templelady

What ever VPW did, whatever he said it was always with the thought "will this benefit me?". Most of us have that thought quite frequently but on the other hand most of us do not perceive of ourselves as a demi-god to whom reverence and adulation is OWED.

In order for a wife to submit to her husband "as to the Lord" she would have to know what was required and be actively practicing submission to the Lord on HER OWN behalf. This exhorts her to listen to her husbands counsel with the same degree of attentiveness and respect that she would listen to the Lord's counsel. NOWHERE does it decree that she must no longer go to the Lord on her own behalf and instead depend on her husband to do it for her. Nowhere does it demand that she follow her husbands decisions if they are not in keeping with the will of the Lord just because he says too. I challenge anyone to find ANY passage in the Bible that tells a married woman that she is not to go to the Lord in Prayer and supplication on her own behalf at her own behest. The husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. One of the cornerstones of want God and his Son Jesus Christ preach to man is FREEDOM OF CHOICE. Freedom to believe or not believe, freedom to follow or not follow, freedom to obey or not obey. Therefore if the husband is truly following this passage he cannot DEMAND that his wife follow any of his dictates for to do so would violate her freedom of choice and it would be an exercise in "unrighteous dominion". So the wife is to be subject to her husband as the church is subject to Christ, following his lead when prayer and supplication have revealed his way is in keeping with the will of Heavenly Father all the while NEVER surrendering her right of freedom of choice. Following her husband because she has no choice but to do so, is not a Christian principle in fact the exact opposite, It was Satan who wanted all mankind FORCED to obey Heavenly Father. TWI, read these passages and interpretated them to support their preconceived ideas that women were lying, spritual inferiors who had to be "dealt with" and "kept in line".

Okay Genesis 3:16--Let's see what am I missing here???? I know! CONTEXT!!! I don't mean the context of the surrounding verses but the context of Adam and Eve's lives at that point in time. Before this they had lived in a garden that provided everything they need to survive and be happy. They could come and go as they pleased safe from all harm , disease and other calamity. There was no need for one of them to be a leader and one to be a follower since God was the leader and they both were His followers. In fact Genesis is very clear about what position Eve occupied she was Adams "helpmeet", not his servant, not his follower, his equal companion. But now in Genesis 3:16 everything has changed. Gone is the garden, gone is the safety, God no longer will speak to them directly because they have become sinful and must be cutoff from His presence. They must go into a now hostile world full of dangers and trials with the possibility of death ever before them. In this situation the former policy of each "doing their own thing" is not only not feasible but could be downright deadly. So God in an act of compassion, gives them the charge "He [Adam] shall rule over thee [Eve]". He makes the physically stronger of the two {Adam} the one who leads--a practical way of working now that they are on their own. Adam will be able to better fend off wild animals, carry heavy burdens of food and materials etc and so protect his physically weaker wife and their future children. In short, God has given them a blueprint to aid them in succeeding in their new life. Goc NEVER declares that Eve is anything else than Adam's "Helpmeet". He never changes her status as Adam's equal partner in God's gerand scheme of things all God does is outline the division of labor. God also never declares that Eve is inferior or of less status when it comes to praying and sacrificing to God. CUSTOMS of MEN over the centuries made the man the "Spritual head of the house", caused women to go to their husbands for guidance. God never once declared Eve to have lesser rights and responsibilities when it came to the relationship between them.

Hope it was the happiest of days

that could be expanded to: if the mainline churches did their jobs better, there would never have been a need out there for abortion, same sex marriages, divorce etc. etc. etc. Just my opinion

ARRRGHHHHH ***primal scream to relieve angst******** Being subject to your husband does not mean that you are to put your brain and emotions in neutral for the rest of your life!! A quick look at the Bible shows intelligent woman who made dynamic decisions. Being subject to your husband means that he is the head of the house IN SO FAR AS he is subject to Heavenly Fathers will. Once the husband steps away from God and what His will is and/or interprets the Bible to say other than what it says etc., God expects the wife to step up to the plate so as to make sure her life and the lives of her children are in keeping with "the word". Husbands who commit adultry, are abusive to spouse and children, don't work, are addicts etc. have exercised their freedom of choice and elected to stop walking in Christ's footsteps. Nowhere in the Bible are women exhorted to follow a husband who walks in the paths of sin. There are Old Testament passages that exhort a wife to stay with a non-believer so that through her example he may be converted. But there are NO passages that tell a woman what her response is to be toward a believing spouse who chooses to follow a life of sin. Since these passages do not exist we are left with what does exist. The New Testament is a guidebook for our lives which repeatedly stresses that we are responsible for eschewing evil and following Christ, no exceptions no excuses. There is validity to the idea that a wife and husband stay married through the hard times--but staying married DOES NOT mean always living at the same address.( Another topic not addressed directly in the Scriptures.) If anything, the New Testament, and the Bible as a whole, is clear that a woman is to follow after Christ and bring her children up to do likewise--subjecting herself and children to the dictates of a husband who preaches sin as a lifetyle violates this most fundamental of commandments IMO.

