WordWolf

no kidding ? we all should have gotten straight A's if that was the standard. LMAO.... I, for one, am curious how well vpw-the REAL one and not the idealized, idolized image many people built up of him-would have held up to this standard. I'm guessing it included things like the 2-drink maximum, regular exercise, witnessing to people, and so on, since those are things the corpse was expected to do.

Why do I ever think lcm even came up with the STUPID things on his own? He couldn't even make up the MORONIC sayings on his own! The phrase "athletes of the spirit" was ripped off the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.... Here's something I just found when I remembered the EXACT way the sentence went..... ================================== This is from the Official Website of the Baltimore Ravens, http://www.baltimoreravens.com September 2, 2002. GASH ADDS TO RAVENS' POWER SURGE. By Adam H. Beasley. Sam Gash has a brutally simple philosophy to playing foorball. "Go until you hear glass break," Gash said. That's the goal. That truly is the goal. I think that's what Alan [Ricard] does and that's what I've been doing for a while." Gash, the 11th-year fullback who re-signed with the Ravens over the Labor Day weekend, has made his name in the NFL with that ethos. Now, he's trying his best to pass it along to his successor. =========================================================== I STILL don't know what it means, but at least now I suspect it has something to do with being a run-blocker in football.

I'm not sure that that was dumb. In a lot of cases, it's quite true. It was "Weakness ALWAYS brings down strength." Often, when you spot qualifiers like "every time", "always", "never", or "none", you spot an error right next to it.

Mark and Avoid/M & A: started by lcm in his 1989/1990 "line in the sand". It's the process of kicking out a dissenter and trying to pretend they don't exist. It's based on a twisting of one verse in Romans. (In the Jehovah's Witnesses, this is called being "disfellowshipped".) Christmas: Trick question. Jesus was born in September. The holiday named for attending mass in honour of his birth (Christ Mass, like Candlemas) was, according to lcm, named instead for the killing of the innocents by Herod, the massacre. Therefore, lcm has called it "Christ massacre", among other things. Like most holidays, it was renamed-in this case, Household Holiday, or "Ho-Ho". Easter: Known in twi as Resurrection Sunday. Uncle Harry Day/Burn the Chaff Day: named after vpw's brother Harry. It was started as a day to destroy anything interfering between you and God, which is set afire. Can include books as well as slips of paper with personal issues written on them, or anything you can idolize, really. Cancer: as explained by vpw in his pfal advanced class, cancer involves the presence of a devil, as it "has a life of its own". (So does a fungus.) This made it a major embarassment when vpw got cancer, so his illness and cause of death were kept a secret from the rank and file. (corrected Harry's connection.)

Mark and Avoid/M & A: started by lcm in his 1989/1990 "line in the sand". It's the process of kicking out a dissenter and trying to pretend they don't exist. It's based on a twisting of one verse in Romans. (In the Jehovah's Witnesses, this is called being "disfellowshipped".) Christmas: Trick question. Jesus was born in September. The holiday named for attending mass in honour of his birth (Christ Mass, like Candlemas) was, according to lcm, named instead for the killing of the innocents by Herod, the massacre. Therefore, lcm has called it "Christ massacre", among other things. Like most holidays, it was renamed-in this case, Household Holiday, or "Ho-Ho". Easter: Known in twi as Resurrection Sunday. Uncle Harry Day/Burn the Chaff Day: named after vpw's brother Harry. It was started as a day to destroy anything interfering between you and God, which is set afire. Can include books as well as slips of paper with personal issues written on them, or anything you can idolize, really. Cancer: as explained by vpw in his pfal advanced class, cancer involves the presence of a devil, as it "has a life of its own". (So does a fungus.) This made it a major embarassment when vpw got cancer, so his illness and cause of death were kept a secret from the rank and file. (corrected Harry's connection.)

