WordWolf

Hello! There's a sticky at the top of this forum titled "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe." It's got some advice for new arrivals. I'd recommend it. (Then again, I'm biased.) There's no universal consensus among posters, but most agree on basics concerning twi and so on. The "pfal" classes have not been run for years. lcm declared them an "old wineskin" and made up his own "wap" class (Way of Abundance and Power) which, by all accounts, is inferior to pfal in many ways. The wap classes are currently being used. Foundational, last I heard, was live in areas, since videos would show lcm, and he was kicked out for GETTING CAUGHT using the staff and corps women as a private harem. (In twi, getting caught is bad, but if you don't, then it's ok.) The local Foundational classes are taught by whoever's local. And require a minimum of 3 students, not 6 or 7. The Advanced class Specials are done twice every other year. They're not done on grounds, but at a hotel (all costs bourne by the students, all work done by the hotel staff, the corps, or local believers.) twi can't really emphasize outreach too hard because even the people in it are too apathetic to push the programs and stuff. CES (aka STFI) I can't tell you about, but they have their own subforum. Someone else will have to tell you about it. CES/STFI has some fans who post here, so responses will vary widely.

True. I'm used to thinking this is normal for twi, but it's BIZARRE for MOST church groups to not be able to get simple answers to basic questions like were posed here. Let's see, to try to answer the questions....

A few confessed, either that they were some of those who engaged in misconduct, or were part of the criminal cover-ups. Some (like the "Moneyhands") have never admitted to their role in cover-ups. (But we know anyway.) A few top people were out of the loop. (Ralph D, maybe a few others, plus people like Peter W who left before this was all in place.) Eyewitnesses reported that she had said, before meeting lcm, that she was going to marry a guy influential in twi. lcm's own "vp and me" reported that-when lcm thought about marrying Donna (read his account-it's cold, clinical, and he didn't really know her that well, TO HEAR HIM TELL IT), vpw went off to tell her A) lcm was thinking about marrying her B) lcm was going to be a top dog in twi. Eyewitnesses AFTER said Donna said she selected lcm because he was going to be up there in rank. Does one really need to be a detective to follow the arrows? For her, other things were secondary considerations. Political marriages often turn a blind eye to infidelity- among the unbelievers. Among Christians, this is shocking, but remember twi was more about cold business than about Christianity- when the inner circle was involved. About top women being unfaithful, there have been a few accounts- but none that I've read involved rape. (Doesn't mean there weren't any-just that I haven't read them and they're not as common if they exist.) As to lcm and his knee-jerk TERROR of homosexuality, perhaps part of it is due to his jock-athlete mentality. Perhaps it's due to a family member of his, who IS reported to be gay. (Who was never involved in twi and has not invited himself into these discussions.) Perhaps it's due to some inner fear that HE had some homosexual thoughts- although there's no evidence for that other than the tendency for some men with homosexual thoughts to viciously attack and demonize homosexuals. Perhaps it's because he felt at least partially emasculated that he was the top guy in twi, and in his own mind equal to the US President (like vpw put around about himself when he had the same office lcm now held), and yet he was unable to assert his masculinity sufficiently to overcome any lesbian acts in his OWN marriage. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. All are possibilities, some more likely, some less. Take your pick.

I'd say if there's 2000 ADULTS, that's the highest they can be now. (And I'm fairly confident they're below 2000 adults.) I'd believe 3000 people including all minors. However, minors who get older LEAVE. And they aren't bringing in any significant numbers of new people. Although they've chased off all but the most dedicated Kool-Aid drinkers, mostly. So the numbers are low, and have no means of rising, and the group hasn't risen as high as "zero population growth" since the late 80s. That means they've lost members pretty consistently until they plateaued down around their current numbers.

"Maverick"?

Well, NOW I would have gotten it, but I already disqualified myself earlier.

On the one hand, the talent pool is incredibly shallow. On the other hand, those who CAN be found must work under draconian conditions and incredible amounts of micromanagement by people with no background in media or entertainment whatsoever. Is there ANY chance any REAL entertainment could survive such a killing field?

