WordWolf

1:"Unfortunately, we've found there's little profit in trading with the Federation. In order to comply with your commerce laws, we've had to pay a series of taxes and fees that have made the cost of doing business with you too high." 2:"What sort of taxes and fees are you referring to?" 1:"For example... on a recent shipment of Karemman Fleece, a four percent surcharge was added to pay for inspecting the cargo for 'changeling infiltrators.'" 2:"What?" 3:"You never know where they might be hiding." 1:"Another three percent of the shipment's value was lost due to 'unforeseen' currency fluctuations." 3:"There was a run on the Bolian Credit Exchange... played havoc with the markets..." 1:"A six percent tariff was imposed to help offset the 'lost income of Tarkalian sheep herders.'" 3:"Hardworking people... you have to feel for them..." 1:"Should I go on, Captain... ?" 2:"No... I think you've made your point..." "Sensor range was limited, so we learned to use an old active-scan system to navigate." "It works by echo-location... we send out a modulated tetrion pulse, and if it reflects off the hull of a ship, we can approximate its location." "Won't these pulses give away our position as well?" "We'll have to alter course and speed after each one." "Helm, take us to a higher altitude." "We're gaining altitude..." "How can you tell?" "I've got the lobes..." "You've got them, too. It's a Ferengi expression. Usually, when we say someone has "the lobes," we mean they have a keen business sense. That's you. I'll admit it. You fooled me. I thought you were just another easy mark. But you saw right through my little scam, and taught me a thing or two about doing business in the Gamma Quadrant. I guess I've gotten lazy. I'm used to dealing with the Federation. You think I was cheating you, you have no idea what I was doing to them. They still haven't caught on. And if someone like me can put one over on them, think of what someone like you could do." "Someone with my... lobes?" "Exactly. And I'm just the man to help you do it. we could become rich, rich beyond our dreams." "You... are despicable." I hate the Gamma Quadrant... " "... but then the brothers started to argue about how to divide the money they got for the kava root. The oldest said that since it was his idea to bring it to the city, he should get more. The youngest objected, saying he was the one who'd tended the field where... " "One of these diodes connects the warhead to the power source... the other is the firing mechanism." "How do you know that?" "I saw a design schematic once." "Where?" "At the Ministry of Trade on Karemma. We sell these torpedoes to the Jem'Hadar." "You're kidding." "No." "I thought you said you'd never sold substandard merchandise... It was supposed to explode on impact, wasn't it?" "Maybe I should offer them a refund..." "How do you feel?" "Terrible..." "That's not surprising considering that you took in a few lungfuls of Fluorine." "Next time remind me to hold my breath...I take it we're stuck in here..."

Actually, the most conservative numbers of the deaths of the Holocaust generally place the totals at 9 million-11 million currently, with one more general estimate as 17 million, and one measure in 1946 in France counted the body count at 26 million. In each of these numbers, Jews make up the largest percentage, with numbers as low as 5 million (only counting those who can be confirmed as having been Jews who were killed there and were confirmed so), and most go higher (admitting records don't account for all the Jews killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust Meanwhile, WTH's link is to Faurisson, who denied the gas chambers were there and that gas chambers were used to kill Jews. We've already heard from eyewitness accounts of them here, so I don't think we need to debunk that any further, but we could. Besides, the claims of those who wish to pretend the Holocaust didn't happen have already been addressed in great detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial ========== Holocaust Denial- the Refuge of the Happily Undereducated.

I know it's popular with a few people to consistently mischaracterize most of us and claim we said nothing in twi was any good, but that doesn't mean we ever said that. Very few posters ever claimed such a position. It's that the bad was SO bad, in specific ways, that we consider any possible GAIN to be not worth the exposure- in hindsight, and think the gains could have been received in much less adulterated fashions.

Point of information: Nebuchadnezzar wasn't "changed into a beast", he was given what I call a "feral lobotomy." His body stayed the same, but his intellect was sent on a 7-year vacation.