Adultery: a subject barely addressed in twi. See John Schoneheit's paper, in the GSC documents section. Behind the scenes, it was said by leaders that it was fine so long as you were "spiritual enough to handle it". Abortion: (see adultery). According to twi, a subject the Bible neither endorses nor condemns. twi claimed to have no policy on abortion. However, the implications of what they DID say were that it was not against the Bible, therefore permissible. They teach that, until the child takes his/her first breath, he/she is not technically alive, and it's not murder. (By implication, there's nothing wrong with "killing" him/her at before that.) Some people see a connection between twi's stance on adultery and on abortion, since abortion's a "convenient" way for an serial adulterer to cover his/her tracks. Women who were currently in the way corpse were pressured in various ways to NOT carry a child to term, since it would be a distraction and inconvenience to the program. "Hunt Close"-a book on training hunting dogs. It basically advocates rewarding the dog for doing what you want, and pummelling him when he misbehaves. vpw recommended this book for people raising dogs, and people raising children. "Myth of the Six Million"-a book claiming the Holocaust was wildly exaggerated. Recommended by vpw and carried in the way bookstore. "The Thirteenth Tribe"-a book claiming that modern "Jews" are in no way connected genetically to Jews in the Bible. "Judean"-term used in twi to refer to Jews. Antisemitism: A doctrine not officially endorsed by twi. However, seemed to fit harmoniously with vpw's statements about the Holocaust, recommended books, etc. "Bless Patrol": on-grounds twi personnel designated for security.

Adultery: a subject barely addressed in twi. See John Schoneheit's paper, in the GSC documents section. Behind the scenes, it was said by leaders that it was fine so long as you were "spiritual enough to handle it". Abortion: (see adultery). According to twi, a subject the Bible neither endorses nor condemns. twi claimed to have no policy on abortion. However, the implications of what they DID say were that it was not against the Bible, therefore permissible. They teach that, until the child takes his/her first breath, he/she is not technically alive, and it's not murder. (By implication, there's nothing wrong with "killing" him/her at before that.) Some people see a connection between twi's stance on adultery and on abortion, since abortion's a "convenient" way for an serial adulterer to cover his/her tracks. Women who were currently in the way corpse were pressured in various ways to NOT carry a child to term, since it would be a distraction and inconvenience to the program. "Hunt Close"-a book on training hunting dogs. It basically advocates rewarding the dog for doing what you want, and pummelling him when he misbehaves. vpw recommended this book for people raising dogs, and people raising children. "Myth of the Six Million"-a book claiming the Holocaust was wildly exaggerated. Recommended by vpw and carried in the way bookstore. "The Thirteenth Tribe"-a book claiming that modern "Jews" are in no way connected genetically to Jews in the Bible. "Judean"-term used in twi to refer to Jews. Antisemitism: A doctrine not officially endorsed by twi. However, seemed to fit harmoniously with vpw's statements about the Holocaust, recommended books, etc. "Bless Patrol": on-grounds twi personnel designated for security.

You may not want to argue it, but this IS a doctrinal issue, and not "About The Way." You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. I, however, would like to know these unnamed "other scholarly writings" that you're basing your beliefs on. You could base them on the latest issue of Spider-Man if you really want to, but it would NOT be a sound basis for a belief. Similarly, there are more than a few books out there masquerading as scholarly writings, so you might want to know if you ARE basing your entire belief system on something far less credible than the Bible it seeks to undermine. What do I believe? I believe the Bible to be a credible account of Jesus' teachings and ministry, and I believe Jesus to be The Messiah, The Son of God. Well, you asked.

Right. The WayGB is a GSC term for the unnamed "thought police" of twi. Besides policing their ranks for subversives, they also read the GSC posts and chatroom, and maintain files on posters here in an attempt to "out" current followers ("innies") who post here anonymously. SIT: Speaking in tongues/speak in tongues. (Already explained.) "other Christians". All Christians except twi are to be viewed as utter incompetents who are shackled by their denominations' traditions and teachings. Also referred to as "churchianity". "would you be blessed to": Wayspeak. In English, "I want you to do the following..."

Right. The WayGB is a GSC term for the unnamed "thought police" of twi. Besides policing their ranks for subversives, they also read the GSC posts and chatroom, and maintain files on posters here in an attempt to "out" current followers ("innies") who post here anonymously. SIT: Speaking in tongues/speak in tongues. (Already explained.) "other Christians". All Christians except twi are to be viewed as utter incompetents who are shackled by their denominations' traditions and teachings. Also referred to as "churchianity". "would you be blessed to": Wayspeak. In English, "I want you to do the following..."

