WordWolf

vpw implied it and never said so outright. Prevarication- suggesting something while maintaining plausible deniability because "I never said that" has a longstanding tradition in twi, and is still popular among vpw's apologists.

Supposing-just to humour Oldiesman- just supposing he was completely sincere- "I genuinely want to bless you by drugging you and having sex with you when you lose consciousness," is this something that should be considered legal or moral behaviour? Is it ok to drug and rape a woman IF ONE HAS GOOD INTENTIONS? Or is that only ok if The Man Of God For Our Day And Time drugs and rapes a woman? IS IT POSSIBLE that this is anything but unacceptable behaviour, ALWAYS? IS IT POSSIBLE that he was a sick sexual predator who should have been put in prison for his crimes against women?

I appreciate the effort, but do you really think you can hit a little target like their consciences when the choices are between an unpleasant truth and their devoted adoration of "the good old days" and "vpw was a great Christian leader"?

To say nothing of the parts that were lifted entirely from 2 of Bullinger's books: A) The Rich Man and Lazarus: an Intermediate State? http://philologos.org/__eb-rml/ B) Saul and the Witch at Endor: did the dead arise at her bidding?

"You exemplify a fine new crop of young Americans who will grow into the leaders of this great country." " This desert is stupid. They should put a drinking fountain out here. " "Hey Baby. Are we gonna do it?" "You have 2 seconds." "Uh, is that gonna be enough time?" " I'm sorry, how many Hail-Marys?" "A thousand! And I want you to hit yourself! Right now!" "Um, now?" "Yes, do it!"

I've had lots of fun with the locals, over the years. Seems that once a guy had a title, he was no fun anymore, but everybody else was often a blast, and didn't see a need to stand on ceremony.

See, except for people dedicated to seeing vpw kept clear of even the suggestion of impropriety (i.e. "do anything to keep a charge from sticking"), this is pretty clear. For those of you for whom this is not a clear-cut and straightforward account, NOTHING will be sufficient for you to even consider this is likely to be true, let alone possible, and any blame accruing to vpw for inflicting this on a victim is inconceivable. Why bother saying it's anything other than that? I can respect our differences if you're being up-front and honest about your reasons. You refuse to seriously entertain any thoughts that demonstrate serious moral depravity or felonies on the part of vpw, so anything and anyone that suggests otherwise must be dismissed, belittled, labelled, and ridiculed. Be honest with yourselves about this, at least.

In other words, you won't even seriously consider the idea that the victims might all be telling the truth and that's why their stories all form a cohesive whole, unless there's DNA evidence, video footage and a confession signed by vpw. Anything else would be considered "reasonable" doubt.

Actually, I remembered "You were trying, she was succeeding." That and "Pointy end goes into the other guy" are the quotes I can rattle off from it. ======== Ok, next movie. "You exemplify a fine new crop of young Americans who will grow into the leaders of this great country." " This desert is stupid. They should put a drinking fountain out here. "

I agree, and think that's a good approach. However, it contradicts what twi taught, and teaches. It also contradicts the literal interpretation of the verses we're discussing. twi taught "believe it and ask, and you'll get it. Didn't get it? Didn't ask, or didn't believe. Try to do better next time." We got that it works for sinner and saint alike, and that we should use the analogy of a camera to focus our believing better. (That's in the Blue Book.) That it's about RELATIONSHIP CONFLICTS with what was taught.

That anyone can say it was too bad that a woman who was drugged didn't "just walk away" i.e. "she had a choice and could choose not to ose consciousness and thus tacitly approve of anything done to her while unconscious" illustrates my point. (I think it's also telling that people keep trying to compare vpw-not with rapists, for he was one- but with David, a king of Israel, a prophet, and a man selected by God, as if vpw somehow shares any of those qualities with David. vpw's more like Hophni and Phineas, Eli's sons (Eli taught Samuel), who supposedly served God in his temple, but had sex with the women serving in the temple, and otherwise corrupted his temple.) Exactly how even-handed is this approach to what vpw did? You left out the insinuation that ANY allegations by ANY number of people are BY DEFINITION false accounts,which saves the trouble of actually READING THE ACCOUNTS. And we've seen that again, too.... If the ONLY thing important is "the Word" (and what that means is open to the interpretation of the person who's saying it), then the PEOPLE are of lesser importance, or NO importance AT ALL. We learned that the hard way in twi, some of us a LOT harder than others. Seems some people are still walking around thinking that's perfectly acceptable.

