WordWolf

I'd say not. You knew the artist, you had the album. Geddy Lee has a mild speech impediment? Please post the next song.

"Truth needs no defense." Patently wrong, especially when everyone believes a lie. The saying was vpw's excuse to cover his gross deficiencies. Many times he either didn't understand fully what he was quoting from another writer (like his inconsistent explanations of "allos" and "heteros" and "all without distinction" in one place being "all with a distinction" in another place). Furthermore, a number of times he just pulled explanations out of his donkey. How could he justify that? He could NOT- so he made a virtue of his deficiency. ========= Remember in pfal where vpw "explains" to the class about apologetics? That was where we learned that this is how people learn to "apologize for being a Christian." Now, that was vpw pulling an explanation out of his burro. The actual meaning, which I just grabbed in about 10 seconds by typing "what is apologetics" into a browser, is " The term apologetics comes from the Greek apologia, which means "defense" or "answer." Apologetics is the task of defending a particular idea or belief system and answering its critics. The origin of the concept of apologetics lies in the beginnings of Christianity. Between the second and fourth century, a number of Christian teachers wrote defenses of Christianity against pagan critics." (www.calvarychapel.com) So, the word "apologetics" means a "defense" or "answer", and is not an "apology" at all. This would have been obvious to vpw if he was even 1/2 way competent in Greek studies as he often put forth with all his explanations from the Greek (cribbed mostly from Bullinger). However, as you all should remember, he never studied Greek texts or even Church history (which would have educated him on the development of early apologetics), but he himself said his specialty was "Homiletics", or "Preaching". (The softest option available, really.) BTW, wikipedia has this to say on "apologetics"... "Apologetics is the field of study concerned with the systematic defense of a position. Someone who engages in apologetics is called an apologist or an "apologete". The term comes from the Greek word apologia (απολογία), meaning defense of a position against an attack." " The term apologetics etymologically derives from the Classical Greek word apologia. In Classical Greek legal system two key technical terms were employed: the prosecution delivered the kategoria, and the defendant replied with an apologia. To deliver an apologia then meant making a formal speech to reply and rebut the charges, as in the case of Socrates' defence. This Classical Greek term appears in the Koine (i.e. common) Greek of the New Testament. The Apostle Paul employs the term apologia in his trial speech to Festus and Agrippa when he says "I make my defence" (Acts 26:2). A cognate term appears in Paul's letter to the Philippians as he is "defending the gospel" (1:7 & 17), and in 1 Peter 3:15 believers must be ready to give an "answer" for their faith. The word also appears in the negative in Rom. 1:20: unbelievers are αναπολόγητος (anapologētos) (without excuse / defence / apology) for rejecting the revelation of God in creation." "In the English language, the word apology is derived from the Greek word apologia, but its use has changed; its primary sense now refers to a defensive plea for forgiveness for an action that is open to blame. It is occasionally used to refer to a speech or writing that defends the author's position." ======= vpw was so deficient in apologetics-explaining WHY a belief should be held- that he evaded the entire subject and smeared it with a label. Did he do that deliberately, knowing what the term meant and deliberately lying about it? Or was he so incompetent that he couldn't even open a collegiate dictionary to find its definition, which is something our supposed "Greek scholar" should have been able to rattle off from memory? Take your pick-it was one or the other. (And of course, I'm evil for even mentioning it. I'll put that on my tab.) =========== BTW, vpw plagiarized the style of "never try to explain when you can declare something true by divine fiat" like he plagiarized nearly everything else. He got it from LAMSA. http://www.equip.org/free/DL010.htm "Lamsa considered himself to be the man God set aside and inspired for our times, and his followers still view him as such. One even senses in Lamsa's writings an implicit claim that he stands in the line of apostles with Moses, Jesus, Paul, and Mohammed. Lamsa explains his unique calling through editor Tom Alyea: "God had revealed to Lamsa his purpose and how it was to be done. It was a one-man job. In the Bible testimony is given that God spoke to man; however, it is not recorded where he spoke to a committee...Yes, only one man could translate the Bible from Aramaic. God knew it, and Lamsa knew it, and so it was."49 Lamsa also attempts to establish scholarly credentials as a means of gaining acceptance. He claims to have been born about 1892, and to have acquired an A.B. degree equivalent in 1907 and a Ph.D. equivalent in theology in 1908 from Archbishop of Canterbury's College, Turkey.50 He also claims to have graduated from Episcopal Theology Seminary in Virginia51 and to have studied at the University of Pennsylvania and Dropsie College. Lamsa, however, appears to have exaggerated his academic credentials. First, he claims to have attained a Ph.D. at age 16, only one year after his A.B.52 Second, there are no records of his graduation from a seminary, and his own writings suggest that he was never at any school long enough to attain any valid degree. Lamsa's writing style reflects his exalted view of his own mission and character. He usually writes embellished narratives or discourses, not documenting either blanket assertions or detailed comments. For example, he dismisses his lack of supporting evidence for his theory that the New Testament was originally authored in Aramaic by saying, "What is a fact needs no defense."53 He assumes that his peculiar habits, culture, superstitions, idioms, and musings all match and illuminate Scripture, resulting in often incorrect or simplistic interpretations. By contrast, scholars in the fields of New Testament studies and Aramaic offer detailed evidence, accept criticisms, and yield much more cautious and informed conclusions. ====== Simply put, twi tries to declare everything they say as true beyond question- and then suppresses the questions. This was instilled from the beginning by vpw himself.

Now that I've had my fun lampooning this lampoon-worthy list, I think it's only fair we demonstrate the courage of our convictions, and save the average twi'er $52. Since some of us believe the internet (specific webpages) have all these answers, let's provide the URLs for these topics! Here's the topic list. "Better Spelling Basics Building an Understanding of Vehicle Purchasing Early History of New Knoxville The First Freedom: Religious Liberty in America Highlights of African History and Culture A history of the Huguenots Ideas to Encourage Reading in Young Children Maintaining Reliable Transportation Making a Home-cleaning Schediule That Works for You Powerful Paragraphs Sola Scriptura: An Overview of the Protestant Reformation Some Practical Aspects of Business Etiquette The "Write" Stuff" I'll start off. A History of the Huguenots: http://www.geocities.com/hugenoteblad/hist-hug.htm http://www.huguenotsociety.org.uk/history/ http://huguenot.netnation.com/general/huguenot.htm http://www.huguenotsocietyofamerica.org/ Can the rest of you fill in the others?

Back in the 80s, that would have been one for the record books! Nowadays, though, that might be three bootings, depending on the state.

So how long were you and Craig on grounds that afternoon?

