Second James

Yeh gotta agree with Allan...VP always said he was an APostle..to introduce new light , if I remember right! Never saw or heard him EVER utter any prophecy which was to either come true or not at the BRC or Auditorium..but there again I wasn't WC & at HQ only now & then. A false prophet would say ie...that America would be attacked in l976 and over run by the Russians..BUT for the sake of all those believing believers of da Way..it could & was prevented. Anyone recollect that?

Belle...your figurative gun didn't force you to remain did it?..in other words...you were told what you listed & by gosh you made a DECISION not to believe that crap & off you flew...NOT DECEIVED..not fooled or tricked & you prooved that what they said was a deception by your own decision not to believe such bunk.If you were fooled into believing that crap..you would still be an innie still lurking. I'm sure you own your decision to leave right? Rascal (Is it Cathy?)Never said those were YOUR specific reasons for joining the WC..I too at one point nearly joined & passed on it for the choice of marrying a non WC!!..But my reasons were like yours & I too have a loving giving heart (sorry I offend you at times...sure don't mean to my dear)...I get your point about doing what you're instructed to do..sorta like joining the Army & following orders...& in that case..I can see where you di what you were told....I can identify to a slight extent having been a Twig leader under WC here in Indiana & being told what to do & how to do it...& yet many times I refused to do what I was told (afterall, you CANT JOIN THE WAY) LOLOLso I was free to "buck the leadership & did it frequently, as I had to chose what I believed in my heart of hearts many times instead of what some Nazi wacko was demanding that I teach or do. Ah,,its a free country & can damned well decide for myself what I will & will not do. Thats what frustrates me so often about this forum...as many posters were WC and their experiences are from the WC "commanded" perspective..those of us not under that TWI thumb so to speak didn't HAVE to go that route under the scrutiny of the nut above us. Just wish we could designate whether or not a certain poster was in the WC or not, as I think it would clarify alot of reasons for a particular perspective & different reply. Thank you Rascal though for your honesty..I don't come here to offend, but I do have my thoughts as you DO have yours..AH God Bless America..where we can say what we think EH???? Hugs..

These are definitely SPIRITUAL HOOPS my friends..after all wasn't VP the hook shot inventor...thus a constant supply of hoops is a must!! ;^)

Bramble...sorry it took me a few to reply to your question..as I check this about twice a week at times & this was a busy week for me. When a person gets deceived (tricked, fooled..whatever you want to call it)...in any kind of trickery..there's one person KNOWING what will ultimately screw up the person they want to fool or deceive..TWI INC knew what they were doing in signing up people for the WC (for example)...what was in it for TWI...free labor? females to prey on? Ego trips to be satisfied? We could go on & on...what was in it for the WC signee??? Paid positions in the future? Ladder climbing possibilities....spiritual growth? We could go on and on...& in all fairness..many WC who did make it thru their years are proud of what they got from the WC training...they saw the downsides at times I'm sure BUT wanted the benefits promised. Were they deceived? YES & NO Not being told of certain agendas by TWI left them to discover the atrocities..& in that vein..YES they were deceived...BUT NO in the area of benefits they definitely did receive. Were they victims? perhaps IF they got "ruined" attempting to jump thru the hoops required of them & couldn't do it... We should own what we sign up for in life. My adventure in the TWImobile was one of ups & downs & I OWN UP TO what I fell for & attempt to forgive & move on..many many people have a super hard time forgiving & moving on in their lives because of the trickery of TWI..I feel for them honest. But there was NO GUN TO OUR HEADS...not that I recall...was there one held to yours or anyone's out there in Cyberspace?? JJ

Oh Rascal...............false doctrines & all...we still have a choice in what we "fall for"...if a person is deceived...then who is to "OWN IT"? I know a few people who fell for some of VP's crap & most of these people's insecurities I could EASILY trace back to their childhoods & by the time VP & Co. got their meat hooks into them..they were severely affected ...BUT BUT BUT...they tried some of the same stuff on others who "knew better" & didn't fall for the idolatry the BIBLE so warns us about. I have sympathy for those above whom you mention..in every category & yet I'll bet if you interviewed a few of these folk who got hurt..they would own up to the fact that "they knew better" & yet fell for it..for poor reasons. Again..I'm not condoning VP & Co..as you might think..but much of the problem lies within the charater & integrity of ie..parents...in the abusive category...people on the brink of desperation do stupid things & its easy to then blame another for their influence. We all get what your'e saying..good points (honestly!)..But there wasn't a gun to any of our heads was there?