Got to suggest the Day of Pentecost is some sort of repeatable incident, and not unique in history, just to try to hang onto your practice. Part of me admires that kind of persistence even in the face of reason. Interesting how you can even look at verses in I Corinthians 14 and still say there's no basis for saying this was not supposed to be policy. I Corinthians 14:26-28 26What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation Let all things be done for edification. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. Of course, one may consider oneself so spiritual that they can disregard I Corinthians 14, since they have a pipeline to God Almighty. However.... I Corinthians 14:37-40. 37If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. 38But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. Hey, that might well be one reason the Corinthians were doing it wrong- they may have mistaken the Pentecost incident for a normative experience, and that's why Paul had to tell them "don't do it this way." Because he DID tell them "don't do it this way", as almost all of us can see without difficulty. You guys are just grasping at any straw that will allow you to defend vp. vp claimed it was supported by Scripture, but we actually looked at ALL the verses, and saw it wasn't so.... you began by assuming he was correct and did your best to hide from verses that showed he was incorrect. When are you going to come to The Word of God and stop elevating the word of vpw over it?

Not really, but since you asked nicely, I'll give it a shot. A centrifuge spins. The purpose OF a centrifuge is to use the force of the spinning to separate substances. If you had, say, water with several kinds of sand and clay mixed into it, placing the mixture in a centrifuge would separate them, with the densest to the "bottom" (the outside of the spin), and each of the others in a layer, in order of density, separating all of them from the water. Then each is now all of one thing, whether sand, or clay, or water, and can be addressed apart from the others. If one left the container sitting out for very, very long periods of time, gravity might separate them as well-but the wait is very, very long. As I considered the end-times, it occurred to me that they function as an intensification of the process by which souls determine their orientation, whether towards God or away from God. The process will be compressed in something like a 7-year timeframe. That's a life's decisions and actions squeezed into 7 years. That's why I considered it like a centrifuge. It will speed up the process, and do what was already happening- just a lot slower. As you can see, the same process, just a lot slower- happens day by day, decision by decision, right now.

I've long concluded that the "End-Times"- the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation- will function as a sort of "centrifuge". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifuge A centrifuge uses centripetal force to separate out various substances of varying density. Although the "End-Times" are "concentrated", it really hit me now that the same process operates NOW, just a LOT slower.

This is a good thread to see how many posters are willing to try to discredit verses or distract from them to try to remove their applicability to vpw and others. So posters, please post your true feelings. Too bad.

We have "false teachers" TEACHING SENSUALITY- to follow lusts and deeds of the flesh, greed and exploitation of Christians to whom they lied. We have those who have trained their hearts to greed. They served their appetites, and SIN. They taught "we're free and not under law", and used that as an EXCUSE to SIN unreservedly, and TEACH OTHERS TO SIN. They despised God's counsel. They taught others to perform immoral acts. Now, on the other hand, we had vpw......

II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.) "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep." -------------- [God warned that false prophets AND false teachers would come, and introduce "destructive heresies" secretly. They would teach (by action and lesson) SENSUALITY- a following-after of lusts and the deeds of the flesh. Their GREED was the motive for EXPLOITING CHRISTIANS, and why they lied to them.] 12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; [Animals operate primarily from instinct. They don't really REASON, or deal in abstractions. Humans were granted reason to make their own decisions. Humans have no excuse when they choose to embrace instincts. Some humans have chosen to sin in the daytime. That's one thing, but here, WORSE is being spoken of- these chronic, voluntary sinners choose to DECEIVE and pretend they are fine, upstanding leaders- with small exceptions for when they're interacting with their fellow Christians.] ---------------- 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. 17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. ======= [balaam was a prophet of God, and was supposed to SERVE GOD. Instead Balaam served his appetites, Balaam served SIN. Balaam loved MONEY, and exhibited MADNESS over it. He really, really loved money. None of us dislike it, but this man was willing to practice idolatry over it. People like him are haughty and full of self-pride, and teach others to sin and follow lusts. They speak of FREEDOM, even FREEDOM and LIBERTY IN CHRIST, while serving sin wholeheartedly.] ========= Jude 3-11 3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. [We're being warned that among the Christians, some UNGODLY people have turned God's GRACE- and the freedoms under Christ- and made them an EXCUSE TO SIN.] 5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" ========= [This is serious stuff. God's putting these guys in the same category as Sodom and Gomorrah.] === 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. [There's the connection to Balaam again. They are envious and despise God's counsel like Cain, and money produced an idolatry like with Balaam.] ========= Revelation 2:13-15. 13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. ----- [balaam wasn't just out for MONEY. (Balaam wasn't a sinner for one long, greedy weekend. He was weak of character besides that. Balaam taught Israel to perform idolatry and IMMORAL ACTS. I bet there was money in it for him to do that....] Do these warnings remind anyone of anyone?