Another quote from "Born Again to Serve", by Mrs W. pg-41. ""Beginning with a radio broadcast on Saturday, October 3, 1942, Rev. Wierwille and his assembled youth group performed their first live radio production. Rev. Wierwille certainly didn't realize at the time that this program would launch a ministry which would change the lives of thousands. His first radio program was designed to teach principles of the abundant life "through musical performancs and scriptural messages." Dr. Wierwille later said, "I felt we had to do something to bless the people, and a radio broadcast might arouse some excitement and serve as outreach." The personal impact of such regular teaching and preaching, Dr. Wierwille explained, "was that it got me back to digging the Word.... That broadcast and the Sunday morning service made me, made me, go to the Word for two or three new teachings a week. It got me into the Word, got me growing in it and kept me fluid. "We were pioneers in using people for our performances," he continued. "All of the other religious programs used adults. But I thought if we started with young people, it would grow into something and the adults might catch on." [Pictured in the first broadcast of Vesper Chimes.......One man, one young female pianist, three young female singers and Mrs. Wierwille.] pg-42-43 ""Rev. Wierwille said the following of his days in Payne: After all this activity and reaching out to learn more, I must know to satisy my inner yearning. And so I stood in my newly rented office and prayed to the Father. "Father, teach me the Word, teach me the Word." He told me as plain as day that if I would study the Word, He would teach me the Word like He had not been able to teach it to anybody since the first century. And, of course, at that time I thought, "Now that's a dandy. Boy, if I learned this Word of God, everybody will listen to me. The whole church will be blessed; my denomination will grow by leaps and bounds because we'll have the Word of God." And I thought that was terrrific. But during the process of that revelation, I said, "Father, how will I know that this is You and that You'll really teach it to me? Because I had worked the Word in commentaries and the rest of it, and I couldn't understand it, couldn't get it to fit. And the sun was shining brightly. It was in the fall of the year. Gorgeous. There wasn't a cloud in the sky. And just on the inside of me it seemed to say, "Well, just say to the Father, "Well, if it'll just snow right now, you'll just know that this is God talking to you.'" Cause you see. I'd never had much experience with God's talking to me. And this business of His saying to me, just as audibly as I am speaking to you, that He'd teach me the Word if I'd teach it, sort of shook me. I'd been expecting to hear from heaven for a long time, but I hadn't heard that way before. Oh, my ears were perhaps clogged up. Since that time I've heard a lot of things from Him. And I said, "Lord, to know that this is true, I'd like to see it snow." And I opened my eyes, and it was pitch-black, almost pitch-black outside, and the snow was falling so thick. I have never seen it fall that thick since that day. And I sat in that little office, and I cried like a baby. Because I guess it was about my time to cry because I'd grown up but I didn't know the Word. And from that day on since He promised He'd teach me the Word, I have tried with all my heart to learn this Word. Rev. Wierwille never told anyone of this experience until much later when he was teaching The Way Corps. It was a most astounding phenomenon which he kept to himself." ***** Skyrider gives a little timeframe, and continues quoting "Born Again to Serve". " In June of 1944, the Wierwille family left the Payne church, with approximately 120 members, and moved to the St. Peter's Evangelical and Reformed Church in Van Wert which had 16 on the active membership list. In Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, many Christian men are noted to help Rev. Wierwille with his search for answers. Listed below are highlighted excerpts from the book. E. Stanley Jones p. 48 "Rev. Wierwille had made plans to go to the E. Stanley Jones Ashram (as he called his religious retreats) at Salisbury, North Carolina, the latter part of that July 1944. Since there was gas rationing because of World War II, rides had to be shared. So Rev. Wierwille rode with three other people from northwestern Ohio to North Carolina. Later Rev. Wierwille said of E. Stanley Jones, "I considered him a wonderful friend. I learned a great deal from him and I liked him very much. But I began to grow and develop not only to enjoy intellectualism but also the heart and love which I picked up from Rufus Moseley, Starr Daily, and Glenn Clark." Rufus Moseley p. 52 "One of the main speakers of the 1944 Ashram in North Carolina was a spirit-filled man whom I mentioned previously, Rufus Moseley. Brother Rufus, as everyone called him, a retired professor by that time, literally jumped for joy as he taught.... His teachings were so simple yet so dynamic. 'When we are born from above through faith that causes us to receive Him, we are born of His nature, of His love, of His Word, of His seed, and are given power to become like Him.' Also, 'We're made for the highest and nothing short of His best for us, and our best for Him, for all can satisfy us....So centralize on Jesus and his way of life as perfect union, perfect love, and perfect joyous obedience and you get these and you get everything.' He wrote in his book Perfect Everything, 'Many are tempted to believe that everything man needs is within himself, that all he needs to know are the laws of mind....and no need for a personal God or savior....We must be wise enough to be taught and led by the Holy Spirit.'" Perry Hayden p. 55 "In his search for Christians with a dynamic knowledge of God, Rev. Wierwille somehow heard of Perry Hayden, a Quaker miller from Tecumseh, Michigan, who was inspired by a message in his Quaker church and set out to illustrate some of the Bible lessons on "tithing," "rebirth," and "returns on what you sow." As quickly as arrangements could be made, Rev. Wierwille invited Perry to come from Michigan to visit our church and tell us about his [tithing] experiment." Glenn Clark p. 56 "Having attended the Camp Farthest Out in the summer of 1945 at Lake Koronis in Minnesota, Rev. Wierwille invited the camp's founder, Glenn Clark to come to speak and teach us in 1946... "Because of his dream of 'going farther out spiritually.' Glenn developed the concept of the Camps Farthest Out. His first experimental camp was held at Camp Koronis in Minnesota, in 1931... "We thought Glenn Clark's Camps Farthest Out was the best design in camps that we had ever seen. And so we have used many of the C.F.O. principles and activities in The Way Family Camps at Camp Gunnison--The Way Family Ranch in Colorado." E.W. Kenyon p. 76 "E.W. Kenyon (1857-1948) was another man whose dynamic writings had a great impact on Dr. Wierwille's life. Kenyon was a man who had a great thirst for a knowledge of God. And what he learned, he was diligent to pass on to others..........by studying Kenyon's writings, Dr. Wierwille was able to teach more of the accuracy of God's Word." "Kenyon's one fixed goal was: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needed not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Timothy 2:15). Dr. Wierwille enthusiastically promoted Kenyon's writings: The Blood Covenant, The Two Kinds of Faith, The Two Kinds of Knowledge, Identification, and Jesus the Healer, to mention some of them. These were valuable sources of inspiration for himself personally and in his teaching ministry." ***** Skyrider continues... "According to Mrs. Wierwille's book, there is a long list of men and women who significantly taught and influenced her husband.....one of the most profound being Rev. B.G. Leonard. Rev. B. G. Leonard p. 90 "Ever since the Divine Healing Convention in Tulsa in December 1951, and since Rev. B.G. Leonard prayed with us for Mary's healing over the phone in December 1952, Dr. Wierwille's hunger for more knowledge about God's healing power was piqued. In late winter, February 1953, Dr. Wierwille felt the need to spend time with B.G. Leonard..... "B.G. Leonard called his work in Calgary 'The Christian Training Centre.' Dr. Wierwille described his first impressions there: "I walked in and B.G. was in the middle of announcements. They must have lasted an hour and a half. Then he took his violin and played hymns for a while. When he finally started preaching, he taught his heart out for another hour and a half. Then everyone left and I sat there. He said, 'I thought I told you that you couldn't come.' And I said, 'Yeah, but I didn't hear you.' " In June of 1953, four months after Dr. Wierwille's initial trip, our family traveled with two other carloads of our friends to Calgary to take B.G. Leonard's class which he called "The Gifts of the Spirit." At his Christian Training Centre, a large upstairs room over a pawnshop, our son Don and I were students in this class from June 28 to July 15. Dr. Wierwille was with us, but of course, he was not a new student, though he wanted to sit through the class again because what B.G. Leonard was teaching was so thrilling and powerful about the "gifts" of holy spirit and about spiritual healing." p. 99...."In October 1953, Dr. Wierwille taught the first Power for Abundant Living class, which was held in the basement of St. Peter's Church. The first two classes were called "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." The name was then changed to the broader title......" ***** Much thanks for Skyrider for posting that in the "Outreach Beyond vp's congregation" thread.