I'm confident I haven't seen this one. In fact, upon bowing out, I can say with confidence that I honestly do not recall even hearing that this was filming, filmed, playing, on DVD, or on cable, nor have I ever seen even a billboard. Frankly, I'd dismiss this as an urban legend if you weren't asserting you've actually SEEN it.

Looks like we need some more help here....

Lurkers who haven't taken a turn recently, this is a gift-wrapped opportunity. Jump in there with an episode, from the original series, NextGen, DS9, or even Voyager or Enterprise. (But not the cartoon.) Let's see some new faces here!

"Dragnet"? Wait, "the Beverly Hillbillies"???????

It took this long? Right, and right. And last I heard, a 5-person wc was succeeded by 4 people. I think the current one may have leaped as high as 6 people in a sudden surge. Then again, I'm just rambling- I don't know if they went up to 6 at all.

Genesis 4:4:20-22 (KJV) "20And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. 22And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubalcain was Naamah." The first musician-and the first formal music, QED, was back in Genesis 4:21. Without any record of the songs played or sung, the only basis for making ANY comments on Jubal's music is either "genuine spiritual suspicion" or "grand bs", but I repeat myself.

"Seems"? It IS, brother! I know not "seems"!

If it was really Don's idea, I see there as being exactly three possible reasons for him thinking of it: A) As the only man left alive whom vpw ripped off, he wanted the chance for any one of them to attend, thinking that they were entitled to attend, for some noble reason. B) lcm was already drifting into his fog, and Don concluded that the fastest way to get him out was to introduce another Christian leader, and let lcm's jealousy, envy, possessiveness and pettiness drag him out of his lethargy. Unless lcm was ALREADY in his fog, this isn't likely. Was lcm ALREADY in his fog in August 1985? C) Don KNEW that Leonard was the real deal. Don KNEW who really taught the class vpw passed off as his own. Don KNEW that Leonard was the man he knew himself to be. Don KNEW that Leonard was the real deal. Don ALSO knew that lcm's main claims to leadership were a history of embracing anything vpw said, and an ability to shout like some high school coach. Compare the two side-by-side, and it's obvious which Christian any OBJECTIVE Christian would call a "teacher" and which they would call a "student." So Don may have brought him in as "the man who could save the ministry" by being the man everyone looked to-which would lead sooner or later into him being the official leader by acclamation. Anyone see any other possibilities?

Someone asked about this subject yesterday....