II Peter 2:1-3, 12- (NASB unless otherwise specified.) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. -------------- 12But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; 16but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet. 17These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. 18For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 19promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. 20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. Jude 3-11 3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. Revelation 2:13-15. 13'I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. -----

It's come up that if God's perception is limited strictly to the present- as some have suggested- then all He can offer is a general hope that everything turns out all right. (No, it's not been posted ON THIS THREAD, but I've read this suggested.) God gives prophecies of things to come. If God is not already aware of them definitely coming to pass when He issues them, then He's deceiving people by leading them to believe He's giving them 100% reliable information. I trust none of us here would suggest that God DOESN'T know a prophecy will come to pass when He issues it. The promise in Genesis 3:15 is one of the most famous ones, and it was about 4000 years (more or less) after it was issued, perhaps, when it came to pass. If God ONLY knew things 4000 years in the future, I'd find that a little silly. He PARTIALLY knows the future? He PARTLY knows the end from the beginning? That would be injecting opinion- or, as vpw called it, "private interpretation." We trust God 100%, or we SHOULD. God knows the future, and gives prophecies. We can trust them 100%. It's been noted that the God who doesn't know the future is a more accessible God, perhaps a more "warm and fuzzy" God because He's in the same boat as the rest of us- He doesn't know what's going to happen any more than WE do. He can comfort us, but not offer us security or confidence. In short, trading "God is Loving" (which they embrace) for "God is All-Powerful" (which they reject.) I can empathize with those seeking answers while rejecting their impassioned attempt to find answers as having sought the WRONG answers. No, I think that was entirely on-topic.

"Police Squad"?

I've never heard the NAME "Idiocracy" before.

How ridiculous your logic is: the day of Pentecost was a SPECIAL CASE, and no verse exists to indicate- either in Acts or elsewhere- that this was meant to ever be repeated. Hello. I Corinthians 14:23, 27, 28, 40. 23Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 40But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner. ====== Those believers were together and all of them spoke in tongues at the same time. They were PRACTICING ERROR. I agree. This is also the ONLY instructions concerning speaking in tongues when Christians aren't alone. Finding pretext to disregard them is NOT based on a verse of Scripture. It is, as vpw would have called it, "private interpretation." ======== As to "a black cloud coming into the room as soon as the fourth person spoke", Paul certainly would have pointed out that this crude caricature wouldn't happen- but that doesn't mean it wasn't a bad idea and not to be done- and certainly not to be made a POLICY. If Corinthians was correcting PRACTICAL error, they were already DOING THIS and Paul was instructed to tell them to STOP. As well live in Corinth, read this, and conclude that the absence of a "black cloud" meant Paul was wrong. WHEN Scripture says something's not to be done,it's unScriptural to say the opposite. Like when some verses say to only have sex with one's spouse, and someone tells other people that God wouldn't mind for them to commit adultery with them, or that orgies are permitted by God but not "best." Or when an Epistle says not to do something, and excuses are found to do it anyway.

twi never seems to give a straight answer on lcm's status. He WAS fired and kicked off grounds. Whenever that happened to everyone else, they were denied any connection to twi, their FAMILY was kicked out and off grounds, and of course no support was ever given. Oh, and their reputation was smeared. With lcm, of course, this is all different. People aren't even allowed to ASK QUESTIONS about him- and asking will draw twi's ire on the questioner. lcm's family is still on grounds, supported by twi and Donna's paycheck exceeds SOME OF THE VPs. Not bad for not really having a job. twi quietly still supports lcm. He's lived in twi-owned houses, and nobody's answering if he's getting any money from them. Of course, since twi's pretty much guaranteed he doesn't need to pay alimony and is supporting his family, that ALONE is considerable support.

