may have been as much to avoid an abusive father as it was to avoid doing any work. Or it may be unrelated.) He claimed that when he was young, he once told a minister that he wanted to be a man of God like him. Other than this statement, Little Victor showed no actual involvement in the church, no actual effort or work in the things of the church. So, this seems to suggest an interest-not in being a man of God- but in being the man the whole community turned out to see, to have their respect. As a teenager, young Vic continued to lack any qualities of a man of God. In fact, he went out of his way to earn a reputation going in the opposite direction. He was a bully, a showoff and a braggart. (He seems to have been taught this at home.)He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention. His demonstrated talents seemed to be limited to his quick wit and his ability to play a guitar, which he showed competency in. Old Man Wierwille was preparing to pass on thefamily farm to young Vic, as was the family tradition. Young Vic balked at this. He'd had plans to go to college. At first, he considered a few fields-business and so on- but by this time, he had decided upon the seminary. (This was before the time he referred to as "believing the Bible as the Word of God".) Old Man Wierwille was skeptical of this, and said that young Vic, having shown lack of hard work on simple manual labour on the farm, would never make a good preacher. Young Vic convinced him he would do better with books than with sweating out in the field. Young Vic went to school for the ministry. His community thought it was some kind of joke- everyone knew he lacked the proper character. (He never overcame that impression with them.) Victor had the option to study "Bible Languages" or other subjects requiring hard study. He instead chose to study Homiletics, the "softest" option he could have learned. (He never overcame his deficiency in study in Bible languages, church history, etc.-not even to the level of an informed layman as of 2004.) Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). According to vpw, he and Mrs W married secretly while he was still in college. No reason for this was ever given. Victor suggested he played on his college's basketball team, and that after college he played on the professional team "the Sheboygan Redskins." His claim of each was phrased ambiguously ("I played basketball all through college" "I was involved in the Sheboygan Redskins") and the purpose seems to have been so that he was believed to have said he did both without actually making the claims. Later, he began making claims that he also "invented the hook shot" at this time. He graduated with a BA from Lakeland College in 1937. Donald was born in 1940. Victor graduated Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941, with a Masters in Practical Theology. He did his "trial sermons" in 1941 in Payne, Ohio for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. According to his memorial in 1985, he started his first pastorate July 1941, and was ordained July 29, 1941. (According to his account in TW:LIL, his first pastorate began in 1944 in Van Wert, Ohio, and continued until 1957.) Victor entered his first pastorate and wasted little time becoming a bully and a control freak AGAIN. He himself claimed he started his job by immediately doing whatever the elders told him not to do- even though it hampered his ability to do his job properly. According to him, they confronted him on this, he mouthed off at them, and they just let him go about his business, and the local church prospered as a direct result of him. He was known for building a fairly interesting sermon, and getting people involved, including the youths. (This was STILL before the time when he claimed he believed the Bible was the Word of God.) He said the following year, (1942) he slowly became discouraged and was searching. He was still the man he had been, which is to say he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, liked attention, and viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling. (He could have been just as "called" as an accountant or actuary, say.) During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister. About a year later (Payne, 1942, August), he met Rosal1nd R1nker. She was a former missionary to China and Korea. She's remembered as the anonymous person who asks vpw "Why don't you search for the greatest of all things in life which would teach Christians the HOW of a really victorious life?" This woman fixed a great deal of attention on him, and had a forceful personality. She spent some time with him alone. It was of this time that he later claimed he asked forgiveness of God. He also credits her with DOGGING HIM "on the Bible being the Word of God", and she "got me STARTED on the right track". which, until this time, he hadn't believed, not even in all his years of school. During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister in August AND September. One month later (September 1942), an event happened that he later showed a habit of re-writing. As Victor told God he was getting ready to quit (again), He claimed that God spoke to him and said He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word) like it had not been known since the 1st century, if he (Victor) would teach it to others. (This is the famous 1942 promise.) vpw did not discuss this event with anyone until he told the early corps-according to Mrs W. Thus, the earliest possible origin-point of this story is 1969, when the "zero corps" was begun. Victor of course lacked the education in church history to contextualize this