WordWolf

Some people here MAY have heard him say that aloud. However, a number of people heard him say that and leave the specifics VAGUE. vpw was an expert at covering his tracks, and having a message that was heard ONE way from most people, and ANOTHER way from the minority. vpw DID set up a sort of "inner circle" of people who were complicit in his rapes and molestations- from singling out women and sending them to him, to watching and "counseling" them so they didn't tell the cops or anyone else. Some of those people have come forth. (Check the archives.) Some of his victims-and INTENDED victims-have come forth and spoken of the "inner circle" doctrine of "the lockbox". Never heard of that? Neither did I. It was never in an official teaching at an SNS, nor in a book nor class nor wayrag article. It WAS, however, taught word-of-mouth by vpw and selected people in his circle. First rule of vpw's sex club was 'do not talk about vpw's sex club.' vpw made it sound like knowing all this was a special privilege- like you were a mature, special Christian who "could handle it" if you were ever told of it. Feel free to look up "lockbox" for all sorts of discussions on the same. ========== If you go over the oldest of the old SNT tapes, you may find some strange things here and there. I was reviewing someone else's old vpw tapes once, and found a peculiar sentence from vpw. He was reviewing the account of Joseph refusing to have sex with Potiphar's wife when she threw herself at him. I've heard a number of people talk about what Joseph was thinking and feeling, over the years, on the subject, whether twi, ex-twi, never-been-twi, who-is-twi. Out of all of them, vpw was the only one who used the word "erection" when speaking of it. ("It doesn't say that Joseph didn't have an E-rection when he left.") Everyone else seemed to think that the subject should be approached at least a little more tactfully or reluctantly. One of the few people living who seem to completely WORSHIP vpw looked into his personal history, and HIMSELF said of his IDOL that he had a habit of introducing inappropriate things into his sermons, which embarassed the person whom he was interviewing ABOUT vpw-who at the time was a fan of vpw. So, his FANS admit that he kept bringing up sex in the pulpit. After reviewing the "lockbox" and how there was an inner circle of people who were privy to the secret sex doctrines, if you still want to believe there is a "reasonable doubt" that vpw did NOT mean lcm needed to "loosen up sexually" when he said he needed to "loosen up", that's your business. vpw seemed obsessed by it at times. Another example: before lcm ever married or courted dlm, care to guess who'd slept with her? The answer is not lcm... That was reported by posters here who knew all the participants....

Most of us (those who aren't vpw apologists/defenders) have come to similar conclusions. What I would say is: The evils that vpw did do NOT negate the good experiences and good memories you have. HOWEVER, they add CONTEXT and DETAIL to them. Those of us without any bad memories of the time received them, true- but at the expense of those who DID have bad experiences. I would not say you never had good times. Some of those good times were due entirely to wonderful people that are still wonderful people. Contrary to advertising, they were so before pfal and remained so after pfal. I wouldn't say forget them all. They are part of who and what you are. But, just as good times can't erase the evil vpw did, neither can his evil erase the good you experienced.

