WordWolf

(double post) .

I've read different sources on this one, down the years, and most of them were convinced that the opposing point of view (and they disagreed completely) was held by fools who didn't know how to read, and that the verses totally supported their point of view. So far, I haven't seen anything new yet except different people holding them forth. However, if something new comes up, I reserve the right to be surprised. Ok, I was ASKED. Normally, I keep my verses-and opinions-out of other peoples' lives and discussions,but I was ASKED. [sarcasm] Glad to see none of us have already made up our minds before we fully explore this subject.... [/sarcasm] [milder sarcasm] Obviously, some of us consider discussing "abominations" or discussing Romans 1 to be either off-topic, or perhaps behind-the-times, a fossil of doctrine about local beliefs thousands of years ago, or otherwise inappropriate, or something else along those lines. [/milder sarcasm] No matter what perspective that reflected, it's one where it doesn't look like the verses are particularly WELCOME, especially if they're NOT used to draw the same conclusion- "biblically speaking". However, I was ASKED. =============== Since the verses that actually directly address the discussion seem to be viewed with some sort of negative, tired and trite light, I'll bring in something I noticed on my own time that will NOT be part of the cliche festival that some might be expecting.... (I felt the need to address all that. Now, some "steak" to match all the "sizzle"...) There's several words translated "wicked" in the KJV. Each seems to relate to a different concept, all translated "wicked." Concerning the Greek... "Poneros" seems to come closest to what most of us would think of as "Evil" with the capital "E." It's malignance, malevolence, the intent and action to cause harm to others. "Athesmos" seems to refer to the violation of the established rules and ordinances, hearing "thou shalt not" and going to do it anyway. "Kakos" seems to refer to "bad" in the sense of "worthless", something that adds nothing. The word I, personally, find interesting is "anomos". Bullinger renders it as "without law, not subject to law, lawless; then a violator of natural law." The roots of the word are "a-" meaning "no" or "not", and "nom" or "name". Those of you who've studied Sociology will be familiar with the term "anomie". Emile Durkheim was quite concerned with the concept, and coined the term for the concept from this Greek. In Sociology, it means "NORMLESSNESS", a state where there is no way to determine what is "right", what is "wrong". Durkheim coined the term when he discovered SUICIDE RATES went up during periods of anomie, when there was no standard, no rule, for determining what is "right" or what is "wrong." He was concerned with events contemporary to him, but they were hardly unique. Throughout history, different people in different places and times have faced societies when there were no rules common, where everyone did what was right in his OWN eyes, which, of course, may be completely WRONG, or outright INSANE. However, when a culture is in a state of "anomie", the only thing that is "wrong" is to actually say something is "wrong." I see the concept as being nearly identical to the word "anomos" in the New Testament Greek, where there is NO law, NO rule where one can say "THIS is all right, but THAT should not be done." Personally, I was more concerned with this concept as it related to II Thessalonians 2:8, since few verses give a lot of information. However, once the subject is understood, it can be seen in use in different places in Scripture-some where the word "anomos" is used, some where it is NOT. As I see it, this "discussion" was already determined before it BEGAN. It was framed as a matter of "well, saying Scripture calls Subject A 'wrong' is 'wrong', but let's discuss it." Perhaps I'm not seeing what others mean to say. Perhaps I misunderstand them. However, I HAVE waited and given the discussion a few days and waited, to see if my opinion of what's been said changed. No, I believe this IS what was meant. If someone wishes to say "I do not believe the Bible" or "I disagree with the Bible", I say they have the freedom to determine their own opinions and convictions. I see no reason to intrude where someone does not WISH me to intrude. All of you are adults. If you WANT me to help you change your opinion, you know how to ask. I disagree whenever anyone is prepared to determine what the Bible says, and then does whatever is necessary to change the meaning of verses and chapters, in order to make it appear to say what they WANT it to say. I disagree with that on moral grounds, no matter WHAT doctrine is being squeezed out of it- which means I will object when someone AGREES with me and tortures a verse to "support" it. (We've seen vpw do this, we've seen lcm do this, we've seen people outside of twi and in twi does this. I don't like ANY of it. I find it intellectually dishonest.) ======== So, others have had their say, in part. I've had my say, in part. I even skipped the verses someone didn't want addressed. Each poster, each reader, has the choice of blowing us both off, or of vilifying one or dismissing one. Or, preferably, disagree respectfully with at least one.