How did that go, Raf? "Every year, they gather together to refuse the Lord's Supper." Something like that.... Manof1000Names, The calculations are to make it look like you know something special and secret, that you have a shortcut to the Almighty, that you're on God's Speed-dial list. It works best if nobody can understand what you're saying. vpw did much the same by restricting access to his materials so no one could pay attention to that man behind the curtain. lcm's entire wap class was an exercise in this.

The Teacher. vpw used this term for himself, and encouraged others to do so (he used it in pfal, and it appears in the flyleaves of his books.) This, of course, implies he is either of superior caliber to all other teachers, or implies that he is the one and only teacher. Father in the Word. Another term used for vpw. GSC: the GreaseSpot Cafe. Where you're reading this. MOGFODAT: "Man of God For Our Day And Time." A GSC term for the never-to-be-articulated, but always strongly implied, concept that the President of twi was God's spokesman on earth, sort of like a pope. Sometimes simply "MOG"-same connotation, however. Pope: Head of the Roman Catholic Church. Often a target of tirades by vpw or lcm. The irony of their demands for what they insisted popes were not entitled to perpetually escaped them. moglet: a leader in twi who imitated as much as humanly possible about the reigning mog (haircut, hobbies), and went around all but barking out orders to those they considered underlings. charity-work: a concept totally nonexistent in twi. All expenses are to be paid for out-of-pocket by local members, and money, goods and services are very rarely, if ever, to leave the Root locales for any reason. Jesus Christ: the Messiah, whose involvement in things since the day of Pentecost is effectively limited to invoking his name in prayer and verses about him in the Bible. Members are not expected to look towards Christ, they are to look towards the MOGFODAT. (This is rarely, if ever, said aloud, but is implied and expected in varying degrees.)

The Teacher. vpw used this term for himself, and encouraged others to do so (he used it in pfal, and it appears in the flyleaves of his books.) This, of course, implies he is either of superior caliber to all other teachers, or implies that he is the one and only teacher. Father in the Word. Another term used for vpw. GSC: the GreaseSpot Cafe. Where you're reading this. MOGFODAT: "Man of God For Our Day And Time." A GSC term for the never-to-be-articulated, but always strongly implied, concept that the President of twi was God's spokesman on earth, sort of like a pope. Sometimes simply "MOG"-same connotation, however. Pope: Head of the Roman Catholic Church. Often a target of tirades by vpw or lcm. The irony of their demands for what they insisted popes were not entitled to perpetually escaped them. moglet: a leader in twi who imitated as much as humanly possible about the reigning mog (haircut, hobbies), and went around all but barking out orders to those they considered underlings. charity-work: a concept totally nonexistent in twi. All expenses are to be paid for out-of-pocket by local members, and money, goods and services are very rarely, if ever, to leave the Root locales for any reason. Jesus Christ: the Messiah, whose involvement in things since the day of Pentecost is effectively limited to invoking his name in prayer and verses about him in the Bible. Members are not expected to look towards Christ, they are to look towards the MOGFODAT. (This is rarely, if ever, said aloud, but is implied and expected in varying degrees.)