And there we have it. Pressing on gets applause from Oldiesman. The worth of the action gets NO MENTION. Whether, even, the action is good or evil gets NO MENTION. Whether it is smarter to return, reassess, retool, and try again later gets NO MENTION- and in fact, would be heartily discouraged. Press on-no matter what! ===== Here's a story for you. The Light Brigade of the song was a "light" infantry unit. That means they're good for fast actions, but not pitched combat like a "heavy" unit. They were given orders to advance upon the enemy by travelling thru the valley. The opposite end of the valley was the high ground, occupied by enemy ARTILLERY. That's the stuff that blows stuff up. It was pointed at the valley. The sides of the valley were also occupied by the enemy, specifically the enemy ARTILLERY. This is what's referred to as a "killing field"- passing thru it is a huge invitation to be blown to bits by lots of cannon. Chances of survival in a killing field: not so good. Odds of success associated with passing thru a killing field THEN engaging the enemy with the survivors: slim to none. Anyone should be able to see why it's a STUPID idea to just take a bunch of guys with swords and run them thru a gauntlet of cannons blowing them up, to engage the rested fighters on the other side after running thru the gauntlet. However, this was a fine example of "don't think-just follow orders." Don't evaluate the situation and see if this is a SMART or EFFECTIVE thing to do- just go out and do it with everything you've got. So, they did. And the enemy blew the cr@p out of them. And they lost the battle. Big surprise. Alfred Lord Tennyson immortalized the account, and a sentiment OM has already endorsed ends it. The Charge of the Light Brigade Alfred, Lord Tennyson "1. Half a league, half a league, Half a league onward, All in the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. "Forward, the Light Brigade! "Charge for the guns!" he said: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. 2. "Forward, the Light Brigade!" Was there a man dismay'd? Not tho' the soldier knew Someone had blunder'd: Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do and die: Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred. 3. Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell Rode the six hundred. 4. Flash'd all their sabres bare, Flash'd as they turn'd in air, Sabring the gunners there, Charging an army, while All the world wonder'd: Plunged in the battery-smoke Right thro' the line they broke; Cossack and Russian Reel'd from the sabre stroke Shatter'd and sunder'd. Then they rode back, but not Not the six hundred. 5. Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon behind them Volley'd and thunder'd; Storm'd at with shot and shell, While horse and hero fell, They that had fought so well Came thro' the jaws of Death Back from the mouth of Hell, All that was left of them, Left of six hundred. 6. When can their glory fade? O the wild charge they made! All the world wondered. Honor the charge they made, Honor the Light Brigade, Noble six hundred."

No sh*, Sherlock. The initial design was made with intent to be used. I'm not running a program NOW because no one's beating down my door to sign up for one. Maybe if I snowed a bunch of youngsters and convinced them I and I alone had a UNIQUE and SPECIAL knowledge, then I'd get demand. We all know it worked GREAT for vpw.... I reserve my thumbs-up for those whose action was CORRECT.NO thumbs up for leaders who raped and molested the followers- although technically that qualified as "action." NO thumbs up for stealing the work of others and passing it off as your own- although technically that qualified as "action." NO thumbs up for ANY corrupt leader of ANY kind in ANY organization- no matter how much "action" they take. Of course not- the policeman who arrests the criminal counts, and the whistleblower who exposed the danger and evil counts, and the one who warned the others not to leap into danger counts but NOT the critic.

Oldiesman: George Aar: Oldies again: WordWolf now: So, then, you witness for your cooperative unit or for BOD candidates, but NOT for the greatness of God's Word? You allow yourself the challenge of going door-to-door for them but not God? What happened to the courage of your convictions? It's good enough for temporal things but not eternal things?

Were the expectations of the corps clear and consistent? Well, let's hear from some participants... GrouchoMarxJr: Skyrider replied Skyrider also said And again Shazdancer said Igotout explained Were these inconsistent expectations FAIR? Let's here from lcm himself, about how vpw ran the show.... Follow the money in THIS story from lcm.... Funny- paperwork for the corps never said "notetaking is mandatory for all sessions"...Oakspear summed this all up.

Frankly, since you asked, the program was instituted poorly and on a whim, was designed by a few people with NO training nor experience with training programs, was designed far too quickly (especially for people with no skill at such), was executed poorly, and was NEVER evaluated with a view towards redesigning it with improvements. That it was MADE to work for many participants (many people came out and managed to gain benefit while in it) is a testimony to many participants and many staff. The WORST program can be MADE to work by SOMEBODY, and the BEST program will never be 100% effective. Therefore, it should never have been instituted in the first place. If it was GOING to be set up, it should have been designed completely differently, by people with experience, training and skill. (In short, not vpw, who designed this one mostly single-handedly and added some stuff later with the input of a few.) That having been said, Yes, I PERSONALLY could design a program superior in most (or all) ways. I will not POST such advice because I don't put a loaded pistol in the hands of a toddler, and I don't tell twi how to improve fleecing people. Feel free to disbelief me on being able to design better. (Frankly, I DID design better once, and I could vastly improve on the process NOW.)