claim- since it was inaccurate as stated. This implies that this was a made-up story, or it came from a god lacking knowledge in history. Victor later added a second part to his story- a snowstorm. He said that he required PROOF of God, and asked God to let him see it snow. A moment later, he opened his eyes, and he saw a veritable blizzard out his window. The later addition to this story suggest that he felt it needed more support after using the initial story. Victor showed no marked improvement, neither in character, nor in behaviour, thru the rest of the 1940s (nearly the entire decade after this supposed promise), which strongly supports the rather direct assertion that he lied thru his teeth. vpw referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. October 3, 1942, vpw did his first radio broadcast. He continued to do a radio show under one name or another for several years- Vesper Chimes, aka Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Its name changes to Chimes Hour Youth Caravan in 1947. Rhoda joined its staff in 1947. (Supposedly, the name "the Way" was in the documentation for this group since 1942.) In 1948, vpw was issued a "Doctorate" from Pikes Peak Seminary, an organization lacking accreditation and formal classes (among other things.) At some point, vpw began claiming that he took EVERY class Moody Bible School's Correspondence program issued. According to official records at Moody, vpw never turned in a single class of their correspondence school. This may mean he took classes and never finished ANY (which indicates laziness), or that he was lying about taking any of their classes. At one point, Rufus Moseley attempted to minister Holy Spirit to vpw, but vpw demonstrated an inability to receive it. In 1951, he visited missionaries in Honduras. In 1951, vpw made another claim he was ready to give up on the ministry (even after, supposedly a direct promise of God about really important stuff which promptly failed to materialize.) In November, 1951, vpw attended the Full Gospel Rally, in Tulsa, Oklahoma (a big Evangelical conference.) He made several claims of this conference. People at the conference OTHER than vpw supposedly had no difficulty beginning speaking in tongues. He claimed he faked speaking in tongues in a clever way, and others were unable to tell. He was further disillusioned about working for God. He then claimed a miraculous snowstorm blocked him into the city entirely, and ALL the evidence there NO blizzard whatsoever (and there was a WEALTH of evidence -at the airports, Amtrak and bus depot, the hotel staff, the attendees, etc) was concealed by angels. vpw also, apparently, never approached a window, or they made an illusion at the window. vpw has referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. (Many people currently feel that vpw completely made up the story that God spoke to him in 1942, and that his dependence upon this event plus the event at the Full Gospel Rally to establish his authority were both dressed up with made-up snowstorms to make them sound more spectacular. The specifics of both appear to support this position-especially since vpw was fond of increasing the magnitude of his claims in things as time went on.) Supposedly, a woman came up to him and told him that she knew a man who can help him- JE Stiles. He claims God told Stiles to attend the conference with the sole purpose of ministering the Spirit to vpw. vpw met with Stiles, and made a few chauvinistic observations to himself, before going off with Stiles. Stiles worked with him for a few hours nonstop, hammering across to vpw what the Bible says on speaking in tongues, and working over his doubts one by one. Finally, vpw was able to speak in tongues. It was during the 1950s that vpw's behaviour was noted to finally improve, although he still did not stop including inappropriate words or concepts in his sermons. In March, 1953, vpw found out about BG Leonard, and pushed his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard told him was closed, but permitted him to enter after vpw arrived. vpw took this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. (That second time was July 1953.) vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then ran the first of "his" Receiving the Holy Spirit Today classes, (October 1953) and took a photograph of that class. He told the students that this is "his" class called RtHST, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content had been directly lifted. The students had no reason to think he's lying. vpw sent the photograph to Leonard and told Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard took vpw at his word, and had no idea that vpw continued to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. That the classes were interchangeable in terms of material was the opinion of vpw himself- anyone who had graduated Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class was considered to be-by vpw- a graduate of "vpw's" RtHST class. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. He also renamed the class "Power For Abundant Living", rather than "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". vpw later made a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) It is often noted that the supposed 1942 promise claimed vpw would be taught-by God- things unknown since the First Century Christians, if vpw would teach others- yet ALL the material vpw taught was all taken from Leonard/Stiles/Bullinger/Kenyon and a few others, and thus, it was all KNOWN. Therefore, if a god gave vpw revelation in 1942, it was a god that lied, since vpw's source for everything was MAN and NEVER represented information lost since the First Century AD-not even once. In 1953, vpw also took JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changed a few words, and self-published it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." That it was the same year is no coincidence-it was the "original" textbook for the "original" class. ("Original" in the sense that they were the 1.0 version of his class, not that they originated at that time.) Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book. Among the changes was the deletion of a reference to an anonymous Christian who "put it together" for vpw (that was Stiles), who was missing by the 4th edition book, where vpw put it all together himself. vpw ran "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. Dr E.E. Higgins was one of the students in the October 1953 class. She's known as the anonymous person who would call vpw at night and ask what God showed him that day. In 1954, Dr Higgins first introduced vpw to EW Bullinger's books, and gave him his first copies of the Companion Bible, and "How to Enjoy the Bible." The contents of both these books later became integral parts of "vpw's" class. According to his published memorial, Bishop KC Pillai took PFAL in 1954, and began teaching a class on"Orientalisms of the Bible". (Pillai also wrote 3 small books: "Light Through an Eastern Window" and Volumes I and II of "Orientalisms of the Bible.") According to the memorial in 1985, 1955 was the year they officially chartered "the Way". In 1955, JP was born. 2 months later, VPW left JP with family for the next year or so, and took his wife and eldest son on a tour of the mission fields in India, on the Evangelical and Reformed Church's dime.(1955-1957) (Per TW:LIL) He was irritated that he's reminded he is not officially designated as a spokesman or investigator of theirs. According to his account in TW:LIL, he there met Bishop KC Pillai, whom he later invited to teach. According to the memorial, this tour of the mission fields ran from 1955-1956, and included stops in Great Britain, Europe, India, and "the Bible lands." According to the memorial, 1956 was when he wrote "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India."(According to TW:LIL) In 1957, vpw returned to Van Wert. He cut his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and took "his" PFAL class with him.In 1957, he and Harry bought out their brothers and bought the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declared it the propertyof "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.)(Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work began on fixing up the farm. In 1959, he ran a Wisconsin Summer Camp. In 1960, he ran an Indiana Summer Camp. In 1961, he moved to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient for the move). Bishop Pillai arrived and taught at the summer school. (Per TW:LIL.) In 1961, he ran a Miamisburg, Ohio Summer Camp. In 1962, he moved the summer school to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient to hold classes there in the new BRC.) In 1962, Lamsa taught at the summer school.(Lamsa is another unconventional teacher who claimed special knowledge of the Bible and special status as a man of God.) In 1963, vpw went to Lima, Ohio and filmed the sessions called "the Teacher". (Despite this, success STILL had not taken off as vpw wished.) According to the memorial, 1967 was when "Are the Dead Alive Now?" (which is adapted from some of Bullinger's books) was published, and PFAL was filmed. This was the edition of PFAL that incorporated Bullinger's books (the contents, but not the books themselves) into the curriculum. In Fall of 1967, vpw first filmed the PFAL class. This was done in a setting with bright studio lights. (Bright studio lights do not cause cancer.) vpw claimed that a doctor told him that filming a second day would mean permanent eye damage, and that he was staring into 8000 watts. He filmed for 3 complete days, getting sore eyes from the bright lights (which do not cause cancer.) The figure of 2000 watts seems to be a more realistic figure for the light level of the filmed class (which is still VERY bright.) According to TW:LIL, In 1967, vpw read about the Christians at the House of Acts. vpw went there, impressed them, and convinced them he has extensive, EXCLUSIVE knowledge they lack. He then turned those he could from unorganized Christians into a recruitment arm for his class and organization. They agreed to handle things on the East and West coasts, and many young Christians were impressed with THEM and join. It's been suggested that one of the reasons he went there was because he'd heard of the "free-love" movement and wanted to connect with Christians who would have sex outside of marriage. Thus claim might sound ridiculous if his accounts of them didn't include little comments about their displays of affection-and especially since he'd asked one of them-back then and there-to give him DETAILS on what an orgy was like. He followed up by claiming that God PERMITTED orgies-but considered monogamy BETTER. It's also believed that San Francisco is where vpw bought the pornographic materials he showed the corps, some Advanced Classes and CFS classes-like the movie of the two women with the dog. (He MENTIONED that video to many Advanced classes and CFS classes where it was not SHOWN.) According to the memorial, his trip to Haight-Ashbury/House of Acts was in 1968. As of 1969, sizeable numbers of young people had flocked to twi from both coasts as a result. Once there was sizeable membership in both coasts, vpw pushed out the Christians from the House of Acts and insisted