My first Rock was also Sidney County Fairgrounds with the Rain etc...quite a memory for sure....My most favorite memory though was right around l980 or 8l..happily married with two little ones...the memory of my cute wife & two kids settling into the Big Top & me sitting there with them & thinking "what more could any man ever want in life?" Happily married....a insiders view on "all truth"....a couple of kids..& a twig to run...completely content & of course all the friends meeting there year after year...pretty neat. Ft Wayne is just under 2 hours to New KnoxVille...so an easy mini-vacation for us & knowing that we could always slip West to town to our own comfortable beds if we wanted to...so a good set up. You're all right IMHO..the best part is/was always the common folk who wore the same wrist bands that we did..in fact we typically avpoided all WC we could as we wanted to enjoy the 4 or 5 days...hey..remember when they began tinkering with the Length of ROA??right around when the auditorium was built I think...

My last post got interrupted...as I was saying...the difference between teaching a "known..definitive" subject" like English & sometimes an unclear subject like the Bible leads people like LCM & VP & a slew of others open to give out their take on a variety of subjects..each of which can be interpreted & concluded over in several directions. In the past "when we were young, we chose willingly to believe a farm preacher from Ohio & his cohorts...& wow..20-30 years later we've all accumulated a bit more wisdom..espeically practically speaking. There's no shame in reevaluating "doctrines" that didn't work (Law of Believing " etc..)...I'm just real thankful that we live in a free society & country in which we call the VP's on the carpet. Do you see the moonies or the other cults doing what we're choosing to do..its most difficult..considering that we at one time l00% believed most of this & now we're evolving...Thank God I say!!

In reading some of the last posts...especially about the comparisons between WD's "English teacher" anology & VP...what came up in me is the fact that in teaching English or any language...there are exact definitive principles that adhere to "English" per se..laws if you will that are laid down in stone..that if one transgresses...that we can go to an "english book" & know if we're right or wrong. In teaching the Bible though..it seems like there are at many times different POSSIBLE options..just like the folks here that believe in the Trinity & those who don't...we really DON'T KNOW do we?? each is a possibility..to some degree & we'll all know when God or Jesus lays it out for us i

On August 6th...Rascal stated the following: & I quote "these criminals that good ole James wants us to LOOOVE...f-cked up little kids"...basically I've been advocting all along that we love one another (which MUST make us all criminals) if thats the adgenda Rascal THINKS I'm advocating..it is Rascal's assumption..BUT not mine..I personally see no upside in speaking evil of people who have done others wrong...& yepper there was much evil done by these leaders...some of it criminal. Then Rascal writes on August 8.."I think your statement is about the nastiest slam against the posters at GSC that I have ever read." Rascal...YOU YOU YOU are the one that assumes I condone loving these higher ups..I don't condone it..(Read what I've posted)..I advocate loving each other and getting rid of resentments & bitterness via forgiveness. The dead horse beating will continue & yepper...they most defintely provide a warning for those who are still in or are contemplating joining..& I say hooooooray for you all in saving someone from these awful TWI leaders who are abusive. I hope this clears up my position as I'm long gone from twi & ITS horrors ...I learned some things that are yet of value to me..but never condoned the BS that some of the WC tried to level on me & my family.. God Bless You Rascal for your comittment to see others delivered from this EVIL.. ;^) jj

Yes perhaps I am wasting valuable time by posting, as I'm certainly NOT posting to shove this to the top. Funny thing is..these "criminals" that rascal seems to think that I'm supporting are none other than you & I..I am encouraging each of us to love the other...I'm NOT advocating that you support the current TWI outfit & its manipulators...what I'm saying is...in spite of what TWI re-engineered the Bible to sound like & for us to believe...that its no reason to just dump the Bible...SITing..prayer...fellowshipping etc...just because the leaders are/were corrupt...what I'm saying is..I saw very few of the effects while "out on the field" (my home town fellowships etc) & i think this is cthe case for many who were not Way Corpse....there were good ggood loving people in our areas who are still good & loving with good intentions who we still need to love & reach out to..WHAT REALLY CHANGED IN US BACK IN THE 80'S?????? FEARS CHANGED US... fear that we were duped & fear that those who taught us were corrupt & yet I suggest that truth cannot be destroyed in spite of the sin nature of anyone who teaches or leads. The dead horse many are beating isn't worth beating..there's NO upside to the negative accusations that are more than rampant than the truth found here about God REALLY loving us & being there for us in spite of the evil of "men"...