I don't have a completed one yet-not one I'd be satisfied with saying "this is a complete one." However, the one I've gotten so far is, I'd say, maybe 85% complete up to 1985. (If not more.) It developed on the thread "the way:living in wonderland", where we examined vpw's own claims about himself, then we finished by looking at some timelines put out by twi here and there. (Most of the dates were courtesy of the twi book "the Way:Living in Love" or the biography twi put out when vpw died.) The thread itself is worth reading for its own reasons, and you can see the development of the timeline there from a few dates to a more complete form. The thread is http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7363 The "5.6" version of my vpw timeline was dated 2/26/06, and is the most recent version. It's on page 26. I wouldn't crosspost it, but I think it's relevant to Skyrider's original post-asserting vpw carjacked the work of others. For those people-and they WILL come out of the woodwork- who are swift to claim that the timeline lacks any sort of documentation-I direct them to 26 pages of discussion of same on the thread I linked in this very post. You'll see the sources for the statements, as well as the corrections and clarifications as the version #s go up. So, here's that crosspost. "Edition 5.6 of my timeline. I added the Moody reference, and a detail about the vpw/bgl class. ==== This timeline is mostly from publications OF TWI. ========= Let's see. victor paul wierwille was born to a large family of German descent. (Born December 31, 1916.) According to locals, Ernst, his father, was an alcoholic with negligible education, with a bad temper who acted as a bully.This was true in his dealings with locals AND with his own family.Each child had their own chores. Little Victor chose to neglect his chores, and would vanish for hours into the woods nearby. (It has been noted that this running off may have been as much to avoid an abusive father as it was to avoid doing any work. Or it may be unrelated.) He claimed that when he was young, he once told a minister that he wanted to be a man of God like him. Other than this statement, Little Victor showed no actual involvement in the church, no actual effort or work in the things of the church. So, this seems to suggest an interest-not in being a man of God- but in being the man the whole community turned out to see, to have their respect. As a teenager, young Vic continued to lack any qualities of a man of God. In fact, he went out of his way to earn a reputation going in the opposite direction. He was a bully, a showoff and a braggart. (He seems to have been taught this at home.) He did all sorts of things for attention. He was quick to start a fight or mouth off at others. He had a quick wit. One of his common ways of showing off was to tear up and down the streets of New Knoxville on his motorcycle, trying to get attention. His demonstrated talents seemed to be limited to his quick wit and his ability to play a guitar, which he showed competency in. Old Man Wierwille was preparing to pass on thefamily farm to young Vic, as was the family tradition. Young Vic balked at this. He'd had plans to go to college. At first, he considered a few fields-business and so on- but by this time, he had decided upon the seminary. (This was before the time he referred to as "believing the Bible as the Word of God".) Old Man Wierwille was skeptical of this, and said that young Vic, having shown lack of hard work on simple manual labour on the farm, would never make a good preacher. Young Vic convinced him he would do better with books than with sweating out in the field. Young Vic went to school for the ministry. His community thought it was some kind of joke- everyone knew he lacked the proper character. (He never overcame that impression with them.) Victor had the option to study "Bible Languages" or other subjects requiring hard study. He instead chose to study Homiletics, the "softest" option he could have learned. (He never overcame his deficiency in study in Bible languages, church history, etc.-not even to the level of an informed layman as of 2004.) Victor was married July 2, 1937(Mr was 20, Mrs was 21). According to vpw, he and Mrs W married secretly while he was still in college. No reason for this was ever given. Victor suggested he played on his college's basketball team, and that after college he played on the professional team "the Sheboygan Redskins." His claim of each was phrased ambiguously ("I played basketball all through college" "I was involved in the Sheboygan Redskins") and the purpose seems to have been so that he was believed to have said he did both without actually making the claims. Later, he began making claims that he also "invented the hook shot" at this time. He graduated with a BA from Lakeland College in 1937. Donald was born in 1940. Victor graduated Princeton Theological Seminary in 1941, with a Masters in Practical Theology. He did his "trial sermons" in 1941 in Payne, Ohio for the Evangelical and Reformed Church. According to his memorial in 1985, he started his first pastorate July 1941, and was ordained July 29, 1941. (According to his account in TW:LIL, his first pastorate began in 1944 in Van Wert, Ohio, and continued until 1957.) Victor entered his first pastorate and wasted little time becoming a bully and a control freak AGAIN. He himself claimed he started his job by immediately doing whatever the elders told him not to do- even though it hampered his ability to do his job properly. According to him, they confronted him on this, he mouthed off at them, and they just let him go about his business, and the local church prospered as a direct result of him. He was known for building a fairly interesting sermon, and getting people involved, including the youths. (This was STILL before the time when he claimed he believed the Bible was the Word of God.) He said the following year, (1942) he slowly became discouraged and was searching. He was still the man he had been, which is to say he was prideful, arrogant, boastful, liked attention, and viewed the clergy as a PROFESSION and not a holy calling. (He could have been just as "called" as an accountant or actuary, say.) During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister. About a year later (Payne, 1942, August), he met Rosal1nd R1nker. She was a former missionary to China and Korea. She's remembered as the anonymous person who asks vpw "Why don't you search for the greatest of all things in life which would teach Christians the HOW of a really victorious life?" This woman fixed a great deal of attention on him, and had a forceful personality. She spent some time with him alone. It was of this time that he later claimed he asked forgiveness of God. He also credits her with DOGGING HIM "on the Bible being the Word of God", and she "got me STARTED on the right track". which, until this time, he hadn't believed, not even in all his years of school. During 1942, he claimed he was ready to give up being a minister in August AND September. One month later (September 1942), an event happened that he later showed a habit of re-writing. As Victor told God he was getting ready to quit (again), He claimed that God spoke to him and said He (God) would teach him (Victor) His Word (God's Word) like it had not been known since the 1st century, if he (Victor) would teach it to others. (This is the famous 1942 promise.) vpw did not discuss this event with anyone until he told the early corps-according to Mrs W. Thus, the earliest possible origin-point of this story is 1969, when the "zero corps" was begun. Victor of course lacked the education in church history to contextualize this claim- since it was inaccurate as stated. This implies that this was a made-up story, or it came from a god lacking knowledge in history. Victor later added a second part to his story- a snowstorm. He said that he required PROOF of God, and asked God to let him see it snow. A moment later, he opened his eyes, and he saw a veritable blizzard out his window. The later addition to this story suggest that he felt it needed more support after using the initial story. Victor showed no marked improvement, neither in character, nor in behaviour, thru the rest of the 1940s (nearly the entire decade after this supposed promise), which strongly supports the rather direct assertion that he lied thru his teeth. vpw referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. October 3, 1942, vpw did his first radio broadcast. He continued to do a radio show under one name or another for several years- Vesper Chimes, aka Chimes Hour Youth Caravan. Its name changes to Chimes Hour Youth Caravan in 1947. Rhoda joined its staff in 1947. (Supposedly, the name "the Way" was in the documentation for this group since 1942.) In 1948, vpw was issued a "Doctorate" from Pikes Peak Seminary, an organization lacking accreditation and formal classes (among other things.) At some point, vpw began claiming that he took EVERY class Moody Bible School's Correspondence program issued. According to official records at Moody, vpw never turned in a single class of their correspondence school. This may mean he took classes and never finished ANY (which indicates laziness), or that he was lying about taking any of their classes. At one point, Rufus Moseley attempted to minister Holy Spirit to vpw, but vpw demonstrated an inability to receive it. In 1951, he visited missionaries in Honduras. In 1951, vpw made another claim he was ready to give up on the ministry (even after, supposedly a direct promise of God about really important stuff which promptly failed to materialize.) In November, 1951, vpw attended the Full Gospel Rally, in Tulsa, Oklahoma (a big Evangelical conference.) He made several claims of this conference. People at the conference OTHER than vpw supposedly had no difficulty beginning speaking in tongues. He claimed he faked speaking in tongues in a clever way, and others were unable to tell. He was further disillusioned about working for God. He then claimed a miraculous snowstorm blocked him into the city entirely, and ALL the evidence there NO blizzard whatsoever (and there was a WEALTH of evidence -at the airports, Amtrak and bus depot, the hotel staff, the attendees, etc) was concealed by angels. vpw also, apparently, never approached a window, or they made an illusion at the window. vpw has referred to this as one of the two most significant days of his life. (Many people currently feel that vpw completely made up the story that God spoke to him in 1942, and that his dependence upon this event plus the event at the Full Gospel Rally to establish his authority were both dressed up with made-up snowstorms to make them sound more spectacular. The specifics of both appear to support this position-especially since vpw was fond of increasing the magnitude of his claims in things as time went on.) Supposedly, a woman came up to him and told him that she knew a man who can help him- JE Stiles. He claims God told Stiles to attend the conference with the sole purpose of ministering the Spirit to vpw. vpw met with Stiles, and made a few chauvinistic observations to himself, before going off with Stiles. Stiles worked with him for a few hours nonstop, hammering across to vpw what the Bible says on speaking in tongues, and working over his doubts one by one. Finally, vpw was able to speak in tongues. It was during the 1950s that vpw's behaviour was noted to finally improve, although he still did not stop including inappropriate words or concepts in his sermons. In March, 1953, vpw found out about BG Leonard, and pushed his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard told him was closed, but permitted him to enter after vpw arrived. vpw took this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. (That second time was July 1953.) vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then ran the first of "his" Receiving the Holy Spirit Today classes, (October 1953) and took a photograph of that class. He told the students that this is "his" class called RtHST, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content had been directly lifted. The students had no reason to think he's lying. vpw sent the photograph to Leonard and told Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard took vpw at his word, and had no idea that vpw continued to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. That the classes were interchangeable in terms of material was the opinion of vpw himself- anyone who had graduated Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class was considered to be-by vpw- a graduate of "vpw's" RtHST class. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. He also renamed the class "Power For Abundant Living", rather than "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". vpw later made a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) It is often noted that the supposed 1942 promise claimed vpw would be taught-by God- things unknown since the First Century Christians, if vpw would teach others- yet ALL the material vpw taught was all taken from Leonard/Stiles/Bullinger/Kenyon and a few others, and thus, it was all KNOWN. Therefore, if a god gave vpw revelation in 1942, it was a god that lied, since vpw's source for everything was MAN and NEVER represented information lost since the First Century AD-not even once. In 1953, vpw also took JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changed a few words, and self-published it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." That it was the same year is no coincidence-it was the "original" textbook for the "original" class. ("Original" in the sense that they were the 1.0 version of his class, not that they originated at that time.) Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book. Among the changes was the deletion of a reference to an anonymous Christian who "put it together" for vpw (that was Stiles), who was missing by the 4th edition book, where vpw put it all together himself. vpw ran "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. Dr E.E. Higgins was one of the students in the October 1953 class. She's known as the anonymous person who would call vpw at night and ask what God showed him that day. In 1954, Dr Higgins first introduced vpw to EW Bullinger's books, and gave him his first copies of the Companion Bible, and "How to Enjoy the Bible." The contents of both these books later became integral parts of "vpw's" class. According to his published memorial, Bishop KC Pillai took PFAL in 1954, and began teaching a class on"Orientalisms of the Bible". (Pillai also wrote 3 small books: "Light Through an Eastern Window" and Volumes I and II of "Orientalisms of the Bible.") According to the memorial in 1985, 1955 was the year they officially chartered "the Way". In 1955, JP was born. 2 months later, VPW left JP with family for the next year or so, and took his wife and eldest son on a tour of the mission fields in India, on the Evangelical and Reformed Church's dime.(1955-1957) (Per TW:LIL) He was irritated that he's reminded he is not officially designated as a spokesman or investigator of theirs. According to his account in TW:LIL, he there met Bishop KC Pillai, whom he later invited to teach. According to the memorial, this tour of the mission fields ran from 1955-1956, and included stops in Great Britain, Europe, India, and "the Bible lands." According to the memorial, 1956 was when he wrote "the Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India."(According to TW:LIL) In 1957, vpw returned to Van Wert. He cut his ties with the Evangelical and Reformed Church, and took "his" PFAL class with him.In 1957, he and Harry bought out their brothers and bought the family farm outright. Rather than take ownership themselves, they declared it the propertyof "the Way", a church organization (thus tax-exempt.)(Per TW:LIL, Harry said this was the time they chose the name "the Way".) Work began on fixing up the farm. In 1959, he ran a Wisconsin Summer Camp. In 1960, he ran an Indiana Summer Camp. In 1961, he moved to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient for the move). Bishop Pillai arrived and taught at the summer school. (Per TW:LIL.) In 1961, he ran a Miamisburg, Ohio Summer Camp. In 1962, he moved the summer school to the farm (refurbishment being sufficient to hold classes there in the new BRC.) In 1962, Lamsa taught at the summer school.(Lamsa is another unconventional teacher who claimed special knowledge of the Bible and special status as a man of God.) In 1963, vpw went to Lima, Ohio and filmed the sessions called "the Teacher". (Despite this, success STILL had not taken off as vpw wished.) According to the memorial, 1967 was when "Are the Dead Alive Now?" (which is adapted from some of Bullinger's books) was published, and PFAL was filmed. This was the edition of PFAL that incorporated Bullinger's books (the contents, but not the books themselves) into the curriculum. In Fall of 1967, vpw first filmed the PFAL class. This was done in a setting with bright studio lights. (Bright studio lights do not cause cancer.) vpw claimed that a doctor told him that filming a second day would mean permanent eye damage, and that he was staring into 8000 watts. He filmed for 3 complete days, getting sore eyes from the bright lights (which do not cause cancer.) The figure of 2000 watts seems to be a more realistic figure for the light level of the filmed class (which is still VERY bright.) According to TW:LIL, In 1967, vpw read about the Christians at the House of Acts. vpw went there, impressed them, and convinced them he has extensive, EXCLUSIVE knowledge they lack. He then turned those he could from unorganized Christians into a recruitment arm for his class and organization. They agreed to handle things on the East and West coasts, and many young Christians were impressed with THEM and join. It's been suggested that one of the reasons he went there was because he'd heard of the "free-love" movement and wanted to connect with Christians who would have sex outside of marriage. Thus claim might sound ridiculous if his accounts of them didn't include little comments about their displays of affection-and especially since he'd asked one of them-back then and there-to give him DETAILS on what an orgy was like. He followed up by claiming that God PERMITTED orgies-but considered monogamy BETTER. It's also believed that San Francisco is where vpw bought the pornographic materials he showed the corps, some Advanced Classes and CFS classes-like the movie of the two women with the dog. (He MENTIONED that video to many Advanced classes and CFS classes where it was not SHOWN.) According to the memorial, his trip to Haight-Ashbury/House of Acts was in 1968. As of 1969, sizeable numbers of young people had flocked to twi from both coasts as a result. Once there was sizeable membership in both coasts, vpw pushed out the Christians from the House of Acts and insisted authority would come FROM hq and tithes would go TO hq. No exceptions. At that point (1969), vpw made his first attempt at a Way Corps, which resulted in the famous "Zero Corps". At some point-presumably early in the way corps history, and possibly as early as 1969, vpw (according to Mrs W's account) first begins to tell his "snow on the pumps" account to people, starting with the way corps. At another point-before the early 1970s-vpw began adding to the "special revelation" that produced the books and classes (which were really compilations of the work of other Christians with their names removed) and began speaking of special revelation about current events. He began to expound on some conspiracy theories to the corps, and about attempts to take over the United States. vpw was getting this material from the John Birch Society and the Liberty Lobby. A few people on-grounds were aware of information coming in from them, but almost nobody knew those were the direct sources of his supposed "revelation". As he had done often before, he just claimed to mysteriously know things and never cited a source-leaving the listeners to guess that there WAS no conventional source, making this ANOTHER thing God just told him. These conspiracy theorist organizations and their personal biases fill in the blanks in some of his odder statements. Their anti-Semitism helps explain his claims that the current Jews were not descended from the historic Jews (which has been disproven genetically since), and his recommendations of books like "the Thirteenth Tribe." Their condemnation of rock and roll and musician/celebrities explain his claims of all musicians being possessed, and his recommendation of "the Marxist Minstrels" to the corps (which claimed rock and roll was a communist plot to take over the United States.) vpw even had David Noebel, who wrote "the Marxist Minstrels" come and lecture the corps. In 1971, vpw began his WOW Ambassador program. This program underwent some changes, but primarily was a one-year committment to get sent out, support yourself, find housing, and run PFAL classes. According to his memorial, 1971 was when the Orange Book, "Power for Abundant Living" was first self-published. It contained mostly material from Leonard's class and from Bullinger's book "How to Enjoy the Bible". A number of pamphlets called "Studies in Abundant Living" accompanied the PFAL class from fairly early on (the filmed class names "Studies in Human Suffering", later renamed "Job:Victim to Victor".) In 1971, the first 3 volumes of "Studies in Abundant Living" are published, compiling the pamphlets into 3 small hardbound books. In 1974, Emporia College in Emporia, Kansas was bought. It was renamed "the Way College of Emporia". Despite an absence of accreditation, licensed professors, and a school "library" composed ENTIRELY of used textbooks donated by way members, it was put forth as if it is a normal, accredited college. In 1975, "Jesus Christ is Not God" was published. This was the last book- not counting Vol 4 of Studies in Abundant Living- that was actually put together by vpw. In 1976, campuses were purchased in Rome City, Indiana ("the College of Biblical Research") and Gunnison, Colorado ("the Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison"). In 1977, the PFAL '77 was done live at Ball State University. According to the memorial, in 1977, Howard Allen and Donald Wierwille were installed as Trustees on the Board of Trustees (replacing "Uncle" Harry Wierwille and Ermal Owens.) In 1977, Volume 4 of Studies in Abundant Living was published. In 1978, the land for the LEAD Outdoor Academy was purchased in Tinnie, New Mexico. In 1979, Advanced Class '79 ran (live, I imagine.) In 1980, "Jesus Christ Our Passover" was published. This was the first book written by competent staff and researchers. According to the book itself, it was written "by Victor Paul Wierwille", with no mention of anyone else. It was a higher-caliber book than twi normally self-publishes. In 1982, twi celebrates its "Fortieth Anniversary" since the radio shows that weren't called "the Way". In 1982, vpw installed LCM as the new president of twi and vpw becomes "president emeritus". In 1982, "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" was published. It also was written by staff, and said "by Victor Paul Wierwille" on the cover. It relied largely on the calculations of another writer as well. This book also saw the breakthrough of proper crediting, since it actually named the other writer (Martin) and his book. In 1984, a live PFAL class was taught at Camp Gunnison, and a manor house was purchased in Gartmore, Scotland. It was named the Way College of Biblical Research. (aka Gartmore House, or "the big house" to the villagers of Gartmore.) vpw spent his life drinking alcoholic beverages and smoking cigarettes and cigars- tobacco products. Although he usually did it "off-camera", many people knew some of this. Everyone knew he at least smoked, but he seemed to chain-smoke when "no one was watching." Furthermore, he had a "coffee cup" next to him for morning meetings and so on-and often, the contents had nothing to do with coffee. Those who ever commented on it (who were few enough among those who noticed) were treated to his comments about us not being "under condemnation" and thus it wasn't sinful, and therefore had no consequences. However, there WERE consequences.... By 1984, the long-term exposure to alcohol-which damages internal organs, including those that act as the body's filtration system and also damages the brain- and long-term exposure to tobacco-which is a known cancer-causing agent (unlike studio lights)- resulted in some permanent damage to vpw' body. He acquired cancer of the eye and liver, and suffered a stroke. vpw quite vocally-and often- announced that the eye damage was the result of getting cancer from the studio lights used when filming PFAL- thus saying it was the result of virtuous activity, and used to give the students a guilty conscience. Once, when addressing the corps, he was speaking on personal committment to God. He said "I gave my EYE-what are YOU willing to give?" Further, in private, vpw was MOST disturbed that he had ANY physical problems, especially this one. He claimed he'd never been sick or needed an aspirin EVER- not ONE DAY in his life-before this. Not even in PRIVATE did he ever seem to admit he'd exposed his body to carcinogens for DECADES. He had surgery that removed the cancer-stricken eye. The details of the stroke were COMPLETELY hidden-although there were witnesses- and the existence of any cancer produced a problem. According to vpw's DOCTRINE, any Christian should be able to believe sufficiently to burn out a cancer from their body. vpw had slowly manipulated his personal image to the point that he was frequently seen as some sort of super-Christian-which is what he wanted. However, this meant he should have EASILY believed away his cancer. WORSE, he'd taught in the Advanced class that, since a cancer has a life of its own (like algae), it must be the result of devil activity. Since vpw was supposedly a super-Christian, he should have been able to deflect such an assault easily. However, rather than adjust his image, or correct his doctrine-which had already hurt many other Christians-he simply hid the cause of his descent into death. In 1985 the "Word over the World Auditorium" opened at the organizations hq on the farm. vpw died May 20, 1985 at age 68. According to his death certificate, the cause was cancer of the liver and of the eye. According to most people in twi at the time, the cause was UNKNOWN. The most commonly-stated reason was "he got tired of fighting." In the last few months of his life, vpw visited Gartmore and spoke privately with Chr1s Ge*r. He (CG) later claimed that his own paper which he wrote afterwards-"the Passing of the Patriarch"-was based entirely on private conversations with vpw. (Some people believe him, some do not.) That paper-among other things-also claims that vpw would have been able to "believe himself healthy" if he'd wanted to. Volume 5 of Studies in Abundant Living was published posthumously. Its contents were from vpw, it was edited by Chr1$ Ge*r. =========