"... but then the brothers started to argue about how to divide the money they got for the kava root. The oldest said that since it was his idea to bring it to the city, he should get more. The youngest objected, saying he was the one who'd tended the field where... " "One of these diodes connects the warhead to the power source... the other is the firing mechanism." "How do you know that?" "I saw a design schematic once." "Where?" "At the Ministry of Trade on Karemma. We sell these torpedoes to the Jem'Hadar." "You're kidding." "No." "I thought you said you'd never sold substandard merchandise... It was supposed to explode on impact, wasn't it?" "Maybe I should offer them a refund..."

For one thing, the claim that Holocaust deniers approach things in a fashion even vaguely approaching logical.

Oh, and for the benefit of those (or one) who don't see the benefit of it, I'm going to ask a slightly self-serving question. Are others of you appreciating my posts on this thread to date? The ones about what God knows, of course, not the ones about rudeness. If you are, please say so.

So it's their OPINIONS that there would have BEEN no 9/11 attacks if the US didn't support Israel. So, it's disapproval that the US has Israel as an ally and supports it that gives Holocaust denial its appeal? They're angry about Israel as an ally so they rewrite history in retaliation, or to vent?

Actually, I've posted some things, and others have posted some things. In some things, we've agreed, and in some we have not. We call that "discussion." Personally, I'd prefer more posting at the moment from the others, but I am responding to what they posted, and they are responding to my posts. We STILL call that "discussion." If my posts-which ARE including the verses- are too long for your taste, sorry, you won't find my posts to your taste. They ARE perfectly serviceable posts, and OTHERS are gaining benefits from them. My posts ARE appreciated by others, and if you really cared about the topic, you might receive benefits from them, especially since I answered a number of your questions. As for you, you've been a veritable one-note orchestra for several pages. If that's not "soap-boxing", then nothing is. If you don't understand that, then YOU'LL get nowhere in this discussion. You'll waste the time of the posters, and gain little or nothing from what IS posted. Actually, once or twice is "reminding." The systematic reposting of the same thing over and over with no other posting is "spamming." I had responded to you and said I WILL get back to you eventually, and you insisted on repeating the question ad nauseum. That's not "reminding". I've given this some thought, and I've made the following conclusion. I actually was done with page 3, didn't see anything I needed to respond to on page 4, and was thus next to approach page 5, and your original question. So, I was GOING to address it DIRECTLY. (I've addressed its subject already, but not phrased as a direct answer to you.) However, I've considered, and I find the continual hectoring to be discouraged. If I respond to what's acknowledged to be only there to be a TRAP, I don't give benefit to the other posters. I MIGHT be able to teach you something. However, at this point, I'd be rewarding you for poor manners, and I see no benefit for anyone to do that. So, I will not be addressing your question after all. That's a specific change of mind as the direct result of the poor manners you've evidenced the past few pages. (In other words, if you had not been so persistent in rudeness, I WOULD have addressed it, and have reconsidered DIRECTLY because you did so.) I can't control your posts, neither of content, intent or style. I don't, however, have to ENCOURAGE your posts or anyone elses, especially when I see poor behaviour. I don't wish to encourage it, and you can't FORCE me to post to your satisfaction either. I asked you nicely to exercise common courtesy. You refused. You DEMANDED-repeatedly- I answer your question. I am NOW refusing. You are free to throw a tantrum over it all you want. It's NOT going to benefit the other posters, however, and they'll hardly welcome it. If you want to make a SPECIFIC on Moses and the overseers, feel free. If you're going to play coy, then feel free as well. I'd address a SPECIFIC, but not grammar-school games. (You are free to throw a tantrum over THAT as well.) Actually, we WERE going to see a post on it (one post is not a discussion, posts from several people are a discussion) on it within the last 24 hours. Now we won't be seeing one.