Rascal..if you think I support TWI...& its attrocities..you're outa your mind...I'm merely stating that we're ALL guilty of having fully supported the TWI & its doctrinal positions way back when & now sn't it peculiar the l80 degree swing so many of us have taken in being vehemently opposed to the entire baby & its bathwater...that's all I'm pointing out...two states of being SURE in our own personal lives.. Ya know them more I read the responses of so many of you..I realize the two totally different perspectives many of us come from...one "WC" perspective in which you signed into "the TWI army" and in doing so saw many of the cuplits first hand...the other being "on the field" so to speak..some of us Twiggie leaders..some just followers..& all of us having either wonderful Godly people who sincerely tried to help us..others having belligerant WC's who ruled with an iron fist...both positions are vastly different..I come from the latter position & had both good & bad WC's exerting their force over us. We beat this dead horse (be it WC good or evil..or VP LCM & da Horney "hand" & who ever you didn't like or bow down to..& I say "what's the use"???? Where's it getting any of us..? Aren't we to love one another...aren't there enough of us "left" from this ministry to simply give ourselves to & instead we waste our time beating this DEAD DEAD DEAD beaten horse 39 stripes save one over & over so to WARN OTHERES? yeh right.. BUNK I say...we who are beating them are still resntful & hurt & full of hatred towards what they perpetuated...& yet we can forgive & move on...honest.. Satori..sorry I irk you so...your problem my friend, as I love you with the love of God & mean no harm to you..I pray God's judgement on you is merciful! Much much pain in this cafe..if you ask me.

Satori...this book also contains passages about judgement & rewards..seems to me that IF the Bible is true...you might just get to give an accounting of the "sticker" that you must obviously believe to be true..hope I get to be in the audience when you explain it to the Lord God Almighty To the rest of you...I sure appreciate your replies & have similar feeling as do many of you...to me, it would be different if I hadn't seen people healed & set free...but the words in this most HOLY of books happen to set people free..TRUTH DOES SET PEOPLE FREE..just like it says. Guess I'm perplexed how at one point in a persons life (one extreem) they are l00% sold on the Bible & its power based on the belief in words..& at another point in a person's life (the other extreem) they're tearing down people who POSSIBLY had good intentions to deliver the truth to really help people & in the process corrupted themselves as people in power tend to d.I just don't see the profit of crucifying these people (yeh warnings are a good thing, but beating a dead dead dead horse over & over??? (& over)????????? How dead do "we" want it to be & in the mean time there really are people who NEED words of life to set them free. I don't condone what VP & LCM & Horneyhands did...but can't truth stand on its own in spite of how the messenger fails?

I've thought about this particular "can of worms" for months now..espceially when reading different threads that show alot of animosity towards "the ministry" that we had all formerly defended to the hilt at one time in our lives (speaking for alot of us I'd say....)I guess what I'm saying is....DOESN'T IT AMAZE ALOT OF YOU HOW MANY OF US ARE SO EAGER TO PRONOUNCE SENTENCE ON THE MINISTRY THAT WE SO ADAMANTLY DEFENDED YEARS AGO? Yes.....I realize that alot of evil was done by the higher ups...& oh by no means should we condone such behavior...what I'm asking is this...."DO YOU PERSONALLY THINK THAT THE BIBLE IS NOW FULL OF HOLES....SINCE THE HIGHER UPS THAT TAUGHT US THE WORD YEARS BACK (WHICH WE DEFENDED TO THE HILT)TURNED OUT TO BE SOOOOOOOOOOOO CORUPT? I'M TRYING TO BELIEVE THAT WHAT ALOT OF YOU ARE AGAINST IS THE CORRUPTNESS OF THE PRESENT ORGANIZATION & YET MANY OF YOU STAYED IN YEAR AFTER YEAR HOPING TO SEE IT ALL CHANGE. For me personally...I still believe that the Bible has alot of merit. I was not one to immediately "buy into" some of the wacko doctrines that they tried to shove down our throats...& those that did buy into alot of this junk did end up with alot of bad results.. So thats my q...will this Bible that set so many of us "free" still work in your life in spite of the corruptness of our former leaders?