Here's how the "requirements" and "committment" process went for the average corps person.... If you hadn't taken pfal, you were leaned on to take pfal. If you had taken pfal but not the intermediate, you were leaned on to take pfal. If you had taken the intermediate but not the advanced, you were leaned on to take the advanced. If you completed the advanced, you were leaned on to go wow. If you finished wow AND the advanced (either order), you were leaned on to go corps. What if you didn't go corps? Well, then the subject is dropped-today. Tomorrow it will come up again. And the next day. In short, once you showed up, you were on either the fast track or the slow track to going corps and thus, hitchhiking and going to LEAD. The slow track: you were never a viable candidate for the corps, so you'll be sold as many classes as possible, and that you can be talked into. The fast track: you're the right age for the corps. You will now be leaned on first to take all classes, THEN to go corps. To NOT go corps means you'll have to make the deliberate decision NOT to go at some point, and steadfastly maintain it from then on, and ignore anything said about you from then on. The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase "You can stay as long as your money holds!" After that, people were released from the corps only on 2 conditions: A) they became a financial or legal liability or B) vpw got into a mood and kicked them out or their entire class out For a program touted as highly as the way corps was, it was ill-conceived, ill-prepared, and ill-executed, and ill-screened. Diligence and consideration SHOULD have been part of each step. The only things we saw "diligence" in (mostly) were "is your money on time?" and "I read your 'birth to the corps' paper." So, you were fairly well swept along by the process unless you made a deliberate effort to stop. Otherwise, you'd be talked into the next step and the next, eventually ending up in the corps unless you had a compelling reason NOT to be there. That's the OPPOSITE of how MOST groups train and select leaders, and find candidates for what is supposedly an ELITE program. And what if you changed your mind? doojable: rhino (ex-corps) on the "screening process":

See, there's big differences between at least 3 different things, and someone-for reasons they keep avoiding- keeps trying to say the 3 things are nearly identical, whereas their differences often strike at the heart of the discussion. For example: There ARE orders where Christians make lifelong commitments to go where they are told to go, serve where they are told to serve, and leave when they are told to leave. Those are referred to by many names, among them Holy Orders, the Priesthood, and so on. Now, THOSE people don't just make ONE decision to enter one program and now they're the property of the organization. (No matter WHAT you were told.) They receive training, and counseling. They are questioned as to their commitment and reasoning. They receive more training, and are REQUIRED to meditate upon, and consider deeply, over and over, the consequences of their decision. It is FAR better for the organization to lose 90% of their candidates than for them to place unstable, corrupt people in all their offices. Those that decide to go ahead swear their oaths, and leave modern society, in a sense. THEY'VE sworn oaths of poverty and chastity and stuff I don't know about because I've never sworn their oaths. Now, THEY signed up for a lifetime serving their organization. Clear. Unambiguous. Everything spelled out for YEARS long before they sign up. THEIR programs don't get the participants raped or killed. They actually CARE when someone gets hurt during the process. Mark! Can you give us something about what goes into THAT? I'd bet my life it's more than "pay us money" "sign your name" "write out your biography" and then you're committed to 4 years of involuntary servitude that you PAID FOR, followed by a lifetime where you must obey our whims whenever we declare them...

WordWolf: Oldiesman: Since your answer to that one is "the leader is completely blameless" "go ahead and do that again anytime, that's fine", then either the RESULTS don't matter (participants being raped or killed doesn't matter) or the PEOPLE don't matter (anything making them unuseable is a mathematical consideration) Either way, nearly every thinking person would disagree with you. I can't think of ANYONE who would expect that program to continue, and the leader to not get into LEGAL trouble. =========================== doojable: Oldiesman: "I just think they were following a different path." This path involved considering people raped and killed as "the cost of doing business." Unusual path in the United States... "I think they looked at these incidents as the adversary ripping us off, and saying "we aren't stopping our training program because we do not admit defeat to the adversary." If they stopped hitchhiking, they would be admitting that the adversary won in that situation and stopped the corps from training individuals to abandon their fear of hitchhiking and confidence building" Or they could find a way for people to confront fear and increase confidence WITHOUT making rape and murder an expected consequence for some. But- if they did that, it would cost money. Hitchhiking was $0.00.... "As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time." "As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time." "As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time." That was worth repeating. There we have it. We bought into it then. Therefore-although 20/20 hindsight makes it look crazy- I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT. We bought into it then. Anything we bought into then was perfectly fine-never having ANY EVIL. No matter how clear it looks now with more information, or maturity, or any other information enlightens us. We did it then, we had good intentions == it was perfectly fine. Had a problem with it THEN-you were a coward and lacked committment. Have a problem with it NOW-you're "thinking evil". Interesting personal philosophy. Forgive us for not lining up to join your church.