authority would come FROM hq and tithes would go TO hq. No exceptions. At that point (1969), vpw made his first attempt at a Way Corps, which resulted in the famous "Zero Corps". At some point-presumably early in the way corps history, and possibly as early as 1969, vpw (according to Mrs W's account) first begins to tell his "snow on the pumps" account to people, starting with the way corps. At another point-before the early 1970s-vpw began adding to the "special revelation" that produced the books and classes (which were really compilations of the work of other Christians with their names removed) and began speaking of special revelation about current events. He began to expound on some conspiracy theories to the corps, and about attempts to take over the United States. vpw was getting this material from the John Birch Society and the Liberty Lobby. A few people on-grounds were aware of information coming in from them, but almost nobody knew those were the direct sources of his supposed "revelation". As he had done often before, he just claimed to mysteriously know things and never cited a source-leaving the listeners to guess that there WAS no conventional source, making this ANOTHER thing God just told him. These conspiracy theorist organizations and their personal biases fill in the blanks in some of his odder statements. Their anti-Semitism helps explain his claims that the current Jews were not descended from the historic Jews (which has been disproven genetically since), and his recommendations of books like "the Thirteenth Tribe." Their condemnation of rock and roll and musician/celebrities explain his claims of all musicians being possessed, and his recommendation of "the Marxist Minstrels" to the corps (which claimed rock and roll was a communist plot to take over the United States.) vpw even had David Noebel, who wrote "the Marxist Minstrels" come and lecture the corps. In 1971, vpw began his WOW Ambassador program. This program underwent some changes, but primarily was a one-year committment to get sent out, support yourself, find housing, and run PFAL classes. According to his memorial, 1971 was when the Orange Book, "Power for Abundant Living" was first self-published. It contained mostly material from Leonard's class and from Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible". A number of pamphlets called "Studies in Abundant Living" accompanied the PFAL class from fairly early on (the filmed class names "Studies in Human Suffering", later renamed "Job:Victim to Victor".) In 1971, the first 3 volumes of "Studies in Abundant Living" are published, compiling the pamphlets into 3 small hardbound books. In 1974, Emporia College in Emporia, Kansas was bought. It was renamed "the Way College of Emporia". Despite an absence of accreditation, licensed professors, and a school "library" composed ENTIRELY of used textbooks donated by way members, it was put forth as if it is a normal, accredited college. In 1975, "Jesus Christ is Not God" was published. This was the last book- not counting Vol 4 of Studies in Abundant Living- that was actually put together by vpw. In 1976, campuses were purchased in Rome City, Indiana ("the College of Biblical Research") and Gunnison, Colorado ("the Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison"). In 1977, the PFAL '77 was done live at Ball State University. According to the memorial, in 1977, Howard Allen and Donald Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees (replacing "Uncle" Harry Wierwille and Ermal Owens.) In 1977, Volume 4 of Studies in Abundant Living was published. In 1978, the land for the LEAD Outdoor Academy was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. In 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran (live, I imagine.) In 1980, "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. This was the first book written by competent staff and researchers. According to the book itself, it was written "by Victor Paul Wierwille", with no mention of anyone else. It was a higher-caliber book than twi normally self-publishes. In 1982, twi celebrates its "Fortieth Anniversary" since the radio shows that weren't called "the Way". In 1982, vpw installed LCM as the new president of twi and vpw becomes "president emeritus". In 1982, "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was published. It also was written by staff, and said "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. It relied largely on the calculations of another writer as well. This book also saw the breakthrough of proper crediting, since it actually named the other writer (Martin) and his book. In 1984, a live PFAL class was taught at Camp Gunnison, and a manor house was purchased in Gartmore, Scotland. It was named the Way College of Biblical Research. (aka Gartmore House, or "the big house" to the villagers of Gartmore.) vpw spent his life drinking alcoholic beverages and smoking cigarettes and cigars- tobacco products. Although he usually did it "off-camera", many people knew some of this. Everyone knew he at least smoked, but he seemed to chain-smoke when "no one was watching." Furthermore, he had a "coffee cup" next to him for morning meetings and so on-and often, the contents had nothing to do with coffee. Those who ever commented on it (who were few enough among those who noticed) were treated to his comments about us not being "under condemnation" and thus it wasn't sinful, and therefore had no consequences. However, there WERE consequences.... By 1984, the long-term exposure to alcohol-which damages internal organs, including those that act as the body's filtration system and also damages the brain- and long-term