When addressing the good that some people do, I like to bring up one "upstanding citizen"- who was a member of the Jaycees, a local pillar of his community, got a high-level security clearance from the Secret Service, and was known locally for throwing block parties where he entertained local children as a clown. Sounds like a nice guy, right? "To everyone who met him, John Wayne Gacy seemed a likable and affable man. He was widely respected in the community, charming and easy to get along with. He was a good Catholic and sharp businessman who, when not running his construction company was active in the Jaycees and was also a Democratic Party precinct captain, when he had his photo taken with then First Lady, Rosalynn Carter. He also spent much of his free time hosting elaborate street parties for his friends and neighbors, serving in community groups and entertaining children as "Pogo the Clown". He was a generous, hard working, friendly, devoted family man, everyone knew that -- but that was the side of John Wayne Gacy that he allowed people to see. Underneath the smiling mask of the clown was the face of depraved fiend." http://www.prairieghosts.com/gacy.html For those who don't know the kind of monster Gacy was... "John Wayne Gacy (March 17, 1942 – May 10, 1994) also known as The Killer Clown, was an American serial killer. He was convicted and later executed for the rape and murder of 33 boys and young men between 1972 and his arrest in 1978, 27 of whom he buried in a crawl space under the floor of his house, while others were found in nearby rivers. He became notorious as the "Killer Clown" because of the many block parties he threw for his friends and neighbors, entertaining children in a clown suit and makeup, under the name of "Pogo the Clown." He was also in the Guinness Book of World Records for the longest sentence imposed on a mass murderer; he was given 21 consecutive life sentences and 12 death sentences." So, it would not surprise me that vpw could seem like a nice guy, a generous guy, friendly, even a pillar of the community. He would hardly be alone in this....

"You will unite or you will fall." "All shall love me and despair!" "I suppose you think that was terribly clever." "Fly, you fools." "If anyone was to ask for my opinion, which I note they're not, I'd say we were taking the long way around." " Throw yourself in next time, and rid us of your stupidity."

I'll answer this right after I get tired molesting this atomic pile over here.....

As to the original question asked here, I must say "No." I did once speak in tongues for a fellow who was Jewish. He found the particular cadences of the tongue I spoke in (which, like everything else about me, was unique and idiosyncratic) to remind him of certain worship that they did, basically chanting verses from the Torah. He demonstrated, and yes, they sounded like the same cadences (pacing, spaces, stressed syllables) but with completely different words, perhaps like comparing one Romance language with another. The things that convinced me more were instances involving "prophecy" or "interpretation." I'll say that much, but I've said before I'm not posting the specifics in cyberspace on them. They were more convincing FOR ME.

"You will unite or you will fall." "All shall love me and despair!"

If you mean "am I naive to just accept everything twi said about the Bible?" If that's what you mean, then, yes, you ARE naive. If you mean "Am I naive because I believe the Bible is God's Word?" That's a cornerstone (depending on how it's meant) of Christianity. Many survivors of twi read the Bible, think for themselves, and trust God. Sometimes they agree with something vpw said, ("Mary is the mother of Jesus"), and sometimes they don't ("what you believe, you receive.") Generally, you can find a Christian of nearly every opinion SOMEWHERE on this site. (Including the ones who think vpw was a nice guy.) If you believe the Bible, do like the Bereans. When they were taught, they searched the Scriptures daily, to see if what they were taught lined up with the Bible. Oh, and sometimes we can disagree but still respect each other, and sometimes we can overlook minor doctrinal differences in favor of the big picture. (Don't pretend they don't exist-just don't fixate on them, is all.)

Ok, time to move this along. This is "Iron Man", which is STILL in theaters in the US. I was referring to their song "I Am Iron Man".... If you saw the movie, this would probably have been a giveaway... This line appeared in most of the commercials.

I wanted this one for the other thread, but I couldn't find enough quotes.

That's it. "Paradise Lost." Some of the writers were disappointed the episode budget was too small-it meant they didn't have enough extras to get across the impression there were Starfleet all OVER the place. The preceeding episode was Grandpa Joe refusing blood-screenings, and nobody taking the threat seriously. Then there's a blackout, and Starfleet drops Security officers everywhere, and everyone's cooperating. That's where this episode begins. However, the blackout was engineered by Admiral Leyton, who did it to get people to agree with him. He had Red Squad do the blackout-which is why they weren't scared of what it meant. Also, the previous episode showed the Wormhole opening and closing, as if cloaked ships were passing through it. But that was design as well-and the Defiant was bringing the saboteur-who confessed-to Earth. Layton was willing to have the Lakota destroy the Defiant (if it could) to stop that. THIS script on that idea made sense, IMHO. There was at least one other where it didn't...