Thank you for finding the right threads. Hm. This is going to take a bit of time....

I wanted to put this together on the same post, because it's part of the same set of policies and practices. (No matter what one or 2 people say.) WordWolf: In short, once you showed up, you were on either the fast track or the slow track to going corps and thus, hitchhiking and going to LEAD. The slow track: you were never a viable candidate for the corps, so you'll be sold as many classes as possible, and that you can be talked into. The fast track: you're the right age for the corps. You will now be leaned on first to take all classes, THEN to go corps. To NOT go corps means you'll have to make the deliberate decision NOT to go at some point, and steadfastly maintain it from then on, and ignore anything said about you from then on. The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase "You can stay as long as your money holds!" After that, people were released from the corps only on 2 conditions: A) they became a financial or legal liability or B) vpw got into a mood and kicked them out or their entire class out For a program touted as highly as the way corps was, it was ill-conceived, ill-prepared, and ill-executed, and ill-screened. Diligence and consideration SHOULD have been part of each step. The only things we saw "diligence" in (mostly) were "is your money on time?" and "I read your 'birth to the corps' paper."

That has been brought up before, but it helps to show new people and different people all keep coming to the same conclusion. He took part of what TOTW said. When you remove PART of what TOTW said,do you still have the word of TOTW? Well, SOME people will see the point clearly. Some others will see someone outlining their "defense", and see how it miserably fails to make sense in the face of sensible discussion, and how slapping labels on things does not change the substance of them. (Even vpw said that putting the label 'apple-butter' on a jar of pickles does not change the pickles on the inside.) So, the lurkers have a chance to "get it" even without posting, because their positions have already been represented-and shot down.

Same answer can be applied to the following.... A leader gathers all the wows in the state together. He announces a massive witnessing campaign for "the people who need it the most." He sends dozens of wows into housing projects to speak God's Word. By morning, several have emerged with contacts from people who want to hear more or attend twigs. Several have emerged empty-handed. A few were mugged. Two were raped. Is the leader who sent them there to be blamed? According to OM's thinking, not at all. He didn't mug or rape anyone. His goals were laudable-help the wows grow, help people hear, help more pfal classes start. He facilitated the wows to be the best in the wow program. That was his INTENTION-not to have evil befall them. Therefore, despite the fact that his direct instructions REQUIRED them to be placed in a position of unnecessary risk, OM would say he bears NO responsibility for anything that happened to them there. Perhaps the person failed to believe sufficiently. The felons, of course, were to blame-everyone agrees about that. The "heart behind" the instruction means that- although it was poorly-considered and planned, and placed people in unnecessary risk- the people who made those decisions are COMPLETELY BLAMELESS. That's applying OM's standard to this situation. INTENT IS EVERYTHING. RESULTS DON'T MATTER.

And a few months from now, we'll be seeing EXACTLY the same posts ALL OVER AGAIN, as if Dooj never offered him insight. We've seen this one before. Others have pointed it out before. Some posters-MOST posters, arrive here thinking vpw was fantastic and innocent and stuff. As they learn things over time, they discover what they THOUGHT they knew wasn't what they THOUGHT it was. They eliminate some of their black-and-white thinking, and discover "the good old days weren't always good." A few posters arrive and have already made up their minds to hold on to their previous opinion and bludgeon anyone who tries to introduce contrary opinions, information or insights. It's disgraceful and sad, but what can you do about them? Here's what Dooj posted. And what OM will delete from active memory as soon as no one's looking.

Right- I meant it more in the sense of trying to pin down what was counter-culture in the sense of "flower power" and so on, what was counter-culture in the sense of conspiracy theorists and acting on their ideas, and what was just some pervs trying to save a buck, and in what percentages. I don't remember a substantial discussion on this particular subject so far. If we could GET a timeline eventually, that would be grand, but if not, any coherent picture is bound to be handy, and useful to SOMEONE- remember, we STILL get new people here, who never knew what's considered common knowledge on this board.

