waterbuffalo

I knew someone would say that and I agree. Again, that is just an example of someone leading in the church who can't be making very godly decisions if he is engaging in that kind of activity. Suppose its the pastor who slanders the flock on a regular basis but who can preach REALLY well. Don't you think Christian character affects everything we do? I mean, there are certain things that one does to disqualify them from being a true servant and if so, their church, as a result is going to dwindle, don't you think?

(((((BLUZEMAN))))) THANKS!!!!! Steve!, thank you too for trying.

Couldn't find this author on Amazon. Do you know the title of the book you're referring to? Great thread, Cindy! I'm taking notes!

Does anyone know? Have there been scientific studies? Is it individual? What has worked for you? I need help because I can't wear a lot of my clothes anymore. I suppose it would help if I quit stuffing myself with dessert everyday, huh? Anyway, I've gotta lose to fit into one of my suits to interview in. LOL! HELP!!!!!

(((BRAMBLE))) I know, it's challenging sometimes. I'm gaining weight and can't decide if I should just keep on enjoying dessert and buy new clothes or diet and look cute, ya know? It's tough sometimes because our society is so looks oriented. You probably look beautiful with the clothes you mentioned above. That's what everyone wears to work, now, not just for entertainment, in Indy. Of course our city doesn't pretend to be up with the fashion devas, but just fyi. Hope this helps! The More mag sounds interesting, Karmi, I'll have to check that out. I'm kinda tired of the ones geared to the hollywood fake stuff. That sounds refreshing. One of my favorite books is entitled Something More and it's for 50 something women, also. Wonder if there's a connection.

Steve! I have windows 98 and the View menu does not have a details in the dropdown.

Ditto, CW. :D--> Good one, Ham!

What a great day for a birthday. My wish is that it exceeds all of your expectations and Cindy!'s too!

Need help. Thanks!

reikilady, that's quite an accomplishment and i commend you! i think AA is one of the greatest organizations ever because of how it has helped me to understand the alcoholics in my family and to stop some of my insane behaviors to try to "help them." As Jardinero said, it is very much a family disease.

I mean, it could be the pastor is gossiping about the flock and not adultery. My point is that when the leaders of the church are engaging in activity that is ungodly and they don't think it's wrong, the congregation will be affected and will feel confused and will wonder why they're not being inspired instead of enjoying the services.

I think it should be both because if a person is messing with someone else's wife the night before and lying to his own, yes he can lead praise and worship on Sunday morning and make a joyful noice, but for the spiritually perceptive who are there, something just won't be right. I mean, that inner voice will be telling you something but you might not be able to put your finger on it. If this is something that goes on for a long period of time, the spiritual atmosphere of the church just wouldn't be right and I'd eventually have ta get outta there. The way I gauge it is if it doesn't feel right, LEAVE. That's why we were given spiritual senses to tell us when something is right (godly) and when something isn't right (ungodly). We don't even have to know WHY or the specifics just THAT it's not a nurturing, and positive environment for us to be in.

This is a question that I have wondered about and possibly gotten confused over somewhere along the way. Does anyone think it's "either or" and why is it so hard for some very gifted people to become or remain Christ-like? Is it ego or what? I'm posting part of an article (THE POWER OF A TRANSCENDENT LIFE) by a Christian writer that I like and he gives his take on it below. Does anyone agree/disagree with his theology? I think he makes some good points that this is the way it is, but he doesn't really tell us how to avoid this pitfall. Does anyone have any ideas on this subject? The Gifts and Callings It is to our shame in the west that many of our seminaries do not focus on becoming Christlike, but rather devote themselves primarily to theology and hermeneutics. Obviously, we need correct biblical knowledge, but even more do we need conformity to Christ. Even in our churches we labor to see people released in "their gifts," and may we never stop! But let us not neglect the more foundational work of seeing Christlikeness structured into the congregational attitude. Paul taught that the gifts and calling of God were "without repentance" (Rom 11:29 KJV). The apostle was writing about Israel and the irrevocable place she has in God's future, yet the principle of which he speaks is true for us as well: God's calling on our lives, and His gifts, remain living realities independent of our state of heart. The gifts and calling of God exist "without repentance." A pastor can still preach and even inspire the congregation, though he is living in serious sin. His "calling" is not dependent upon the current state of his righteousness. A worship leader that commits adultery Saturday night still may stir a congregation Sunday morning because his gift still works "without repentance" of his sin. The evangelist that weeps as he saves souls, even after he spent the night drunk, thinks that God has excused his lawlessness. Yet, even while the Holy Spirit is working through the minister's gifts, the man himself is in grave danger. For after he has preached to others, he himself might be disqualified (see 1 Cor 9:27). We have all seen gifts and callings remain functional even though individuals led double lives, with hearts that were trapped in sin. The fact that the gifts and calling of God operate somewhat independent of our character tell us that God will use imperfect people. But we still must beware. A day may come when we look to our gifts or ministry and plead, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" But Christ will not have it. Instead, He will utter those most terrible words, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matt 7:21-23). You see, our gifts are necessary and understanding our calling is vital. Yet, attaining the nature of Christ is our destiny. Beloved, as we approach the end of the age, a new priority is coming to God's people: the summing up of "all things in Christ" (see Eph 1:9-10). Both our gifts and our calling must serve our destiny, which is to reveal the nature of Christ. The focus that brings meaning and fulfillment is that which works to conform us inwardly to Christ. Our lives are to become "a fragrance of Christ to God" (2 Cor 2:15). Yes, the path to Christlikeness is the way to transcendent life of God. by Francis Frangipane Frangipane Ministries, Inc. http://www.frangipane.org comments@frangipane.org