All this dithering about "'real' Christianity isn't a religion" was for one purpose and one purpose only. THe logic for that purpose goes like this: "Real" Christianity isn't a religion Therefore Christian churches that are a religion, aren't "real" Christianity TWI is not a religion and so therefore, is "real" Christianity Just more of VPWs semantic twists and dodges to muddy the waters so that when he held out what he claimed to be "the truth" it would be more readily accepted as such.

Happy Birthday dear {Back in the day we used to sing a birthday song with a "splash" in it, remember??? One of the few "cute" things in TWI.} YOu have a great, wonderful, happy, joyous, over the top day--You deserve it!

As I understand it from watching a few shows meant to educate people as to their rights and my own experiences: A police officer can stop anyone and ask any question he likes. Anyone has the right to refuse to talk to the police A police officer can ask a minor questions without their parents present as long as they have not put the child under arrest, or otherwise detained them The Supreme Court has consistantly ruled over the years that police officers are allowed to lie and otherwise mislead witnesses and suspects and persons of interest in order to obtain material information and/or confessions. Children need to understand exactly what they should do when confronted by police. If they know nothing about the situation they need to say so. If they have information about the situation, were involved in the situation, or the police do not believe that they know nothing: they first and foremost need to RESPECTFULLY say "I won't talk to you without my mom or dad present" No yelling, swearing, name calling, threatening moves, they just are to keep repeating the above while always maintaining a respectful tone of voice and demeanor. This makes it difficult if not impossible for the police to arrest them on an unrelated charge such as assaulting a police officer, disturbing the peace etc. No matter what the police threaten they need to keep asking for their parents and volunteer and/or admit nothing. Impress upon your children that no matter how long it takes or what pressure (ie threats) are made you, their parents, and --if necessary-- an attorney will come get them. They need to be firm in requesting that you be called and wait until you get there. No matter what the police threaten they can do no real damage except scare the daylights out of them if they let themselves be scared. Again no smart *ss attitude etc. Just a Polite repetition of "I will talk only when my parents are here. TO EACH AND EVERY QUESTION. No matter how innocuous the question appears. Once you are there ascertain what it is that the police are claiming to be the situation, ask your child "do you know any thing about this" if the answer is "No" demand that your child be turned over to you immediately. If the answer is "Yes" or if the police decide to file charges even though your child has said "NO". DO NOT ask your child any questions inside the station where cameras and audio equipment may be recording. Instead instruct your child not to speak until you return with an attorney.

When I was lying in the emergency room going in and out of conciousness becasue of blood loss, my surgeon was told by my friends that I am the type of person who likes it "straight". So when I, in a concious moment, asked my chances he told me flat out "you have an 86% chance of dying on the table." When, a few muinutes later, my boss called I took the phone and relayed what I had been told. I then handed the phone to my friend L-----, and suddenly was hit by this wave of terror. I looked at the anesthesiologist and said " I'm going to die aren't I?" and he responded "not if I can help it" It was a terryfying few moments-- not just because of my potential imminent death but because I felt in my mind that I was in no way deserving of a life with Heavenly Father ( this is not meant as a commetary on the validity of my beliefs just an explanaiton of why my thoughts were what they were). Then I realized that from my perspective either Jesus Christ told the truth or He didn't-- that was all there was to it and all there was to hang onto. I must have faded out of conciousnous again because I next remember hitting my arm on the elevator door on the way into the surgery then waking up in recovery. I can tell you that looking at your death head on- at least for me-was a bone chilling experience. There are people out their with a stronger faith than mine that wouldn't have my reaction. But facing that journey is a best unsettling. I don't think I am any better prepared to face that journey than I was before--Just more assured that the destination will be worth the journey. As I posted earlier there is a difference be tween dying and death. Wish I could somehow skip the dying to get to death.