'Sunesis' are you saying that all true History ALL history centers around the Nation of Isarel? throughout the many Biblical Adminstrations? No, she said the answer to YOUR QUESTION was related to that. (If she does think all true history reflects that, she hasn't posted it.) It's difficult, but you can learn to accept it in time. A number of people on-site were well aware he was on their mailing lists, and had a hotline he would call periodically for information, and so on. That's where "revelation" like the 1976 takeover of the US came from, and twi's Y2K PANIC, and the "the Pope has an aircraft carrier" garbage under lcm and on and on.... Correct- God did not promise vpw. First of all, vpw's report of what happened that day in 1943 was never spoken until the early 1970s. NEVER to anyone else. Not even the Mrs the day it happened. Second of all, his accounts of what happened that day kept changing- what he said to God, whether or not he demanded proof, how it looked when he saw snow.... all those changed in different accounts. Third of all, the claim was that God would teach vpw God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century", which is a claim that is dependent upon the hearer being as ignorant of "First Century" history as vpw was and presumed his hearers to be. In the First Century AD- before Gutenberg invented his printing press- God's Word as known was the Torah- the Old Testament. It wasn't until the SECOND Century AD that enough handwritten copies of the New Testament Gospels, Letters, Acts and Revelation were distributed for Christians to "know" them. What vpw taught didn't reflect their lack of copies of the New Testament. Either he invented that claim, or the promise came from an ignorant god. Fourth of all, vpw didn't teach the First Century church in ACTION. REALLY look at Acts sometime. They were SHORT on documentation. REALLY short on books. There was a lot of prayer, considerable deliverance, and a level of NORMAL miracles everyday such that the SPECIAL miracles with Paul went beyond them. Authority was de-centralized, money was distributed among the poor as they had need, everything was local, nothing was official, the few "leaders" travelled, dealt with things in a "hands-on" fashion, and lived simply. Compare that to twi. HEAVY on reading, reading, reading. Deliverance levels painfully shy of Acts. Authority was all concentrated to vpw, money funnelled to vpw- even when he had to trash the Way East and Way West and stop local use of cash to do it. LITTLE was local, EVERYTHING was official, the "leaders" stay in one spot and enjoy their luxuries as you travel to them on your dime, and their involvement is anything but personal- just a handful of verses, and some micro-management. Fifth of all, the supposed promise was predicated on the concept that there was information that was UNKNOWN from 101 AD- 1943, and God Almighty would supply that information to vpw. Few people who've been at the GSC awhile can't trace the sources of vpw's information. Some came from BG Leonard and his class, some came from JE Stiles, his book and his direct teaching, some came from EW Bullinger's books, some came from EW Kenyon and his books. (If you used your initials, vpw would plagiarize freely from you.) EVERYTHING HE TAUGHT WAS ALREADY KNOWN AS OF 1943. So, this supposed "god" who promised him this should have known better. The supposed 1943 promise was a complete fabrication, composed of lie upon lie, predicated upon error, and propounded by the ignorance and high degree of trust of his naive listeners. (Those who want proof, SCROLL UP AND READ THE LAST SEVERAL PARAGRAPHS.) God works with His people. After seeing what I've seen, I think it is error to thinkthat God works with ANY "GROUP" as such. If there's Christians IN a group, God works with the Christians in that group. I don't think God's approached any Christian organization like he approached the nation of Israel and made a solemn covenant which he will honor (despite their rebellion) for His own names' sake. IS the Church Age coming to an end? It's ALWAYS been coming to an end. God will end it in his own time- be that in 20 minutes, 20 months, or 20 millenia. But every minute, we are closer to the end of that age, and to the Apocalypse. This affects nothing- you should be doing the same no matter which timeframe God's got in the works. "Jesus is coming- look busy."

Well, they progressively ran off all the people who WANT to think for themselves every few years, intentionally or no. Those they have left are the "diehards" the ones that won't escape even with a ropeladder lowered from a flying chariot being driven by Jesus Christ himself. They're either convinced they're gaining benefits worth the hassle, which won't vanish in the wind, or they're afraid the world outside twi is worse than the world INSIDE twi. Yes, it's approaching all the freedoms the rest of the Christian world enjoys. But supposedly, it's still better than all the rest. Here, have some Kool-Aid.

Preacher, are you part of some religious order or something that requires you to cut-and-paste the EXACT SAME WORDS FOR SEVERAL PARAGRAPHS for the first 1/2 of EVERY SINGLE POST you make here? You can shove all that into your profile, or in a "my story" thread, and post a link to it for the curious. Otherwise, you're discouraging people from reading the whole post, especially since they've read it before. Since you thought it was important enough to post, I expect you'd consider it important enough to read. Posting it the way you're doing now is interfering with that. And whether or not I agree with you on anything, I don't want anything interfering with whether or not I can read your posts properly.

Well, the ones I've known do.... Both in internal consistency, and in not committing felonies and just trying not to get caught.

I'll agree with all of that. I can't disagree with your experience.You received benefit, and acknowledge not everyone did. That matches my own experience in both respects. A number of ex-corps have said much the same, and it's comparable to what many of us non-corps have said. I agree about the acquaintances, and I agree it's of benefit to discuss new ideas, even when I disagree with the conclusion. Therefore, I find this thread of merit either way. Since I'm a guy, I didn't meet a husband anywhere, so I can't match your experience on that one.