"Paradise has never seemed so...well-armed." "Are you sure re-opening the restaurant is a good idea?" "Jake, it's been four days since the power outage... have you seen any Dominion invasion fleet?" "No." "Neither have I." Besides, at my age, I don't have time to waste sitting at home being bored." "There's hardly anyone out on the street. You're not going to have any customers." "I've got plenty of customers. Just look outside." "All I see are security officers." "And I bet not one of them's had a good meal in four days. Now do your grandfather a favor... and start chopping the okra." "That's strange. During the blackout, Starfleet mobilized hundreds of units. Why would they have demobilized Red Squad?" "What can I do for you, sir?" "It's about Red Squad." "Red Squad? Did you get me in?" "Not just yet." "Too bad. Those guys are the best. They're the only people I know who aren't afraid of the Dominion." "Why's that?" "I don't know. They're not scared of anything, I guess." "Is this a secure line?" "It is at my end." "One moment. Sorry, Captain. But I think you'll agree, this is a time for caution." "Absolutely." "Does Admiral Leyton know about this report?" "He hasn't mentioned it to me." "Listen to me, Captain. I want that record erased before anyone else sees it. Is that understood?" "I'll take care of it immediately." "Good. That report could cause us a lot of trouble. I'm glad you spotted it." "So am I. I'd hate to see the members of Red Squad get into any trouble." "Are you sure this cadet is telling the truth?" "He admitted to committing acts of treason against the Federation. If he was going to lie, I think he would've come up with a better story." "You weren't so happy about being tested a few days ago." "That was before the changelings sabotaged the power grid." "I'm afraid I owe you an apology, Ben." "The way I see it, you owe a lot of people an apology." "I wish I could've told you the truth from the beginning. But somehow I suspected we wouldn't see eye-to-eye on this thing." "You're willing to destroy paradise in order to save it." "It looks like Leyton's been a busy man. He's personally reassigned over four hundred officers in the past three weeks." "Do you recognize any of these names?" "A lot of them. Daneeka, McWatt, Snowden, Orr, Moodus, they were all officers on the Okinawa when I was Leyton's X.O. As far as I can tell, every officer on this list served under Leyton at one time or another." "I've sent the Lakota to intercept the Defiant. " "Do you really think one Starfleet ship will fire on another?" "I wish I'd taught you more about the importance of loyalty." "You want to talk to me about loyalty? After you broke your oath to the Federation, lied to the people of Earth, and ordered one of our starships to fire on another? You don't have the right."

1 Timothy 3 "1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil." I Timothy 3 " 1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

"Paradise has never seemed so...well-armed." "There's hardly anyone out on the street. You're not going to have any customers." "I've got plenty of customers. Just look outside." "All I see are security officers." "And I bet not one of them's had a good meal in four days." "What can I do for you, sir?" "It's about Red Squad." "Red Squad? Did you get me in?" "Not just yet." "Too bad. Those guys are the best. They're the only people I know who aren't afraid of the Dominion." "Why's that?" "I don't know. They're not scared of anything, I guess." "Is this a secure line?" "It is at my end." "One moment. Sorry, Captain. But I think you'll agree, this is a time for caution." "Absolutely." "Does Admiral Leyton know about this report?" "He hasn't mentioned it to me." "Listen to me, Captain. I want that record erased before anyone else sees it. Is that understood?" "I'll take care of it immediately." "Good. That report could cause us a lot of trouble. I'm glad you spotted it." "So am I. I'd hate to see the members of Red Squad get into any trouble." "Are you sure this cadet is telling the truth?" "He admitted to committing acts of treason against the Federation. If he was going to lie, I think he would've come up with a better story." "I'm afraid I owe you an apology, Ben." "The way I see it, you owe a lot of people an apology." "I wish I could've told you the truth from the beginning. But somehow I suspected we wouldn't see eye-to-eye on this thing." "You're willing to destroy paradise in order to save it." "It looks like Leyton's been a busy man. He's personally reassigned over four hundred officers in the past three weeks." "Do you recognize any of these names?" "A lot of them. Daneeka, McWatt, Snowden, Orr, Moodus, they were all officers on the Okinawa when I was Leyton's X.O. As far as I can tell, every officer on this list served under Leyton at one time or another." "I've sent the Lakota to intercept the Defiant. " "Do you really think one Starfleet ship will fire on another?" "I wish I'd taught you more about the importance of loyalty." "You want to talk to me about loyalty? After you broke your oath to the Federation, lied to the people of Earth, and ordered one of our starships to fire on another? You don't have the right."

Close enough! The artist is correct- Meat Loaf. (Gordon Aday, but his driver's license says "Meat Loaf", I hear.) The title is "Paradise by the Dashboard Light." What a team on this one! Meat Loaf on vocals, Jim Steinman's lyrics, of course. Todd Rundgren on guitar, Max Weinberg on drums, Edgar Winter on saxophone. And, of course, featuring Scooter (Phil Rizzuto) as the radio announcer. Here's a link to the lyrics, for the curious: http://www.qgm.com/meatloaf/lyrics/paradise.html Here's the video of the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0ns8t9iQck BTW, Phil Rizzuto didn't seem to get the hang of how they wanted him to read. He was in the studio, and just reading the script matter-of-factly. They were there trying to explain, doing visuals by running and sliding into base, and finally, he said "Oh-you want me to read this like it's a play-by-play at a game." Of course-why ELSE would they call in a SPORTS ANNOUNCER in a ROCK SONG! :) Glad we could get this thread moving again...