Believe it or not I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM...are ya'll sitting down?? LOL...Simply this...have a couple of squad cars armed with a "harpoon" shooting gun....complete with cable & winch...harpoon the getway car in the trucnk & reel them in!! Most likely the car spotting the offender won't be the one armed with the harpoon..but that car could be summoned perhaps & be the one to apprehend the suspect..without totoally ruining the car....Just an idea!! JJ

George...since you ADMIT to breaking the sacred glasses, which I'm sure one can't a value upon...let us know how much TWI sues you for as I'm sure you'll be tried as an adult..By making restitution for this heinous crime..perhaps your guilt will subside.

After having read thios thread I have but one question....but I'll preface the question first with this statement. IF THE WAYGB MONITORS THIS WEBSITE & WOULD MOST LIKELY FORWARD THESE TYPES OF CHALLENGES TO BOTH BOB & DOTTIE..my question then is this...HOW DO YOU DEPEND ON THEM TO RELAY THESE CHALLENGES..RATHER WHY NOT JUST WRITE THIS CHALLENGE TO BOB & dOTTIE DIRECTLY? (tHAT'S MY Q) as it seems to me that issuing challenges such as this are useless (as no one has replied & we sure don't know why do we?) BUT by writing to them, at least they could deal with the issues & you would KNOW at least that they heard what you had to say. I'm sure not defending either...but to expect results from such an e-mail is expecting quite alot from such people as these, whom you've made fun of & put down consistently...just a thought..

DM...naw...not by OUR sweet& never outspoken gscer's..can't imagine what you'd be thinkin'..LOL

No Scarlet...this is not anything online, although I know that Bridge does get played online...but these are groups of people who (along with myself)..all play the same hands in one night & whichever partners play their hands the best for the evening are crowned the winners...very very fun if you love cards at all..Its not the easiest of games to learn but very very fun once you do!! JJ

Hi ya'll...any duplicate Bridge players out there in GSC land??? I'm a prty bridge player for a few years and just discovered duplicate...what a riot although I am tired of others getting dealt slams..thus I am tired of being slammed!!

gosh vickles...don't ignore the good ole TWI window washing gig...plenty of fresh air..in fact cooooool fresh air in Dec-March!! or later in Minnesota....LLOLOL JJ

Mike...here's a question for you...since Jesus didn't WANT to go thru the crucifixion (no more than you or I would WANT to)///does that mean that he feared? (or had fear) Since he is/was a man..and a sinless man at that..did he fear?? Afterall..he did say" not my will but thy will be done" Right? IF he had fear..would that then be "sin"? I know I have fears & most of what I fear & feared in my life has never ever "come into fruition"...just curious what you "think" on this q.....JJ

Second James to me is just a simple way of using my initials...JJ...I'm Jim Jackemeyer from Ft wayne Indiana..have nuthin' to hide from any WAYGB..I'm single..live on a small farm and have three grown kids. I realize that james was the brother of Jesus & since I do follow Christ ..I too am his brother...a "second james"...kniw nuthin' about whipping an icon under it! I enjoy many many of your posts & your honesty btw..very stimulating at times.JJ

Hi...its been over 20 + years since Harry Chapin passed (probably in a Taxi..LOL)..just curious..does anyone out there enjoy his music as much as I do & did..I know my kids really loved the "storytelling" which many times hit their hearts as well as mine..any takers?JJ

When you seriously think about it folks...would any of you really want the job of prez of TWI? It's like being the warden of a prison which has 4000-5000 inmates..to me its almost an embarrassing "accomplishment" of sorts & it sounds like she's "copped" the prize...yuk what a prize???JJ

Hi! Wish I could help as I went about 35 minutes south of Cancun last October (during off season)..perfect to Palaya deCarmen..as a bud of mine rents us his condo for nine days..much much much better than Americanized Cancun & still small & well attended. Alot of old Mexico & of course more & more of the US of A..let me know what you find out, as our plane tickets outa Indy are typically $300 ish. my new e addy is floridian75days@yahoo.com if you want to compare notes...& yes Tulum & Xel-Ha are super..JJ