tithe: twi teaches that God requires a minimum of 10% given to twi. Without 10% minimum, "God won't even spit in your direction." -lcm Was later raised to 15% by lcm. Currently back to 10% I think. ABS: "abundant sharing: money given to twi in excess of the tithe. Plurality giving: subtracting all the money you need to live on right now, and giving all the rest of it to twi. "The Garden of Living Waters". A water fountain and scupture at HQ. vpw and the other dead trustees are buried nearby. the Way Woods. Woods at hq. Some deceased members had their ashes scattered there. Currently access to the site is tightly restricted by twi. "living at a needs level". Often a requirement for staff at twi, and recommended to followers (who are encouraged to plurality give the rest to twi.) Living at a 19th century standard of living, with no frills, no month-to-month savings, and eating on a college-student budget. People living at a needs level are familiar with making mac-and-cheese last, and eating foods like "familia". (Whatever that is.) At this level, pets are forbidden as a needless expense. The bot/bod, of course, is exempt from this level of "committment." "the household"-twi and its followers. According to twi, people who leave their organization walk out from under the protection of God Almighty. "greasespot by midnight".-lcm claimed that people who walked out on twi would be run over by the devil and be a "greasespot by midnight", something like a run-over animal. "cop-out"-anyone who left twi. phone hook-up: a phone/speaker connection to twi's phoneline for the Sunday Night Service. Since the late 90s, followers are generally expected to attend a phone hook-up, have a subscription to the SNS tapes of the same timeframe, listen to the tape once a week during another night, and have a teaching on the same subject during the week. (The current bod seems to think their followers have short attention spans.) spoon: instrument of torture at Root locales. Children are expected to be punished by any adult present by a whack with a wooden spoon, carried by the adults expecting to oversee kids. Children learn to fear that thing like Freddy Kruger or Jason Voorhees. Discipline: unquestioning loyalty even unto painful death. Husbands are supposed to have this for twi, wives to their husbands (even abusive ones), children to their parents (and by extension, adults running a meeting.) Independent thought contrary to orders is punished socially or literally, depending on the people and situation. homo purge: in the 1990's, lcm periodically expressed nearly paralyzing fears that there were spiritual dissidents in twi. He then set out on a witchhunt, and many people left or were forced out with either the label "homo" or "homo sympathizer". debt: a term that has had varied meanings in twi. By sometime in the 1990's, lcm declared that car loans and mortgages were debt, and forbidden. Members were expected to discard all of them in their lives. Members who refused were not in good standing and were restricted from certain functions. According to the current bod, twi has never had a policy on debt one way or the other. "international countries"-places other than the US where someone in twi is, even if it's a layover on a long plane trip. "chorus choir"-the singing chorus at hq. Clips of them can currently be seen on twi's website.

tithe: twi teaches that God requires a minimum of 10% given to twi. Without 10% minimum, "God won't even spit in your direction." -lcm Was later raised to 15% by lcm. Currently back to 10% I think. ABS: "abundant sharing: money given to twi in excess of the tithe. Plurality giving: subtracting all the money you need to live on right now, and giving all the rest of it to twi. "The Garden of Living Waters". A water fountain and scupture at HQ. vpw and the other dead trustees are buried nearby. the Way Woods. Woods at hq. Some deceased members had their ashes scattered there. Currently access to the site is tightly restricted by twi. "living at a needs level". Often a requirement for staff at twi, and recommended to followers (who are encouraged to plurality give the rest to twi.) Living at a 19th century standard of living, with no frills, no month-to-month savings, and eating on a college-student budget. People living at a needs level are familiar with making mac-and-cheese last, and eating foods like "familia". (Whatever that is.) At this level, pets are forbidden as a needless expense. The bot/bod, of course, is exempt from this level of "committment." "the household"-twi and its followers. According to twi, people who leave their organization walk out from under the protection of God Almighty. "greasespot by midnight".-lcm claimed that people who walked out on twi would be run over by the devil and be a "greasespot by midnight", something like a run-over animal. "cop-out"-anyone who left twi. phone hook-up: a phone/speaker connection to twi's phoneline for the Sunday Night Service. Since the late 90s, followers are generally expected to attend a phone hook-up, have a subscription to the SNS tapes of the same timeframe, listen to the tape once a week during another night, and have a teaching on the same subject during the week. (The current bod seems to think their followers have short attention spans.) spoon: instrument of torture at Root locales. Children are expected to be punished by any adult present by a whack with a wooden spoon, carried by the adults expecting to oversee kids. Children learn to fear that thing like Freddy Kruger or Jason Voorhees. Discipline: unquestioning loyalty even unto painful death. Husbands are supposed to have this for twi, wives to their husbands (even abusive ones), children to their parents (and by extension, adults running a meeting.) Independent thought contrary to orders is punished socially or literally, depending on the people and situation. homo purge: in the 1990's, lcm periodically expressed nearly paralyzing fears that there were spiritual dissidents in twi. He then set out on a witchhunt, and many people left or were forced out with either the label "homo" or "homo sympathizer". debt: a term that has had varied meanings in twi. By sometime in the 1990's, lcm declared that car loans and mortgages were debt, and forbidden. Members were expected to discard all of them in their lives. Members who refused were not in good standing and were restricted from certain functions. According to the current bod, twi has never had a policy on debt one way or the other. "international countries"-places other than the US where someone in twi is, even if it's a layover on a long plane trip. "chorus choir"-the singing chorus at hq. Clips of them can currently be seen on twi's website.