*blink blink* I'm TRULY impressed. TRULY. That is the correct title. And this is an opportunity for me to tell another song-story. First, here's the song. "Last night I had a crazy dream About a chick in a black bikini Oh, she looked so good She couldn't be real She must be a magic genie But then she disappeared around the corner All I saw were three doors And the top of her bikini I made it through the first door There was a party going on I asked about the chick But what they said was freaky Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom Don't you jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom I found the bottom half Behind the second door Which took me to Africa I presume This really far out cat Was screaming half crazy "Bomp boom a loo bom a long bam boo" I said, hey man Cut that jive And tell me where the chick went But he looked at me As pleased as could be And said these words But I wonder what he meant Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't you jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom Aaaah, don't ya jes' love it Mmm-hum, don't ya jes' love it Don't ya love it, don't ya love it Oh yeah, don't ya love it Don't ya jes' love it now I opened the third door and there she was And she whispered so sexy, hello-ooh I tried to do the same And impress her with my style But why I said this I'll never know Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't you jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom Don't ya know I'll Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't you jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't you jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom (Mmmmm-aaaah) Don't ya jes' love it Chick-a-boom-chick-a-boom-boom-boom" =========== Here's the story, which is why I've wanted to post this for a while. From 1971-1976, Saturday morning US cartoons ran one rather early called "the Groovy Ghoulies." Basically, if you took Rowan and Martin's "Laugh-In", made it into a cartoon, translated the people into classic movie-monsters, added some cartoon shorts here and there, and a music video of them singing and playing, then you'd have the Groovy Ghoulies. The giveaway that it was like Laugh-In was "Weird Window Time", which was a ripoff of the opening windows and one-liners from Laugh-In. It was corny, and dry, and lots of fun to watch growing up. I know I'm not the only one who remembers it who's my age because a few years ago someone else was joking about it, and the way Drac looked when he played the pipe organ. (It was a rather unique look that can be imitated, but is hard to describe. His face looked really enthused, his mouth was agape, and he raised each hand above his head and zoomed it straight down like a dive-bomber as he hit the keys.) Anyway, the songs can stay with you a VERY long time. Songs like "At MID-NIGHT!" and "Dumb Ol' Ghoulie" and ones other people remember better, plus the theme song. Well, one song-with a video like always- was written by Dick Monda, who had written others for the show. But, this time, he didn't let the song just die with the cartoon. So, he made a single of it. "Daddy Dewdrop was a fictitious name of an artist, now known as a One Hit Wonder with the song "Chick-A-Boom", written by Dick Monda. Dick Monda is a songwriter living in California, but originally from Cleveland. While in a group of studio musicians from the Sunflower label, namely, Bill Perry, Tom Hensley, Steve Rillera, and Larry Brown and calling themselves the the "Torrance Cookers" they recorded an album with the one hit wonder "Chick-A-Boom (Don't Ya Jes' Love It)", in 1971. The single reached number 9, but follow-up releases by Daddy Dewdrop failed to chart. Monda worked as a songwriter for the television series "Sabrina And The Groovy Ghoulies", a USA cartoon." ""Daddy Dewdrop" was actually Dick Monda, a songwriter originally from Cleveland, along with some studio musicians calling themselves the "Torrance Cookers." The musicians were Bill Perry, Tom Hensley, Steve Rillera, and Larry Brown. The single and subsequent album were recorded in Torrance, California. Surprisingly, the song "Chick-A-Boom," a wry sexual fantasy put to music, jumped into the national top-10, the biggest hit the label ever had. The Daddy Dewdrop album, which followed the successful single, was a light-hearted, if not lightweight, effort that sealed the fate of Daddy Dewdrop as a one-hit wonder, never to be heard from again. The followup single, "The March of the White Corpuscles"/"Fox Huntin'" [sunflower 111], sank without a trace. Dick Monda provided us with a little more background. He explained in a note to us, "I was born in Cleveland, but I lived in California from the time I was five. The interesting thing about 'Chick-A-Boom' is that I originally did it for the TV cartoon show Sabrina and the Groovie Goolies. You were right about the lack of success of the second single. It wasn't the record I wanted to release, but [MGM honcho] Mike Curb would not give my choice a chance. The song I wanted, entitled 'I Ain't Never Seen a White Man,' was later released as the lead cut on an album I produced on Wolfman Jack. The song was a total departure from 'Chick-A-Boom,' as I never thought the hit could be followed up. No songs of that genre have ever been followed up successfully, so it remains to be seen if 'Who Let the Dogs Out' will break the jinx. Anyway, it still feels good to know that someone still remembers my one hit wonder after all these years."" "Dick Monda has one of the more out-there resumes you’ll find. He produced the music for the great 70’s Saturday morning cartoon Groovy Goolies, and enjoyed his 15 minutes of fame with a charting single actually written for that show, Chick-A-Boom, which he performed under the nom-de-plume Daddy Dewdrop (backed by a group of session dudes named…The Torrance Cookers.) In addition to this, he apparently was in a Troma movie about dismembered strippers (natch) called Body Parts. More recently he worked on a Ringo Starr Christmas album. Like I said, out there." I hadn't remembered the song until I was reading some stuff about the cartoon. But, when I read the title, I found I could sing the chorus on-key, and remember part of the video, with the doors opening and shutting. Of course, the chorus is an "ear worm", and I can't STOP singing the chorus on-key now..... If anyone finds the cartoons, or the entire song somewhere, I might be able to clear it from my brain.... Anyway, I found this to be a FAScinating story, but I suppose none of you did-unless you watched the cartoon. Sorry.