exposure to tobacco-which is a known cancer-causing agent (unlike studio lights)- resulted in some permanent damage to vpw' body. He acquired cancer of the eye and liver, and suffered a stroke. vpw quite vocally-and often- announced that the eye damage was the result of getting cancer from the studio lights used when filming PFAL- thus saying it was the result of virtuous activity, and used to give the students a guilty conscience. Once, when addressing the corps, he was speaking on personal committment to God. He said "I gave my EYE-what are YOU willing to give?" Further, in private, vpw was MOST disturbed that he had ANY physical problems, especially this one. He claimed he'd never been sick or needed an aspirin EVER- not ONE DAY in his life-before this. Not even in PRIVATE did he ever seem to admit he'd exposed his body to carcinogens for DECADES. He had surgery that removed the cancer-stricken eye. The details of the stroke were COMPLETELY hidden-although there were witnesses- and the existence of any cancer produced a problem. According to vpw's DOCTRINE, any Christian should be able to believe sufficiently to burn out a cancer from their body. vpw had slowly manipulated his personal image to the point that he was frequently seen as some sort of super-Christian-which is what he wanted. However, this meant he should have EASILY believed away his cancer. WORSE, he'd taught in the Advanced class that, since a cancer has a life of its own (like algae), it must be the result of devil activity. Since vpw was supposedly a super-Christian, he should have been able to deflect such an assault easily. However, rather than adjust his image, or correct his doctrine-which had already hurt many other Christians-he simply hid the cause of his descent into death. In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opened at the organizations hq on the farm. vpw died May 20, 1985 at age 68. According to his death certificate, the cause was cancer of the liver and of the eye. According to most people in twi at the time, the cause was UNKNOWN. The most commonly-stated reason was "he got tired of fighting." In the last few months of his life, vpw visited Gartmore and spoke privately with Chr1s Ge*r. He (CG) later claimed that his own paper which he wrote afterwards-"the Passing of the Patriarch"-was based entirely on private conversations with vpw. (Some people believe him, some do not.) That paper-among other things-also claims that vpw would have been able to "believe himself healthy" if he'd wanted to. Volume 5 of Studies in Abundant Living was published posthumously. Its contents were from vpw, it was edited by Chr1$ Ge*r. is the link to that thread.

"So, I hear you were terrorizing Mr. Morgan's class... again." "Expressing my opinion is not a terrorist action." "The way you expressed your opinion to Bobby Ridgeway? By the way, his testicle retrieval operation went quite well, in case you're interested." "I still maintain that he kicked HIMSELF in the balls." "Do you know what happens at proms?" "Yes. We'll dance, we'll kiss, we'll come home. It's not quite the crisis situation you imagine." "Kissing? That's what you think happens? I've got news for you. Kissing isn't what keeps me up to my elbows in placenta all day long." "Can we, for two seconds, ignore the fact that you're severely unhinged and discuss my need for a night of teenage normalcy?" "What's normal? Those damn... Dawson's river kids sleeping in each other's beds and what not?" "Daddy that is so not..." "I've got news for you. I'm down, I've got the 411, and you are not going out and getting jiggy with some boy, I don't care how dope his ride is. Mamma didn't raise no fool." "Where's your sister going?" "She's meeting some bikers. Big ones. Full of sperm." "Funny.... So, tell me about this dance, was it hoppin'?" "Ugh. Parts of it." "Which parts?" "The part where Bianca beat the hell out of some guy." "Bianca did WHAT?" "What's the matter, upset that I rubbed off on her?" "No, impressed." "Hello Katarina. Make anybody cry today?" "Sadly no, but it's only 4:30." "I burn, I pine, I perish." "Of course you do. You know, she's beautiful and deep, I'm sure." "Sweet love, renew thy force." "Hey! Don't say sh** like that to me. People can hear you." "You don't buy black lingerie unless you want someone to see it."

"So, I hear you were terrorizing Mr. Morgan's class... again." "Expressing my opinion is not a terrorist action." "The way you expressed your opinion to Bobby Ridgeway? By the way, his testicle retrieval operation went quite well, in case you're interested." "I still maintain that he kicked himself in the balls." "Do you know what happens at proms?" "Yes. We'll dance, we'll kiss, we'll come home. It's not quite the crisis situation you imagine." "Kissing? That's what you think happens? I've got news for you. Kissing isn't what keeps me up to my elbows in placenta all day long." "Can we, for two seconds, ignore the fact that you're severely unhinged and discuss my need for a night of teenage normalcy?" "What's normal? Those damn... Dawson's river kids sleeping in each other's beds and what not?" "Daddy that is so not..." "I've got news for you. I'm down, I've got the 411, and you are not going out and getting jiggy with some boy, I don't care how dope his ride is. Mamma didn't raise no fool."

T-Bone....

Those were called "MOUNTAINTOP CHECKBOOKS", at least when I bought one. I really have an opportunity when someone uses the wrong jargon...

(My rule of thumb is still: if people who never saw the movie would recognize it from that, then it's a good clue. I've recognized a number of movies on this thread, but haven't seen them.)