For those arriving late, the standard in God's Word that advocates things like NO SEX IF YOU'RE NOT MARRIED TO THE PERSON, and ONLY MARRY ONE SPOUSE, which 99.999999% of the Christian world has no difficulty understanding (whether or not they actually OBEY this, they understand they're acting against Scripture) has been transformed in Mikean theology. There, the injunctions which were even given in the CFS class by vpw HIMSELF are morphed into a "societal-cultural" set of rules rather than Biblical ones. Why do they suddenly lose their authoritative status? Well, Mikean theology is all about elevating books with vpw's name on them, and tapes with vpw teaching on them- and downgrading any actual BIBLES in comparison. The word of vpw is the NEW word of God, and the word of the creating thing has replaced the Word of the Creator, and labelled accordingly as the word of that Creator. In the process, vpw gets elevated to the status of a demigod, someone who strides the earth and shapes destiny, someone, who, to quote Mike directly, was "born with an overabundance of brains and brawn", someone "overgifted", someone who "when he walked, the earth shook." (Those are direct quotes, mind you, not ironic paraphrases.) So, vpw has to be ABSOLVED or EXONERATED of all evil deeds he performed. So, when vpw did something, and the Bible disapproved, according to Mikean theology, THEN THE BIBLE IS WRONG AND VPW IS RIGHT. Having been unable to wish away all the accounts of the witness and victims, and unable to justify the rapes, questionably-consensual sex initiated by vpw, and the drugged rapes as "attempts to toughen up the corps spiritually", Mike has labelled them as perfectly-acceptable behaviour, which means vpw was right, which makes the Bible WRONG. Therefore, when God says "don't have sex with your brother's wife", Mike labels that a societal rule, not a rule from God, and the injunctions get downgraded to "societal-approved sex". Since some people keep claiming things like "vpw never did it", "the women all wanted it", "it was for their own good", the more conscientious GSC posters feel it is necessary to wade into the same tired-old discussions and point out, once again, that vpw's actions were sinful. It gets tiresome to have to keep reposting on the same subject- but some people are determined to whitewash the truth, and rewrite both the past and the present, sacrificing truth to salve their own conscience. In the case of the Mikean belief system, "societal-approved sex" is not a god, but vpw-worship IS. Thus the need to turn God's instructions into a society-based set of rules and removing God Almighty from the picture. For the reasons mentioned above, likewise, Mike has attempted to make all ofvpw's criminal actions-including the felonies of multiple plagiarisms- perfectly acceptable activities. After attempts to say vpw never plagiarized, and that it was acceptable for scholars to do so went flat, he went on to "God told him to plagiarize", which is where he's at now. Since some people-like Mike-keep insisting either that vpw didn't plagiarize, or that it's perfectly acceptable or persist in perpetuating completely false meanings of plagiarism, it becomes necessary for the more conscience-driven GSC posters to repost and set the record straight, over and over and over... monotonous, but with posters (often the SAME posters) keep acting to popularize falsehoods, it becomes necessary to repost to keep things honest. vpw went out of his way to violate copyrights AND to plagiarize on a grand scale, while making sure all "his" books had copyright notices on them. That's illegal AND hypocritical. However, since vpw did it, Mike has to "anoint" it as holy and sacred- so long as vpw did it. Mike thinks it's idolatry to report the truth about vpw's plagiarism, but that it's NOT idolatry to consider vpw's "writings" sacred, and his actions sacrosanct. Thus, his claim that OTHERS have made false gods- of reporting rapes and reporting plagiarism- fall a little flat in the ears of many people even slightly familiar with Mikean theology. For Mike, who operates under the umbrella of vpw reverencing and devotion, his regard for what is any criticism of vpw, no matter what the evidence and the backing of Holy Scripture- is that such criticism is a sin and totally unforgiveable. LoneWolf, unless you're ready to proclaim the Bible as everyone knows it DEFUNCT(ignoring all the historical/archeological data of the last CENTURY), and vpw's "books" as a new Bible, Mke will consider you unreachable with any "reasonable appeal." His gods won't allow any other position. In other words, if vpw did it, it was ok. If it contradicted what vpw did, it's not civilized, loving or thoughtful. Oh, and vpw stamps a copyright on plagiarized materials, that's fine. vpw plagiarizes materials of others, that's fine. Plagiarizing vpw, now THAT'S wrong. And it's time for the commercial...

The books: "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century", by Arthur R. Butz, "The Myth of the Six Million," by David L. Hoggan, "The Thirteenth Tribe, " by Arthur Koestler.

I call "shenanigans" on that. They were saying that back when nobody'd ever HEARD of Colin Powell. And a search for this saying or anything like it came up blank. The copyright on his only book is 1996. Which means vpw, who died in 1985, was quoting a book that came out 11 years after he died. Neat trick. Bushwah, I say.