I love the post-but must make a correction or two. In the interest of completeness, here's how I described this in the 5.6 version of my vpw timeline... "In March, 1953, vpw found out about BG Leonard, and pushed his way into BG Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class, which Leonard told him was closed, but permitted him to enter after vpw arrived. vpw took this class twice, bringing several people with him the second time. (That second time was July 1953.) vpw then went off for a few months by himself, then told Leonard that he'd like to run Leonard's CTC Gifts of the Spirit class locally for his congregation on a one-time basis. Seeing the benefit to other Christians, Leonard agrees. vpw then ran the first of "his" Receiving the Holy Spirit Today classes, (October 1953) and took a photograph of that class. He told the students that this is "his" class called RtHST, with NO mention of Leonard's class from which 100% of the content had been directly lifted. The students had no reason to think he's lying. vpw sent the photograph to Leonard and told Leonard that this is a photo of the class that took Leonard's class on a one-time basis that was run locally. Leonard took vpw at his word, and had no idea that vpw continued to run Leonard's class with vpw's name on it, defrauding both Leonard AND the students. That the classes were interchangeable in terms of material was the opinion of vpw himself- anyone who had graduated Leonard's "Gifts of the Spirit" class was considered to be-by vpw- a graduate of "vpw's" RtHST class. To this day, many students STILL think this was was vpw's class, even when evidence is introduced to the contrary. Later, vpw added the contents of JE Stiles' work on "Gifts of the Spirit" and Bullinger's work on the Holy Spirit as well as "How to Enjoy the Bible", and expanded the class into a class that was the sum of the 3 men's work-Stiles, Bullinger and Leonard-rather than just Leonard. He also renamed the class "Power For Abundant Living", rather than "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today". vpw later made a few offhand comments here and there that the material in the class is not original, but its compilation was. (However, as it was constructed, vpw could have been sued by copyright holders for Bullinger, Stiles, and Leonard. Leonard found out but chose not to prosecute.) It is often noted that the supposed 1942 promise claimed vpw would be taught-by God- things unknown since the First Century Christians, if vpw would teach others- yet ALL the material vpw taught was all taken from Leonard/Stiles/Bullinger/Kenyon and a few others, and thus, it was all KNOWN. Therefore, if a god gave vpw revelation in 1942, it was a god that lied, since vpw's source for everything was MAN and NEVER represented information lost since the First Century AD-not even once. In 1953, vpw also took JE Stiles' "Gifts of the Spirit" book, changed a few words, and self-published it as the 1st Edition of "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." That it was the same year is no coincidence-it was the "original" textbook for the "original" class. ("Original" in the sense that they were the 1.0 version of his class, not that they originated at that time.) Later editions would include incorporation of material from Leonard and Bullinger, and would include more cosmetic changes in the order of the words and the specific words used in an attempt to make it look less like Stiles' book. Among the changes was the deletion of a reference to an anonymous Christian who "put it together" for vpw (that was Stiles), who was missing by the 4th edition book, where vpw put it all together himself. vpw ran "his" PFAL classes continually from 1953 onward, with some success. Dr E.E. Higgins was one of the students in the October 1953 class. She's known as the anonymous person who would call vpw at night and ask what God showed him that day. In 1954, Dr Higgins first introduced vpw to EW Bullinger's books, and gave him his first copies of the Companion Bible, and "How to Enjoy the Bible." The contents of both these books later became integral parts of "vpw's" class. And yes, I believe "carjacking" is an apt analogy for what he did to Leonard and Stiles (and later, Bullinger and Kenyon.)