For the benefit of those new arrivals, as well as various lurkers, interested parties, and undocumented immigrants out there, I thought it would be nice to make a thread with some of the terms, acronyms and concepts connected with both twi and the GSC. Feel free to add any terms, but in the interest of keeping this useful, I ask you all, PLEASE PLEASE keep discussion and chatter off the thread if you can. Many thanks. Also, with the exception of, say, trustees, try not to post full names. =============================================== twi: The Way International. An organization supposedly organized for Biblical research, teaching and fellowship. vpw: Victor Paul Wierwille. Founder of twi. Teacher of pfal. Died 1985. Vesper Chimes: the organization preceding twi. 1952(1942?)promise/snowstorm: according to vpw, God promised him that if vpw would teach God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century if vpw would teach it to others. According to vpw, he asked God to confirm this by letting him see snow (it was a clear day). According to vpw, he opened his eyes to see a virtual whiteout, unable to see even the gas pumps across the street. pfal: Power For Abundant Living. vpw's classes, required for his organization. Foundational, Intermediate and Advanced levels, the Foundational was often referred to simply as "PFAL". vpw apparently copied almost the entire contents of the class from classes and books by BG Leonard, JE Stiles, EW Kenyon and EW Bullinger. "white book"/RTHST: "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." The book on Holy Spirit that was a pfal Foundational collateral book. Nearly 100% of its contents were taken (without citation) from Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger. "orange book": "Power For Abundant Living." The main textbook for the Foundational class. Borrows heavily from sources like Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and "Companion Bible." "Blue Book": "The Bible Tells Me So." First of four books of "Studies in Abundant Living" that also accompany the Foundational class in one way or another. "Green Book"/TNDC: "The New, Dynamic Church." Book two of four, S.I.A.L. TWW: "The Word's Way". Book 3 of 4, Studies in Abundant Living. GMW: "God's Magnified Word"-Book 4 of 4, Studies in Abundant Living. OMSW: "Order My Steps in Thy Word"-Book 5 of 4, Studies in Abundant Living. Edited and released after vpw's death. SNT: Sunday Night Tapes. Sermons available for purchase or subscription. TOM: Tape of the Month. A slightly more select set of sermons. GWT: Gartmore Weekly Tapes. Same as SNT, but came from Gartmore. WOW: Word Over the World Ambassadors. A one-year program, similar to mission work, elsewhere in the US (usually). WOWs are expected to run pfal classes and attract converts. Way Corps: 4 year program, 1 year WOW, 3 years at a Root locale. Consists of some Bible teaching and considerable micromanagement and busywork. Earlier classes had more freedom, later ones were nearly a prison sentence. Root/Trunk etc. twi uses a tree analogy. The permanent HQ locales were called Root locales (HQ outside New Knoxville, on the former Wierwille family farm, Way College- Emporia, Kansas, Way College of Biblical Research-Rome City, Indiana, Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison, Colorado, LEAD outdoor academy.) The Root locales are quietly being sold off, current number of remaining locales may be in flux. The Trunk is the Country level (USA). Regions cover several states. Limbs are states. Territories split up the state. Branches split up the territories. Twigs are the local Bible fellowships which meet in people's homes. (Other than Root locales, almost all events take place in homes.) bot/bod: Board of Trustees/Board of Directors. The people who run the show, supposedly, the only actual "members" twi has. The President effectively holds autocratic power. lcm: Loy Craig Martindale. vpw's successor, a graduate of the early Way Corps and later, Director of same. After vpw's death, this ex-athlete attempted (and failed) to fill his shoes with his own events. wap: Way of Abundance and Power: lcm's cheap ripoff of pfal. By all accounts, it is rambling, disjointed, and lacks the substance the former class had. Includes bizarre doctrines like "original sin was a 3-way with Adam, Eve and the serpent" (something like that.) Way Disciple: lcm's cheap ripoff of the WOW program. AOS: Athletes of the Spirit. lcm's 2-hour dance production attempting to use sports analogies to represent all aspects of the Christian's life. rfr: Rosalie Fox Rivenbark. The woman who replaced lcm when he was forced to step down as President due to sex scandals and lawsuits.