Your post "quoting" mine had nothing to do with my post. I'm still proceeding forwards in the thread. I've completed my review of page 3. I don't address page 5 while addressing page 3. I also am not eager to address anything someone intentionally introduced- by their own admission- specifically TO TRAP ME. If you want me to address this question, you might try "patience" and "waiting until I get there." It works GREAT for everyone else. I even addressed one of your EARLIER questions just now. If you asked because you CARED ABOUT THE ANSWER, you might appreciate it. If, however, you asked it only to "score points", then you might NOT appreciate it. And you did it again. Honestly, I'm currently under the impression that your SOLE REASON for participating in what's OTHERWISE a nice discussion about God's Knowledge is to lay traps and see who you can have fall in them. Since your posts have COMPLETELY FIXATED on one ADMITTED trap for the past FEW PAGES and tantrums that no one's fallen into it, I don't see any other LOGICAL conclusion.

Continuing in I Samuel... I Samuel 8:22. "22The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to their voice and appoint them a king." So Samuel said to the men of Israel, "Go every man to his city." I Samuel 9:15-17 15Now a day before Saul's coming, the LORD had revealed this to Samuel saying, 16"About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him to be prince over My people Israel; and he will deliver My people from the hand of the Philistines For I have regarded My people, because their cry has come to Me." 17When Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said to him, "Behold, the man of whom I spoke to you! This one shall rule over My people." God has Samuel anoint Saul as king, then has the nation assemble for the announcement. I Samuel 10:17-27 17Thereafter Samuel called the people together to the LORD at Mizpah; 18and he said to the sons of Israel, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'I brought Israel up from Egypt, and I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the power of all the kingdoms that were oppressing you.' 19"But you have today rejected your God, who delivers you from all your calamities and your distresses; yet you have said, 'No, but set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes and by your clans." 20Thus Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, and the tribe of Benjamin was taken by lot. 21Then he brought the tribe of Benjamin near by its families, and the Matrite family was taken. And Saul the son of Kish was taken; but when they looked for him, he could not be found. 22Therefore they inquired further of the LORD, "Has the man come here yet?" So the LORD said, "Behold, he is hiding himself by the baggage." 23So they ran and took him from there, and when he stood among the people, he was taller than any of the people from his shoulders upward. 24Samuel said to all the people, "Do you see him whom the LORD has chosen? Surely there is no one like him among all the people " So all the people shouted and said, "Long live the king!" 25Then Samuel told the people the ordinances of the kingdom, and wrote them in the book and placed it before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, each one to his house. 26Saul also went to his house at Gibeah; and the valiant men whose hearts God had touched went with him. 27But certain worthless men said, "How can this one deliver us?" And they despised him and did not bring him any present. But he kept silent. God made it clear this was the best of the options they had chosen to limit themselves to. And Saul was really tall, and looked like a king. Probably looked vigorous, a fighter-type. We do know later they said he slew "thousands" and this went over, so I think he DID look the fighting type. Was Saul always giving WISE decisions? Well.... I Samuel 14:24-30 24Now the men of Israel were hard-pressed on that day, for Saul had put the people under oath, saying, "Cursed be the man who eats food before evening, and until I have avenged myself on my enemies." So none of the people tasted food. 25All the people of the land entered the forest, and there was honey on the ground. 26When the people entered the forest, behold, there was a flow of honey; but no man put his hand to his mouth, for the people feared the oath. 27But Jonathan had not heard when his father put the people under oath; therefore, he put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and dipped it in the honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth, and his eyes brightened. 28Then one of the people said, "Your father strictly put the people under oath, saying, 'Cursed be the man who eats food today.'" And the people were weary. 29Then Jonathan said, "My father has troubled the land. See now, how my eyes have brightened because I tasted a little of this honey. 