This was too good not to have some fun with...

For Donna to have "distanced herself" from her husband, there would have had to have been a connection in the first place. Someone said this about Donna, who knew her personally. "My time with Donna was during the time period of 1978-80. At that time she was an arrogant, mean-spirited b*tch in her late twenties. She coveted after power....she explained to a bunch of us once that when she was 'husband-hunting', she had dated numerous top twi leaders, dropping names of 1st and 2nd corps guys. She said that when she got to craiggers, she knew he was the one. Why? Because she knew that he was going to 'the top' as she put it. She somehow knew that she was destined to be on the top rung of the twi ladder and she got herself there. It's almost like the story of MacBeth- ambition, power, money. She was willing to put up with lcm's adultery in order to maintain her position as 'first lady of twi'- it was a simple tradeoff. Her disgust with her husband was only exceeded by her own lust for power and position. Today, she probably feels like she 'earned' the right to live in the corps chalet for all the years of putting up with bozo. Of course, with her sexual orientation being in question, perhaps she is still 'earning' her position as 'first lady of twi'?" Someone else replied to that " "That's exactly what she told ME once in a conversation. She told me (this was late '70s) that she had decided years before she would do Whatever It Takes to 'get to the top'. She was totally committed to being a top hot dog (as they used to say.) She was very calculating. Although, back when she was young, to look at her, you never would have thunk it because at one time, she was a wonderful, compassionate person who truly did have a heart for people. In fact, I think it was that quality that helped get her to the 'top.' She is where she is now by deliberate, scheming decision." And here's what lcm himself said in his book... "LCM finally decided he needed to get married. He goes to Dr and lets him know his thoughts and seeking advice. Dr promised he'd look out for a good woman for him. Later, LCM decided to marry Donna and immediately told Dr. Dr said 'She's a good woman' and then rode off quickly on his motorbike. LCM found out later that he had gone at once to call Donna and talk to her to let her know and understand fully what she was getting into with LCM. He was going to be a great leader in the ministry and she had to be prepared to handle herself accordingly, etc." (For those curious, I pulled those quotes up before, to include in the "vp and me in wonderland" thread, http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic-8019 )