In a fit of curiousity I typed my first and last names into Google and found out that I have at least three "Alter Egos" According to Google "I" am a Councilwoman for the City of Swindon England Featured in an ad for heat pumps by Dakota Electric Association and last but not least run a free Open Crochet class every Tuesday night at a place called Gruber's Quilt Shop and this whole time I thought I was a deskperson in Anchorage AK!!!! So what about the rest of you????

johnj, I have never met you personally but have read your posts about TWI over the years. Your efforts and work in bringing the truth about TWI to light are extremely important because you were never affiliated with TWI and therefore cannot convincingly be accused, by some of the more die-hard Wierwille apologists, of having a personal ax to grind. For this reason what you have written and spoken over the years should be a "mandatory" stop along the way for those seeking to learn about The Way (pun intended). For those among the readers and posters at GSC who insist the stories about the predatory nature of VPW and the horrors that were inflicted on multiple young woman, are at best fabrications I have only this question to ask: Why would a man like John Juedes give so much of his time and place his reputation on the line to "defame" VPW when he has no personal stake in the matter, makes little or no money from his efforts, and in doing so takes on the additional burdens, outside of his congregation, of the former members of TWI??? I can think of no reason he would do so and continue to do so unless what he had to say was verifiable truth. I join with the other posters on this thread in thanking you for your efforts both in what you have done and in taking the time to come answer questions on this thread.

You are a crueeeeeeel crueeeeeeeeeeeel man Garth As for you Raf, Congratulations and best wishes on your pending nuptuals. May this be the start of a lifetime of joy, happiness and companionship.

Look kids , this is really simple Definition of "Freedom in the Word" Any action, idea, or belief system that is held by and/or actively practiced by the MOG or WOG is covered by "freedom in the word". Any action, idea, or belief system that is not held by and/or actively practices by the MOG or WOG is not covered by "freedom in the word"

NATURE 4 LANGUAGE 3.86 SELF 3.71 Those were my strongest THe rest are SOCIAL 3.57 SPATIAL 3.57 MUSICAL 3 BODY MOVEMENT 2.29 LOGIC/MATH 2.29 THE body movement comes as no surprise. THe logic/math is brought down because of my lack of ability in Math above the basics. Math was a torture chamber fopr me in high school and college. I am better now because I can use it if I can see the applicaiton of same. But math for the sake of math--Nope LOL I am also very strong say a 4.5 in the areas of loving food and very weak say a 1.5 is accepting BS at any level

We do have laws in this country that curtail freedom of expression- the crimes they address are called libel and slander. Libel for the written word and slander for the spoken word. If you deliberately cause a persons reputation to be damaged to such an extent that they suffer economic or social harm by declaring things, you know to be false, to be true you can be prosecuted and face monetary fines or jail time or both. I don't think that stating that a group of people, defined by a certain behavior, to be abnormal as a group rises to the level of either of these crimes. Definitely not the nicest thing one could say but then a lot of what is said about of lot of people isn't nice. THe whole point is that this is a foreign country with their own set of laws. I have to believe that a person in the position that this gentleman holds would be aware of those laws when he spoke as he did. Maybe he didn't think that the governement would take much notice of his comments, maybe he was trying to provoke the very reaction he got, I just don't know. I seriously doubt that this country has reached that level of political correctness even though many people would like to see it happen. FOr example Many people would love to see "talk radio" banned. Wny? because talk radio tends for the most part to lean toward the right and is often critical of the lefts positions. So on nighttime talk show last week one of our leftist government leaders announced that "talk radio" should be called "hate radio". Is it because these right leaning stations preach a "doctrine of hate" on a consistant or even semi-consistant basis?--No-- its because they don't agree with the left most of the time. So here we have a group of people consisting of some radio announcers, their staffs and their listeners branded with the word "hate" for daring to hold different political beliefs. Nothing to date, that I am aware of, has been done by "the system" to chastise the speaker. Ditto for Ms Coulter--I find some of her comments to be equally outrageous, but she isn't behind bars either. There is a backlash, gaining momentum, in this country against the PC doctrine that has attempted to herd us into at least an appearence of spoken and written conformity to what has been decreed by the nebulous "them" as being "correct". In my opinion that backlash is long overdue.

God requires that I be "right" when it comes to my walk with Him. He wants me to especially keep working on being "right" with Him when I fail. Do I believe that what I believe is right and right for many--of course, pointless to believe in what I believe if I didn't. BUt there is an extremely fine line between my believing that: 1) the LDS church is right and sharing that belief with others AND 2) I have a mandate from God that requires that I keep speaking my message until I have forced you to agree and convert or flee in panic at which point I in a fit of self justification can declare that you will not recieve exaltation in the celestial kingdom. It is that most fine of lines that people often step over, often inadvertantly when talking about God and His son Jesus Christ. The first permits all to exercise their freedom of choice. It was the issue of freedom of choice that led to Lucifer leading a third of the heavenly host away from Heavenly Father. The second tries to deny that same freedom of choice by threats and intimidation. Threats and intimidation render that which should be good into that which can be evil. Just my opinion.