However, I find that the bare handful that DON'T agree on this have the tendency to belabour this ad nauseum. If we ALL actually agreed on this, there wouldn't be endless disagreements on this subject. No names, but if you scroll back a few pages, you'll find someone posting that they consider the victims' testimonies from those who have come forth to be little more than invented slanders, meant to trivialize the wonderfulness of the wonderful vpw who did all sorts of wonderful teachings in a wonderful ministry that was mostly rainbows and ponies while he was in charge of it. pm me if you're unable to find it. (I'm exercising dramatic license with the "rainbows and ponies" thing.) I have- but not recently, and it was by the notable exception you were thinking of,who claimed all of twi/pfal was perfect. However, I HAVE seen people trivialize the sufferings of others- "they're lying" "they wanted it" "they sought it out themselves" in order to shrink, in their minds, the harm vpw PERSONALLY did, in order to justify their good experiences in twi WHILE vpw was violating those who were not themselves, and to justify the high level of respect they give vpw and pfal, claiming they were as good as can be expected of humans. That's not LITERALLY what you were speaking on, but it's a defense mechanism very close to that very thing. I agree. I think that the evils should be acknowledged and understood, and we should all do BOTH and THEN move on with our lives. There's some non-Christians who'd debate the first point with you. Not me, but I think they have some valid points. I'm perfectly fine with discussing BOTH types of experiences with twi- among the many types we experienced, all of which are worth discussing, for good or ill. I'm perfectly fine with considering acknowledgement of BOTH to be healthy and necessary. I question whether everyone actually can ACCEPT that vpw performed evils personally, and can frankly discuss them ever. Since that's 1/2 the equation, I don't see THEM completing their stage of the journey, and I think their posts can reflect that.

CA, Hello. Your intent probably is to acknowledge the damage that was done, and encourage people to acknowledge the hurts they received, and the conjobs that conned them, so that they can heal and move on. I applaud those goals. Generally, Catcup does, as well. In this particular case, however, your METHODS are striking sparks with people who would agree with you normally. Why? Your approach has a lecturing tone. Many of us have been posting and reading here for YEARS, and have already had a LOT of time processing all the information. Your posts make it sound like the ideas you're presenting are novel and new to us. Not here-we talk about this ALL THE TIME here, month after month, year after year, and between all the iterations of the GSC and its predecessor, that's been happening for A DECADE. People who arrive and decide none of us understand anything and choose to lecture don't get a favourable response- because they're not making a good impression. "We were hoodwinked? We should seek to explore how, and achieve closure, then move on with our lives?" That's the everyday report here. If you walked in announcing it, your news is very, very late. Your intentions are good, but your approaches are negating your intentions. Please consider, and formulate future posts accordingly. Thank you and have a nice day.

You're supposing the problem here exists within yourself.

This really should be no surprise when one remembers that he claimed he could have been an executive at AB Dick or whatever, and he invented the hook shot while in school, and the "microphone behind the tie" recording method, and so on.

Supposing that person even existed. We did note that the entire story does not appear in the Orange Book, only in the class the Orange Book was taken from. The class segment had the noteworthy line "She had a need. And the need was, they might as well be red drapes."

They would be, and they are, quotes from the Monkees. Your turn!

Different expectations. That's why I didn't mind the last chapter, but some people did. I expected it after reading Book 5-at least the basic content (years later...) I had worked out that DD was already GOING to die, and dying that way preserved Snape's "cover", so that was no surprise to me. Neville started coming along nicely starting Book 5, when he was able to get out of his parents' shadow and apply himself. I really expected him to get Narcissa in the big fight scene-he almost seemed to be training for that in the DA. Considering what she left out, I found the entire "deathly hallows" subplot to not only be unnecessary and steal time from the main plot, I found it muddied the story. If she was leaving other things out to save space and time, I see no reason to include this when it seems to have been needless. (I say the wand business could just have been written differently.) My thinking is that Disapparition has to be done from a stable platform, with relatively little movement, So, youcould disapparate on a train when it's stopped, or a plane in an airport, but not either when they're in motion because that could drop you moving at the same speed or do some more harmful thing like automatically "splinch" you. (Where there's a good shot of an explanation, I DO give the benefit of the doubt.) Congrats. That's a rare feeling for me. If you're looking for another series to immerse yourself in, I'd recommend Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series, starting with the first book, "Eye of the World." (It's not perfect, but I give it high marks. The second book does drag a bit, which I dislike, but that doesn't ruin the second book.)