*sprays George with a fire extinguisher*

"Ok, here we go, we got a real pressure cooker going here, two down, nobody on, no score, bottom of the ninth, there's the wind-up and there it is, a line shot up the middle, look at him go. This boy can really fly! He's rounding first and really turning it on now, he's not letting up at all, he's gonna try for second; the ball is bobbled out in center, and here comes the throw, and what a throw! He's gonna slide in head first, here he comes, he's out! No, wait, safe--safe at second base, this kid really makes things happen out there. Batter steps up to the plate, here's the pitch--he's going, and what a jump he's got, he's trying for third, here's the throw, it's in the dirt--safe at third! Holy cow, stolen base! He's taking a pretty big lead out there, almost daring him to try and pick him off. The pitcher glances over, winds up, and it's bunted, bunted down the third base line, the suicide squeeze is on! Here he comes, squeeze play, it's gonna be close, here's the throw, there's the play at the plate, holy cow, I think he's gonna make it....."

"Paradise has never seemed so...well-armed." "I've got plenty of customers. Just look outside." "What can I do for you, sir?" "It's about Red Squad." "Red Squad? Did you get me in?" "Not just yet." "Too bad. Those guys are the best. They're the only people I know who aren't afraid of the Dominion." "Why's that?" "I don't know. They're not scared of anything, I guess." "Is this a secure line?" "It is at my end." "One moment. Sorry, Captain. But I think you'll agree, this is a time for caution." "Absolutely." "Does Admiral Leyton know about this report?" "He hasn't mentioned it to me." "Listen to me, Captain. I want that record erased before anyone else sees it. Is that understood?" "I'll take care of it immediately." "Good. That report could cause us a lot of trouble. I'm glad you spotted it." "So am I. I'd hate to see the members of Red Squad get into any trouble." "Are you sure this cadet is telling the truth?" "He admitted to committing acts of treason against the Federation. If he was going to lie, I think he would've come up with a better story." "I'm afraid I owe you an apology, Ben." "The way I see it, you owe a lot of people an apology." "I wish I could've told you the truth from the beginning. But somehow I suspected we wouldn't see eye-to-eye on this thing."

"Paradise never seemed so well-armed." "I've got plenty of customers. Just look outside." "What can I do for you, sir?" "It's about Red Squad." "Red Squad? Did you get me in?" "Not just yet." "Too bad. Those guys are the best. They're the only people I know who aren't afraid of the Dominion." "Why's that?" "I don't know. They're not scared of anything, I guess." "Is this a secure line?" "It is at my end." "One moment. Sorry, Captain. But I think you'll agree, this is a time for caution." "Absolutely." "Does Admiral Leyton know about this report?" "He hasn't mentioned it to me." "Listen to me, Captain. I want that record erased before anyone else sees it. Is that understood?" "I'll take care of it immediately." "Good. That report could cause us a lot of trouble. I'm glad you spotted it." "So am I. I'd hate to see the members of Red Squad get into any trouble."

It seems you think this is "the Valiant." It is not.....

I don't know what she did, but I know Walter taught a class, "Fundamentals of Biblical Research." It was available on Beta, audiocassette, and VHS. (I don't have the Beta version, but I have the others.)

"Paradise never seemed so well-armed." "I've got plenty of customers. Just look outside." "What can I do for you, sir?" "It's about Red Squad." "Red Squad? Did you get me in?" "Not just yet." "Too bad. Those guys are the best. They're the only people I know who aren't afraid of the Dominion." "Why's that?" "I don't know. They're not scared of anything, I guess."

*continues blasting Black Sabbath and ignoring the round*

Walter did both. I took both. lcm later had "Dealing with the Adversary" redone in some short-lived form called "Our Spiritual Contest". This was in keeping with his "Athletes of the Spirit" paradigm he was pushing. I never heard much about it. (I don't know who taught it.) Sometime later, he came out with his own "Defeating the Adversary" class. Oh, and "Fundamentals of Biblical Research"-that was Walter.

It wouldn't surprise me. In honesty, lcm didn't report that these were specific ideas that vpw had that Harry put the skids under, just that they were ideas vpw had for the property. The accounts of Harry stopping vpw from off-the-wall ideas were separate from this. When I hear ideas like these, I think they're TYPICAL of the types of ideas Harry put a stop to. The one about the houses wasn't dependent upon Gunnison, however. Then again, Harry never stopped that idea, it just never took off. Few people wanted to donate a house to twi.