You're thinking of "Spill the Wine", by War, with Eric Burdon (of the Animals.) I got this one right earlier in this thread. Here's what you were thinking.... "I was once out strolling one very hot summer's day When I thought I'd lay myself down to rest in a big field of tall grass I lay there in the sun and felt it caressing my face And I fell asleep and dreamed I dreamed I was in a Hollywood movie And that I was the star of the movie This really blew my mind, the fact that me, an overfed, long-haired leaping gnome should be the star of a Hollywood movie But there I was, I was taken to a place, the hall of the mountain kings I stood high upon a mountain top, naked to the world In front of every kind of girl, there was black ones, round ones, big ones, crazy ones... Out of the middle came a lady She whispered in my ear something crazy She said: Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl [spoken:] I thought to myself what could that mean Am I going crazy or is this just a dream Now, wait a minute I know I'm lying in a field of grass somewhere so it's all in my head and then.. I heard her say one more time: [sung:] Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl [spoken:] I could feel hot flames of fire roaring at my back As she disappeared, but soon she returned In her hand was a bottle of wine, in the other, a glass She poured some of the wine from the bottle into the glass And raised it to her lips And just before she drank it, she said: [sung:] Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl Spill the wine and take that pearl, Spill the wine and take that pearl

This isn't a proper turn or anything, and I consider this song unfairly difficult. But I'm curious if anybody can name it without looking it up. So, if nobody minds a song out of any turn..... "Last night I had a crazy dream About a chick in a black bikini. Oh, she looked so good, She couldn't be real- She must be a magic genie. But then she disappeared around the corner. All I saw were three doors And the top of her bikini. I made it through the first door. There was a party going on. I asked about the chick, But what they said was freaky..."

Um, I agree, but I'm really hoping for some discussion on connecting-the-dots. I mean, that's some of the pieces right there. What's the order they fit in?

Personal accounts of the victims, and of eyewitnesses, go a long way in a court of law..... The statute of limitations would be more of an obstacle. BTW, do you really think you're convincing anyone this is really about being fair? Personally, I liked it better when you were candid and said things like "Has nothing to do with the integrity of the Word, but believing something very evil about a person who means something to you and you love." when addressing discussions about the evil, criminal, unChristian actions of vpw. At least there was no pretense you were doing other than trying to protect your mental image of what "the good old days" were like. Dooj, I applaud your goals, but he hasn't found compassion in his heart for the last few years (at the very least) for vpw and lcm's victims, so if I was a betting man, I'd put all my money on "heart of stone" for the foreseeable future.