For the benefit of those new arrivals, as well as various lurkers, interested parties, and undocumented immigrants out there, I thought it would be nice to make a thread with some of the terms, acronyms and concepts connected with both twi and the GSC. Feel free to add any terms, but in the interest of keeping this useful, I ask you all, PLEASE PLEASE keep discussion and chatter off the thread if you can. Many thanks. Also, with the exception of, say, trustees, try not to post full names. =============================================== twi: The Way International. An organization supposedly organized for Biblical research, teaching and fellowship. vpw: Victor Paul Wierwille. Founder of twi. Teacher of pfal. Died 1985. Vesper Chimes: the organization preceding twi. 1952(1942?)promise/snowstorm: according to vpw, God promised him that if vpw would teach God's Word like it hadn't been known since the First Century if vpw would teach it to others. According to vpw, he asked God to confirm this by letting him see snow (it was a clear day). According to vpw, he opened his eyes to see a virtual whiteout, unable to see even the gas pumps across the street. pfal: Power For Abundant Living. vpw's classes, required for his organization. Foundational, Intermediate and Advanced levels, the Foundational was often referred to simply as "PFAL". vpw apparently copied almost the entire contents of the class from classes and books by BG Leonard, JE Stiles, EW Kenyon and EW Bullinger. "white book"/RTHST: "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today." The book on Holy Spirit that was a pfal Foundational collateral book. Nearly 100% of its contents were taken (without citation) from Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger. "orange book": "Power For Abundant Living." The main textbook for the Foundational class. Borrows heavily from sources like Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and "Companion Bible." "Blue Book": "The Bible Tells Me So." First of four books of "Studies in Abundant Living" that also accompany the Foundational class in one way or another. "Green Book"/TNDC: "The New, Dynamic Church." Book two of four, S.I.A.L. TWW: "The Word's Way". Book 3 of 4, Studies in Abundant Living. GMW: "God's Magnified Word"-Book 4 of 4, Studies in Abundant Living. OMSW: "Order My Steps in Thy Word"-Book 5 of 4, Studies in Abundant Living. Edited and released after vpw's death. SNT: Sunday Night Tapes. Sermons available for purchase or subscription. TOM: Tape of the Month. A slightly more select set of sermons. GWT: Gartmore Weekly Tapes. Same as SNT, but came from Gartmore. WOW: Word Over the World Ambassadors. A one-year program, similar to mission work, elsewhere in the US (usually). WOWs are expected to run pfal classes and attract converts. Way Corps: 4 year program, 1 year WOW, 3 years at a Root locale. Consists of some Bible teaching and considerable micromanagement and busywork. Earlier classes had more freedom, later ones were nearly a prison sentence. Root/Trunk etc. twi uses a tree analogy. The permanent HQ locales were called Root locales (HQ outside New Knoxville, on the former Wierwille family farm, Way College- Emporia, Kansas, Way College of Biblical Research-Rome City, Indiana, Way Family Ranch-Camp Gunnison, Colorado, LEAD outdoor academy.) The Root locales are quietly being sold off, current number of remaining locales may be in flux. The Trunk is the Country level (USA). Regions cover several states. Limbs are states. Territories split up the state. Branches split up the territories. Twigs are the local Bible fellowships which meet in people's homes. (Other than Root locales, almost all events take place in homes.) bot/bod: Board of Trustees/Board of Directors. The people who run the show, supposedly, the only actual "members" twi has. The President effectively holds autocratic power. lcm: Loy Craig Martindale. vpw's successor, a graduate of the early Way Corps and later, Director of same. After vpw's death, this ex-athlete attempted (and failed) to fill his shoes with his own events. wap: Way of Abundance and Power: lcm's cheap ripoff of pfal. By all accounts, it is rambling, disjointed, and lacks the substance the former class had. Includes bizarre doctrines like "original sin was a 3-way with Adam, Eve and the serpent" (something like that.) Way Disciple: lcm's cheap ripoff of the WOW program. AOS: Athletes of the Spirit. lcm's 2-hour dance production attempting to use sports analogies to represent all aspects of the Christian's life. rfr: Rosalie Fox Rivenbark. The woman who replaced lcm when he was forced to step down as President due to sex scandals and lawsuits.