Well done, Hammeroni. It feels good to draw the line and be assertive, doesn't it? I'm sure they weren't being nice to you or you wouldn't have felt the need to put them in their place like that. GOOD FOR YOU for taking care of you!!!!

Also, has anyone heard of or been to Michoacan? They make guitars down there and sell them for a lot less we've heard. Just wondered if it was a nice vacation spot??

Ex10, Where do you recommend staying at the place you recommended? We're interested! wb

ok, i'll buy that, now what's your source??? ...only kidding :D-->

justwannabeme, gosh, thanks for pointing that out. BINGO! Yes, that's exacty what they were doing. That's manipulation with a capital M! And, if you liked being manipulated in twi, you can get the same thing in a spinoff group. We know a woman who goes to the local mog, jr. everytime her husband doesn't do things the way she wants him to and tells on him. Then mog, jr. calls him up and asks him to come over and then, miraculiously, after their little visit, the couple are "likeminded." I like to call it by its real name, MANIPULATED. Yes, the "ldrs" (I use quotes because I doubt if they are leaders in God's eyes, my opinion)gossiped about the flock all of the time when I was in (I know because I used to do it) and I'm sure nothing has changed. I sure hope the individuals still caught up in that get out of that snare because they are hurting themselves worse than anyone because we have to give an account of the words we speak to the Lord someday.

oh, yeah, the marriage thing, I've changed my views about being the same on everything, as Bramble said. Diversity is a lot more interesting and it means you have to talk and express yourself if your views are different. I applaud all of those who aren't the same, but are big enough and mature enough to work at loving someone enough to give them the space to be who they are and love them possibly even more for having an opinion and sticking to it.

HC, that sounds more like when I was in, and it was the same time period since I wasn't around for the 2nd rung reign of terror. What I still object to is how our thinking got warped to allow people's opinions to bare so much weight in our personal lives. JL, don't know if I deserve all that, but I appreciate your saying it anyway (hum, someone thinks I'm a scholar, I like that). You just hit on one of my pet peeves so thanks for realizing it wasn't about you and not taking it personally. I don't advise anyone anymore either and I'm a LOT happier for it since I'm not a therapist either. AND my days of taking advice from ex-twi are over, too, and I'm a lot happier for it since they're not a therapist either. hehe.

Yes, we all used to counsel people when we were twi. Please don't take this personally, Johnny, because I respect everyone's right to counsel their child as to what they think is right in selecting a marriage partner. But, when ex-twi's with no other training than twi classes begin to "counsel" peers or other people that they know, that always sends up a huge red flag for me now (I'm not saying you're not a trained therapist or counselor because if you are, then obviously that comment does not apply to you, and either way, no offense was intended).

Belle, I wonder why we allowed ourselves to be placed in the position of children with parents in the way tree, especially when, really, spiritually, we were all peers. We all took the same class, which was all the credentials any of us had, which was no credentials, really, and then the A dogs became the ldrs (parents) and the B dogs became the followers (children), or something like that. The question I ask myself is what did I get out of it and why did I allow these people this power over my life for that many years? When they made us pay $85 for a Bible class (unheard of unless the class was for college credits), and then told us that we couldn't take notes in the class that we just paid for, that should have been a huge red flag for me, but I just ignored them and took notes anyway, but all the while feeling a little bit guilty and looking over my shoulder to make sure they weren't going to throw me out (sorry for the run on sentences). He he.

good thread. thanks catcup for telling it like it is in your life. i'm impressed by what all of you have said. just to chime in and add my two cents worth, my ex really, really, really, really didn't believe that I was entitled to an opinion. I mean, this was part of a belief system for him, hence, the ex status. I feel very sad for women and men who live under that controling, religious spirit. It's also so uncomfortable to even be around a lot of ex way people who still cannot have peer relationships--they have to always be the ldr or the follower--no in-between (but that's another subject so I won't derail). hubs and i treat each other with respect but we both have had controlling tendencies in the past. we've pretty much broken each other of that, but it still comes up at times and we work through it. we love each other very much and are very happy to be in each other's lives so it works out for us.

...typical cult dogma...they're all the same, apparently...

If you work thru an agency, you could request receptionist, jr jobs, which is no more than 5 lines. Those are pretty easy assignments. That's what I'm doing now while I'm interviewing.