That was very naughty of you. And rather sensible, for that matter. Did you ever get in trouble for it? Or did they just save that for when they caught you fishing?

See, it's posts like this that illustrate that your position and mine are not really as far apart as some might think. 1) vpw taught some good stuff. 2) vpw chose to hurt a lot of people. 3) Anything that was taught that was good, remains so in spite of the harm to people. We both agree on those, and they seem to be the major points. Where we differ is largely in what specifically was good that was taught, (what was accurate, what was error, what was helpful, what was harmfut), which are doctrinal issues, and some wrangling over who got hurt and how much, which I don't see as particularly useful to discuss unless the parties involved are discussing them. The things I object to primarily aren't there- they are the "vpw didnt really harm a lot of people, he was really a nice guy falsely accused" stuff, the "twi never had a harmful side, and was always sweetness and light" stuff. Me, I wasn't really exposed to the harmful side, and am well aware there were many positive experiences while in twi- mine and other people's, but that doesn't erase the existence of the bad experiences had by others, and attempts to belittle or erase THOSE get my attention. My posts are a whole lot nicer and more interesting when people don't try to pull that one ad nauseum. I don't know if you've caught that.

[so, claiming that in the nation of Israel, "technically, all the women in the kingdom belonged to the king", which completely contradicts the entire Mosaic Law, does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly? How about claims that under grace, sex between 2 people not married to each other is fine "if you can handle it," which contradicts the Epistles, does that count as handling Scriptures, and not doing so correctly? And how someone handles the Scriptures PRIVATELY, is that insignificant compared to how they handle it PUBLICKLY at the podium? If so, Jimmy Swaggart was immaculate, since he was perfect AT THE PODIUM but acted poorly IN PRIVATE. That's 3 questions.] [That's wonderful.] I noticed you counted me among them. I ASKED YOU specific questions- which you didn't answer, BTW- and said what generally happened when someone arrived and began making pronouncements, which is why you got the reaction you did. You responded by saying I said YOU meant that- which is jumping to a conclusion. (Then blaming me for putting words in your mouth.) You might review the posts of the others and see if you've similarly ascribed error and malice where none existed. Just a suggestion, since you made that mistake in ONE case...] [Ah, at least some of those posts, that's not what happened, but you labelled them soIMMEDIATELY, which allowed you to dismiss them "with a clear conscience". BTW, there were also some purely knee-jerk reactions by those who see someone claim vpw was harmless and didn't really hurt anyone and say "WELL DONE! TOTALLY TRUE!" You took those as endorsement of your position-which is as fair as automatically abandoning your position because someone said "NUTS! NUTS! NUTS!" While we're on the subject, precisely WHO did that knee-jerk reaction you're claiming, and what did they say? You MIGHT be POLARIZING the issues, reducing them to BLACK AND WHITE THINKING. That's come up already.] Ever consider that there's a wealth of information, including many eyewitnesses and confessions from members of the inner circle who facilitated the felonies, and that by themselves, they're pretty damning, even leaving out the direct testimony of the victims? I BEGAN from the position that vpw was probably innocent- and didn't want him to be guilty. However, examining the wealth of testimony HONESTLY, I found that position UNSUPPORTABLE. Now, if I was eager to dismiss all of them to maintain my comfortable viewpoint, perhaps I would be posting little encouragements when you posted otherwise- another of the apologists for vpw. Of course, if you've already decided anything I post is without merit, you probably won't consider any of this no matter how sound the advice. However, I've no guarantee you've done that. And even if you did, you may reconsider.]