30"How much more, if only the people had eaten freely today of the spoil of their enemies which they found! For now the slaughter among the Philistines has not been great." His own son knew that it was dramatic, but stupid, and hampered the people. Fighting means you need food and sleep. Depriving soldiers of either is to hobble them in combat. Let's skip over the incident with Amalek and Saul's disobedience in that one, and God selecting David as Saul's replacement. I Samuel 17:1- 1Now the Philistines gathered their armies for battle; and they were gathered at Socoh which belongs to Judah, and they camped between Socoh and Azekah, in Ephes-dammim. 2Saul and the men of Israel were gathered and camped in the valley of Elah, and drew up in battle array to encounter the Philistines. 3The Philistines stood on the mountain on one side while Israel stood on the mountain on the other side, with the valley between them. 4Then a champion came out from the armies of the Philistines named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. 5He had a bronze helmet on his head, and he was clothed with scale-armor which weighed five thousand shekels of bronze. 6He also had bronze greaves on his legs and a bronze javelin slung between his shoulders. 7The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and the head of his spear weighed six hundred shekels of iron; his shield-carrier also walked before him. 8He stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel and said to them, "Why do you come out to draw up in battle array? Am I not the Philistine and you servants of Saul? Choose a man for yourselves and let him come down to me. 9"If he is able to fight with me and kill me, then we will become your servants; but if I prevail against him and kill him, then you shall become our servants and serve us." 10Again the Philistine said, "I defy the ranks of Israel this day; give me a man that we may fight together." 11When Saul and all Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid. Now, Israel really needs a CHAMPION. They need a really BIG guy, one who can GO FIGHT THEIR BATTLES. Do they have such a guy? *coughSaulcough* Well, Saul-who the people wanted SPECIFICALLY for this, was busy being afraid. That's how David ended up getting tapped for the job. I'll skip the details, you all know where to find them. ========= Hm. I skipped the verse where the original question was raised. I Samuel 15:10-11 "10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, 11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night." Looks like we have to look over the Amalek incident after all. I Samuel 15:1-11 1Then Samuel said to Saul, "The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" 4Then Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, 200,000 foot soldiers and 10,000 men of Judah. 5Saul came to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the valley. 6Saul said to the Kenites, "Go, depart, go down from among the Amalekites, so that I do not destroy you with them; for you showed kindness to all the sons of Israel when they came up from Egypt." So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7So Saul defeated the Amalekites, from Havilah as you go to Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8He captured Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed. 10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, 11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night. Saul made the deliberate decision to disobey God as soon as he found it convenient. Then God said he regretted making Saul the king. Did God know Saul would do this before making Saul king? Yes- God even warned the people this would happen. Did God regret making Saul king anyway? Yes-He JUST said so right here. Does this pose a problem? Not to God, nor to Scripture. Thus, if there IS a problem, it's in our UNDERSTANDING, and we need to adjust our understanding to match Scripture. God knew long before that this was coming, and He didn't like it. He elected to allow the people their choice, stupid though it was, warned them-and they disregarded that, and minimized the damage-by giving them the least-disastrous choice of king. (ANY choice was bad, God found the least-bad.) God STILL didn't have to LIKE any of that. Since He allowed people the chance to make their freewill decisions, He put up with it ANYWAY. Let's also not ignore the context.... I Samuel 15:10-12. 10Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel, saying, 11"I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not carried out My commands " And Samuel was distressed and cried out to the LORD all night. 12Samuel rose early in the morning to meet Saul; and it was told Samuel, saying, "Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself, then turned and proceeded on down to Gilgal." God, at the time, was telling Samuel that Samuel needed to confront Saul over his transgressions. He began by telling Samuel that He regretted making Saul king. (Didn't say He didn't see it coming- He just said He regretted it.) God COULD have told Samuel, specifically, that this would be the incident that Samuel would need to deal with eventually- if He wanted to show off. Instead, He lets Samuel (and Saul and the nation) to interact in a linear fashion like everyone else. In doing so, He allowed them to interact and exercise their free will entirely.