Wow. Amazing how that pattern repeats so closely. Even down to the percentages. It's almost enough to make you believe there were devils involved in the evil actions of one, then went over and worked with the other. If one were to be so bold as to suggest that, I mean. "Dogmatic and abrasive." Yeah, that was our own little Angel Face, that was.....

I'm not the best one to ask, but here's the impression I got..... A) Starting time to early 80's...lots of people joined, more than left. B) early 80's to late 80's....vpw hands over organization to lcm, and a number of things happen, some of them due to a lack of confidence in that incompetent holding the reins. Membership, at its peak around 1979, begins to drop in areas, mostly from old-timers and higher-ups. Most members stick around. C) 1989-1990. Tired of the past few years, lcm draws a line in the sand and demands allegiance. 80% of the group leaves that year, with more to follow over the next year. D) 1990's. lcm's increasingly draconian policies kick some people out, and disgust some others so they leave. lcm's classes, inferior to vpw's classes, are unable to interest new people. Many more leave, very few join. E) 2000's. lcm was fired due to lawsuits. The internet has crippled twi's ability to draw new members without them knowing all the scandals. twi is largely trying to find ways to draw new members, but it's composed almost entirely of people 40 and older, with their children leaving twi at the first opportunity. They can't relate to young folk, and older folk can see they have nothing to offer. So, membership rolls continue to trickle downward. So, those still in are probably long-timers...10 years or more, some for most of their natural lives. They're still losing members faster than they can replace them.

I've never gotten to ask anyone this one, and I didn't know which organization pushed this idea until now. So, I'm curious what their answer was/is. What unit of measurement did they use to calculate the pyramids-their own, or the one in effect in Egypt at the time the pyramids were built? If the old one, how do they know they have the correct scale and units? If their own, why the HECK would the Egyptians use a scale nonexistent at the time they built them? Did they ever answer that one?

Oakspear posted: Hmm. I never heard of a church where displays of anger are considered acceptable behaviour. You haven't heard the tenth part of that little subject. BTW, hello. :)--> Uncle Hairy posted: That was funny. :D--> Funny from here, but typical from there. People leaving were given a smear campaign to make a lawyer wince. You want to see some scary stuff, check out the links on the main page. Someone blamed a person's death by plane crash on their family's exit from the organization.

I think someone said once that this was why lcm started coming up with meaningless statements like "go until you hear glass break". He was trying to "spontaneously" come up with things worth quoting so they could be overheard and written down. No easy task when you have little of substance to say in the first place.

It was 1989. The communications and scuttlebut from hq were looking problematic. I remained optimistic that things would improve-I believed, and said, that the other higher-ups would confer, and lcm would get his act together. (Paraphrasing.) The next communique was "all the leadership in your state has been fired for being evil". Well, having gotten to know some of these people, I knew that wasn't true, and convinced me it was time to prepare an exit. I wasn't sure who I'd end up with, but the mass firings made that part easier, since all NY state's leaders left as an organized unit, and most of the state's wayfers went with them. Seeing the only viable choice as one or the other, I went with the state (vf) and who they went with at the time (cg). Looking back, I still think, at the time, it was the right decision.

It means they will be accountable to God for abusing His people, at a time He has appointed, in a fashion He has determined. Being born again is NOT a free pass to abuse God's people, murder, etc. We can discuss the specifics in the DOCTRINAL forum, since that is a DOCTRINAL matter, and not an issue germane to this topic, which is specifically about false prophets, and, as you added, whether or not specific leaders qualify as such. Sounds like, yes, we seem to agree they qualify, and we all agree on this.

*Saruman-like voice* Welcome, Hope, we've been waiting for you to come around. We've reserved a seat for you. Here's your coffee, pocket protector and laptop. Feel free to join in any of the chess matches or Dungeons and Dragons games currently underway....