""Who turned on the dark?" ""One thing I can't stand is late kidnappers." "What advice would you give young people just starting out in the spy business?" "You ain't goin' no place!" "The dance in France is mainly in the stance." "I regret to inform you that Norway has just declared war on Sweden." "He's not evil... crafty and selfish, maybe, but not evil." "It's all yours, mate." "It's great, it's terrific, it's the best show on Earth!" "April is the cruelest month." "How hungry can they get in half an hour?" "She put herself in a big box, put herself in a box this big, and sent herself up and put photographs on it. And we opened it and this young lady popped out." "What happened to her?" "Popped her back in again." "We shipped her to the Beatles." Should I prepare the four beds?" "No, no, prepare four coffins. They will not live the night." "Ooh! So, uh... That's, uh... That's what [bleeped] is all about." "Yeah. [bleeped] It's pretty scary." "You know what's even more scary?" "What?" "You can't say [bleeped] on television. "

It's "THE MASK OF ZORRO."

I had more fun deconstructing the magic system and sleuthing the clues than I did anything else. I never said I didn't LIKE the books, but I'm not a diehard fan-you won't see me buying wizard robes or a wand (which they make.) No, I meant what I said- I didn't like the last book particularly, but I'm glad SOME people did. We were all looking forward to liking it, and some of us did, and I'm happy for them.

Hello, Deciderator. [Whenever I hear buzzwords aligned so precisely, so rehearsed, I maintain a safe distance and grab my hazmat gear.] [That's not bad, IMHO.] [see, every time we get a statement like this, what it's meant is "I wish to maintain the image of vpw as some sort of benevolent, wise teacher, and wish to avoid any references to him drugging women, raping women, using their 'birth to the corps' papers to decide WHICH women to rape, and arranging an inner cadre to help facilitate this and cover his tracks afterwards, monitoring women so that he could dispose of them if they looked like they were going to tell someone. Among other things." Me, I would rarely even mention the evil actions vpw did, except we keep getting people dedicated to COVERING UP the evil actions vpw did- then accusing the rest of US of being fixated because we refuse to let them cover up his evil acts. Tell me this.... Can you honestly say "I think it was terrible that vpw drugged and raped women, and organized things to make that easier and arrange things so he could get away with it"? If so, then I see little reason to continue discussing it with you- you're informed, consider it wrong, and won't be pretending it didn't happen. If not, then the motivation for us to STOP talking about it is NOT what you reported, and you're fooling yourself, if not us. You DID just claim you never put wierwille on a pedastal- is that really true? Please think that over for a bit.] [Neither have I, and many of us put action to word on that when we're not on the GSC.Our posts here =\= our lives. We CAN tell the truth about things hidden, and ALSO spread love, kindness and forgiveness! Imagine that! Sometimes love and kindness involve helping someone face their pain, and sitting with them and listening, without reciting Bible verses in response. At the GSC, a LOT of people have gotten that kind of help. And if you want to discuss DOCTRINE, we have a forum for that, called "DOCTRINAL." The idea that we must EITHER spread love, kindness and forgiveness OR report the evils that have been performed on suffering brethren is a "FALSE DILEMMA." We don't have only two choices, and they are not mutually-exclusive. For that matter, HIDING the evils that have been performed on suffering brethren is not synonymous with spreading love, forgiveness and kindness, either. [Except when people keep reporting vpw was an ok guy and didn't inflict great suffering, we don't keep circling the same old points. And make up your mind- are we "holding it in", or posting it all the time? Can't be both, can't discuss something while "holding it in." "We all were hurt." Me, I wasn't really hurt, and from what you're saying, you weren't really hurt, either. That means it's unfair to tell the women whom vpw PERSONALLY wronged, "Oh, just suck it up." Do you know how long it takes to rebuild a life when someone has decimated it with acts of rape and other destructive, evil deeds? Any PROFESSIONAL could tell you that it's not a 5-minute job with a pep talk, a verse recitation, and a pat on the back. And again, you're confusing what we post here with "what we do 99% of the time". What you SEE is not what is happening. Similarly, you may have seen vpw as some benevolent teacher who loved his people and would have suffered for them, instead of one who inflicted suffering ON them. What you SAW was not what was happening.] [This is STILL not a Christian board. Here, read this:http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913 ] [so, because some people murdered, and vpw and lcm didn't and only ruined lives without killing them- although they DID drive people to commit suicide- EACH of them, does that count as killing someone?- we're not supposed to take offense at what evils they committed? We're supposed to shrug, say "well, people sin" and just give them a free pass? That SEEMS to be what you're SUGGESTING....]