Skipping the highly subjective label "noble" (else I ask how "noble" it is to do all the things vpw did), let's ask a question that is NOT subjective: Could one successfully sue twi for injuries taken in LEAD, or for requiring hitchhiking, resulting in being hit with a car or raped, or suing on behalf of a participant murdered on their way to/from LEAD? Well, judging from OM, you would think a judge would see the dead body, or the injured or raped party, say "he who consents cannot receive an injury" and close the case immediately. That, of course, would NOT happen. That's because those running a program-or ANY institution- have a responsibility to ensure their institution or program is SAFE. There's a LaZerTag arena I used to frequent. The walls and partitions are all covered with low-density plastic. If you ran fullspeed into either, you'd bounce. They TELL people there's no running, nor climbing on the partitions, nor crawling thru the arena. They have referees monitoring the match, and they are looking specifically for infractions of this. WHY? There's a release on all the applications, saying the person accepts responsibility for their own actions. But if you were playing in the arena, and suddenly tripped over another player, and a running opponent crushed your left hand under his fat boot, you could sue the arena-and win. WHY? Because they're supposed to ensure the safety IN the arena. There's supposed to be nobody to trip OVER. There's supposed to be nobody running at ALL. They're running the session-therefore they accept the LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY to ensure the safety of the participants. You participated willingly, correct. You knew there would be other players, correct. However, if there's danger present, then the organization has MISREPRESENTED themselves and held forth that this is safe and not dangerous. ========== Let's say you join an adults organization- the Princes of Magellan or something. They organize a get-together involving a mountain-climb. You agree. To get there, you are REQUIRED to hitchhike, and you'll be expected to mountain-climb. One person never gets there-he was mugged hitchhiking and he's in the hospital. One person takes a 30-foot fall off the mountain due to insecure supports. Both will sue the organization-and win. The courts of the USA KNOW (they see it as self-evident) that the group in charge of the event is required to MINIMIZE risks-and this one MAXIMIZED some of them. (PLUS required someone to break the law.) And just because you have a deep, unshakeable loyalty for the Princes of Magellan, that does not change their responsibility. Try opining that in a court of law and see how far that goes.Experts in what is acceptable risk and responsibility would disagree, to the tune of lots of money. Oversimplifying. It's never twi's-or vpw's-fault. EVER.

WordWolf: "Walking along the median strip of the highway, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss- like a driver jumps the median at the wrong moment. Walking through Central Park late at night, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss- like, say, a guy with a knife and a black cape is hanging out in that area at that moment. Getting your evening excercise by wandering up and down the stairs in the projects, in and of itself, is not particularly dangerous. I suppose it can prove to be dangerous if something goes amiss-like a drug-user or mugger finds you. Now, if a program claimed to BENEFIT you insisted that you would be REQUIRED to do each, most sensible people would-at the very least-insist on discussing the possible benefits of engaging what is known to be a dangerous activity (whether or not it dangerous "in and of itself".) Most programs, you may be surprised to know, DON'T require things like those or hitchhiking. Of course, most programs are designed by people who actually know something ABOUT leadership programs, and don't view the participants as DISPOSABLE." George Aar: "Then there's also a thing called "risk/benefit analysis". A thing that was entirely disregarded at WayWorld, near as I can tell. Like - a couple of girls hitchhiking alone through Texas in the winter. I can definitely see a markedly increased risk. But what were the benefits? I mean, other than the fact that it was a way to transport the girls somewhere at no cost to VPW?" This isn't rocket science for most people....

Now, in case people out there need documentation of this, since I haven't typed out the exact wording vpw used when he said he wasn't concerned about the risk of rape to LEAD hitchhikers, I'll use some documentation I have handy. lcm on someone in the corps having an attack, and what vpw thought was the appropriate response to it. "There was an incident of a guy in the Corps who all of a sudden went 'gooney-bird'. He started to babble and not make sense. LCM worked hard with the guy to help him but he was incoherent. Dr, when he met him, confronted him by asking- 'Son, how come you're letting your mind get all scrambled?' The guy answered unintelligibly and Dr told him that it would be best for him just to pack his bags and go home. The guy understood that. He left. LCM spent many hours and many long distance phone calls trying to make sure the guy had gotten home from his bus ride home safely. Not being able to verify his location, he was concerned. Dr told him to move on. There's nothing you can do, he'll show up at home soon enough. A week later the guy did show up at home." INCOHERENT. TOLD TO PACK HIS BAGS AND GO HOME. SHOVED ON A BUS. TOOK A WEEK TO GET HOME BY BUS. God only knows all the wanderings he had, and what the attack even WAS. Just shove him off-grounds then "MOVE ON, THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO." In a word, DISPOSABLE. And all the multisyllabic terms someone retrieved from their thesaurus can't change the HEARTLESS, UNCHRISTIAN attitude the "program" was run with.

lcm didn't START OUT that way, but he learned it eventually from vpw. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...c=8019&st=0 especially check out the bottom of page 4 and top of page 5. lcm proudly documented it!