For variety, I thought I'd wonder what they'll write about next month, so I saved some time and wrote it. ""Because planning is a part of believing, the in-residence Way Corps develop skills in good, solid planning as part of their training. All of the students were involved in planning the trip to the office supply store this summer, thinking through the itinerary. They planned vehicles, shopping list, division of labour, finances, etc. An overall coordinator was chosen, and then assistants were assigned to coordinate the different groups responsible to plan various aspects of the trip. Organizational meetings with all of the in-residence Way Corps were held periodically. These meetings showed everyone the essential details that each group put into their piece of the plan--the details necessary to successfully carry out such an event from start to finish. One student writes, "In each category of planning, I learned that our plan had many variables within it. We had to consider how each portion of our plan is affected by other aspects of the plan, and how our portion affects other elements as well. We thought through these details and double-checked everything so that, to the best of our ability we did not miss anything. We also consistently sought counsel from one another, which was invaluable to our success."' " Now you don't even need to read the waymag to read the waymag! It's more fun than Mad Libs, and twice as fast!

And that's not even "39 students." That's 39 "people who signed up on myspace to discuss or read the board about the Advanced class". The actual number of people interested in taking it is smaller, and the number of people who plan to is smaller than that, and the number of people who will show is smaller yet. I'm figuring less than 10 people on that board will actually attend- remembering that it's unlikely that all attendees are on that board.

Here's my feedback on this. Keep in mind it's commentary on the current state of affairs, and not on anything else-past, present, future, fictional, etc. Right. Let's be generous and say it's a 25-person trip.(It's probably less than 20, but let's be generous.) They're in residence (where, BTW? I thought they were AT HQ. That would mean "travel" means "a brisk walk across grounds". *scrolls down* Oh, Colorado to Ohio. Must be the Camp Gunnison site.) They're planning a trip for the bunch of them. They planned: 1) vehicles 2) food 3) finances 4) routes 5) lodging Now, how much planning is involved with the vehicles? Figure out what you have, and what you need. One twi bus and you've got all the seating worked out FINE. Plus space for luggage. Or 2 passenger vans and one car. Or 4 cars above "compact" size. Make sure the cars run. How complicated is that? Food... packing a sack lunch? Packing supplies in general? Scheduling stops at a 7-11 to buy more stuff when gassing up? This takes HOW much planning? Finances... Figure out how much the other steps cost, double that, divide by the # of people, and make sure people each have that amount. One person with a calculator, tops. Routes... this is a fun part. Stare at the maps. Find the nearest interstates, and how to get on & off them. Make sure every driver has the plan, and a good map. Lodging... Motel on the way there? Straight drive thru? Stopping in a scheduled rest or campsite? Are they counting "reserve room at destination hotel" as part of this step? How tough is all this supposed to be? When in college, a bunch of us college types took trips from NYC to St Louis, Boston, Albany, Dallas and so on. And we worked all this out. With a variety of travel methods. And all the trips went off as planned. Complete with hotel rooms and stuff. This didn't require "special training" or anything. A series of meetings were run to handle each step. Committees studied each step before recommending a course of action, then carrying it out. There were meetings, planning meetings, and preplanning meetings. Are you sure you want to rush into that preplanning meeting without preparation? When we college kids planned, things were handled in ONE quick meeting as more of a 2-minute update, then we moved on to other items. These guys need entire meetings on this? With this much planning, I've RUN events, not gotten TO events. He needed to learn this?When I eat a fricking hot dog on the street there are variables (where to get it, what to put on it, what to drink.) They needed to train to learn "make sure everyone's on the same page and knows what we're doing"?

*checks* Chas was correct. You, I'm confident enough NOT to check at the moment. Your turn. :)

Is this the one you are referring to? HCW told me that vpw credited this one properly, but-like the one in the opening post- most of us never heard that. ====== "The Touch Of The Master's Hand" -------------------------------- 'Twas battered and scarred, and the auctioneer Thought it scarcely worth his while To waste much time on the old violin, But held it up with a smile. "What am I bidden, good folks," he cried, "Who'll start the bidding for me?" "A dollar, a dollar. Then two! Only two? Two dollars, and who'll make it three?" "Three dollars, once; three dollars, twice; Going for three..." But no, From the room, far back, a grey-haired man Came forward and picked up the bow; Then wiping the dust from the old violin, And tightening the loosened strings, He played a melody pure and sweet, As a caroling angel sings. The music ceased, and the auctioneer, With a voice that was quiet and low, Said: "What am I bid for the old violin?" And he held it up with the bow. "A thousand dollars, and who'll make it two? Two thousand! And who'll make it three? Three thousand, once; three thousand, twice, And going and gone," said he. The people cheered, but some of them cried, "We do not quite understand. What changed its worth?" Swift came the reply: "The touch of the master's hand." And many a man with life out of tune, And battered and scarred with sin, Is auctioned cheap to the thoughtless crowd Much like the old violin. A "mess of pottage," a glass of wine, A game -- and he travels on. He is "going" once, and "going" twice, He's "going" and almost "gone." But The Master comes, and the foolish crowd Never can quite understand The worth of a soul and the change that is wrought By the touch of The Master's hand. -- Myra Brooks Welch. ========== That was written in 1921.

Now, someone pointed out that a live class they took LATER did not include references to this. I shall clarify (repeating myself in the process.) vpw bought a film including 2 women and a dog engaging in sex acts. vpw taught the Advanced class live-on grounds at hq and other places. vpw taught the Christian Family & Sex class live-on grounds at hq and other places. When he taught them (most or all of them) live, he showed part or all of this pornographic movie. For BOTH classes. Even the wierwille defenders admit this-there were hundreds of witnesses. (Some sometimes respond that he showed them the deviant porn for a good reason. You can find that in the archives, too. For that matter, one claimed that vpw raped and molested corps women for their own good as well. I can point to the thread that's on pretty quickly.) When he put the class on TAPE like all the others, he did NOT include the dirty movie (AFAIK, he did not.) However, in BOTH taped classes (Advanced and CFS), he described the contents of the movie as quoted above. I sat thru the CFS class and tried to block out this mention-but it was there when I took it. (I took it more than once because I took EVERY class as often as I was able to attend any session.) The above quote was from a transcript of the Advanced class. So, are you going to say that ALL those who saw it run live in their classes are liars? How about ALL those-like me-who were in taped classes where it was described- prepared to call us-including me-liars? If you're going to do so, please do it now, outright and in the open! We like open dialogue here-we were UNABLE to get it in twi. Here's a side-question. If you're prepared to accept that ALL of us were, in fact, telling the truth, what was the relevance of movie of deviant porn in TWO different classes. A separate question is, why did he LAUGH at the end of the quote? I was twisting uncomfortably away from the subject in my mind, but it made him LAUGH. WHY did the deviant porn make the MINISTER laugh? Is this a normal reaction, an expected reaction, to deviant porn from a minister? And why does a minister show deviant porn to students- TWICE? (All twi'ers were expected to take ALL classes, and the corps sat thru both on grounds-as did the college division-not even counting any times they saw it "on the field.") I think these are questions that warrant REAL thought and a REAL answer.

Go ahead and review the archives. Women have said that he-PERSONALLY-raped them, or PERSONALLY drugged AND raped them. Eyewitnesses have interacted with women sent to "his office" (which was separate from all the buildings and was furnished completely as a bedroom), saw them leaving distraught, then kicked off grounds, and later put the pieces together. Eyewitnesses have interacted with people on-staff who were instructed to be ready and "counsel" women who had JUST been raped by vpw. In particular, the "Moneyhands" were mentioned as being old hands at that. Those who weren't "successfully counselled" were kicked IMMEDIATELY off-grounds, and their reputations were smeared, as in "never speak to her-she is possessed". Can't tell your story if nobody will hear you. At least one person who was part of the "cleanup crew" later confessed to knowing of this. A reliable witness reported that vpw-after having a few drinks- asked him to describe what an orgy is like- and told him that they were ok with God. Guy didn't put the pieces together until later. We have women who say he tried UNSUCCESSFULLY to get them to have sex with him, and they report the SAME lines used on them as the women he succeeded with. We have women who reported that their "From Birth to the Corps" autobiographies (MANDATORY papers) included a history of sexual abuse or assault. Many of those are the same women who were targeted for rape. It's not a big secret that victims of something one time are often easier to victimize later. Were the papers specifically used to find rape victims? One poster reported meeting vpw and Uncle Harry face-to-face for the first time-together- and Harry copped a feel off of her, out in the open, immediately. Women on OTHER websites have reported being raped by him. Ever read Schoenheit's paper on Adultery? Do you honestly believe it wouldn't have been necessary if vpw hadn't signed off on adultery and no-strings sex in the first place? Ever hear about "the Lockbox?" A number of insiders were told that this sort of thing were to be kept secret and never to be told to other twi'ers, even. Then there's things which escape my mind at this time. So, all or some of them are telling the truth...... ....or you're prepared to call dozens of people who have never met a bunch of liars. BTW, the victims who have come forth have been insulted and had people slander and vilify them online when they came forth. Some posters tried to silence them immediately. They came forth ANYWAY. So, since we've danced this dance before, I ask you: How many reports from victims, MINIMUM, will it take to convince you they're telling the truth? How many reports from bystanders and those who spoke to them just afterwards, MINIMUM, will it take to convince you that they're telling the truth? Please provide an exact number. Or, admit publicly that you may NEVER consider the testimony of the eyewitnesses sufficient even if HUNDREDS of them show up, because they're reporting something you do not WISH to hear? When he was alive, he did a very thorough job of concealing his tracksand silencing any discussion. If not for the internet, we STILL wouldn't know. But they DO relate to people who are alive and tell their stories NOW, and they have witnesses.....

Like this quote from the Advanced class on videotape? =========== "I have in my possession, a film, which I'm not gonna show ya, not because I'm afraid to show it to ya, it's just because I don't have time to do everything. But, I have a film of two beautiful ladies endeavoring to have intercourse with a German short-hair dog - eh, not a German - German shepherd, dog. And the damned dog's got more sense than the women, ya know. (laughter) They're workin' on him, they're masturbating him, they're sucking him, they're doing everything, pulling him up to 'em. The dumb dog's all the time working back, trying, but he wants to get away from 'em. Those two women are totally possessed, and - heh-heh." ========= That's regarding the film he mentioned in the CFS class AND the Advanced class (taped), and showed groups who took it LIVE, and some people confirmed he showed it when under-18s took them- which is a crime in the US. Or when he told lcm that he'd have to "loosen up sexually" or something else entirely?

And that particular tactic preceeded the GSC, and started as soon as women began sharing their stories- and especially when their stories all began fitting together.

Correct! (As if you didn't know.) It's included on "Best of Jethro Tull" but not on "Original Masters", which is a more complete "best of" EXCEPT for "the Teacher". Next turn is Ca_dreaming. I must have just beaten you to the draw when someone posted "Bungle in the Jungle", possibly my favourite Jethro Tull song. But you probably felt the way I did when someone posted an "Offspring" song-and I was sure nobody else would get it.

Please remember that you should properly download the pic to your hard drive, THEN upload the pic to an online gallery, because most sites hate "direct hotlinking" since they have a bandwidth limit for their site, and that gets used up when you link to the site and we open the page each time. Probably the EASIEST site to do that with is Imageshack, http://imageshack.us

You CHECKED the Album of Verse? If so, then-pending an account who specifically heard vpw claim OTHERWISE- I'll chalk this one up to a semi-exaggeration on my part. That is, vpw never attached his name to it, nor said "I wrote this." However, I'm still waiting for any indication that he gave ANY credit to this particular poem.

If vpw had set the example of actually practicing the contents of the books, then we'd not be having this discussion. A lot of stuff that looks good or is good was in print here and there. It sounds soooo Christian and accurate. The books were often FINE. However, vpw put the books out, then promptly did whatever he wanted, sometimes adding a drapery of a holy epithet to it. lcm TRIED to do it, but lacked the finesse to SUCCEED. The basic problem of "non-adherence" to what vpw said/wrote was at vpw's level. Since, apparently, Oldiesman attended meetings entirely in the books and never interacted with the meetings were all of us were exposed to otherwise- SNS, ROA, TOM, weekends at hq, corps, wow, and so on- his arguments are that the literal contents of the books don't say something, then it was NEVER TAUGHT and NEVER PRACTICED. Explains why there's such a complete disconnect between the teachings- live and on tape-that WE heard, and the ones HE heard.

Ok, if that was too easy, if one of you can shoot it down then?

Next song: "No man's an island and his castle isn't home, the nest is for nothing when the bird has flown.''