Well that would help to grease the WAY wouldn't it??? ****irresistable impulse atttack!!!!! ********

I don't know about that, Sushi. My stint in TWI sure felt like war to me! Granted there were no bullets and mortar shells flying overhead as I crawled through 6 inches of mud., but I think that some of us went through things, that while not necessarily life threatening, were severe enough in nature as to produce reactons that resulted in PTSD and nightmares for years to come. My children, would tell you that what happened to them was indeed life threatening. I would have to agree. It was entirely within SD's power both mentally and physically to kill any or all of us.

Sme beliefs in Christianity , as in most other religions, are so core to the entire religion as to be indespensible and therefore irrefutable if one wishes to continue to practice that religion. The question I use to deternmine the importance of various viewpoints in Chrsitianity is: Does belief either way in this tenet effect the efficacy[sic] of the Life of Jesus Christ and his Atonement for all of mankind? If the answer is no, then I feel I can safely relegate the entire issue to the "Interesting To Discuss But Not Pertinent To Salvation" pile. If the answer is yes, then the response is to put it in the "This is Necessary for the Atonement and Salvation To Be Alive in My Life" pile.

I have stayed away from posting to this thread because the damage done to my children is a very real and present concern in my life and theirs. We are just now dealing with some of the issues TWI created and I have no desire for any of my children to find current information about what is going on in their lives, thanks to TWI, popping up on a search engine. Even if I hide their names etc, they are very smart and will know I have betrayed confidences and our private discussions. This I cannot do. I can however, safely express my feelings about certain key elements of one of the problems. minicorpse, hit the nail on the head, IMO, with his post. There was no true laughter in TWI. Oh sure we laughed privately amoung ourselves with close friends. We laughed at the "appropriate" times when leadership told what passed for a "joke". We kidded around etc, in approved and sanctioned ways. But spontaneous gut shaking laughter, that springs from the unexpected event or statement, was not something you found happening very ofen. On the rare occassions it did there were usually swift and unpleasant repercussions. Laughter and fun like eveything in TWI had to be examined and regulated. Laughter that is examined and regulated ceases to be laughter and instead becomes a travesty of expression. Yet laughter can teach far more effectively than many a lecture. Case in point Me: ( in a adult gospel doctrine class about forgiveness) "So let us say that I have a real anger against MD and I just won't let it go. I decide one night to go to the grocery store up on 13th and Gambell with my friend P--- and as we are pulling out of the parking lot we are hit head on by a drunk driver coming from the bar across the street and I am killed. So now I am dead and I will face God and Jesus Christ having never practiced forgiveness toward MD. So think on that for a minute and then think about people you are angry at and "can't " forgive. Is it worth it?? JB: well the other side of the story is that the person who I am justifiably angry with will have to stand before God and Jesus Christ when God has never been asked to stay his vengence from her! And the entire class just exploded in laughter including me. We then went on to have an excellent discussion about forgiveness in general and specific ways to go about forgiving others. Imagine such a scenario in TWI and the repercussions if it happened!!! People who are too afraid to let honest emotion bubble to the surface are going to be too afraid to express their own doubts, concerns, and weak spots, in the very settings that should exist for just that pupose and the healing of same.

Welcome Midge, from the way you posted it appears that you have a lot of first hand knowledge about how LCM's family feel about him. How did you come by this knowledge?? Not saying there is ANYTHING wrong about what you posted it is just that it is very seldom that we at GSC hear from anyone who has current firsthand informaiton about how Donna and her kids and the rest of LCM's family actually feel about the entire situation.

Only God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are perfect in word, deed, action and thought. No one man has EVER gotten the whole message right. The Bible has been edited, cut and otherwise altered over the ages to fit whichever dogma was in charge of same. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints holds that it is the one true church. ****A premiss that I agree with or why else would I have joined.?***** We have a living prophet, that gives us revelation when so directed by God. Unlike the mog of TWI, we are not asked to accept what comes from the mouth of the prophet as "gospel" we are instead commanded, to pray and read our scriptures to ascertain if what we have been told is truly in line with God's Word. Are there "sheep" within the church that will follow whatever the prophet says without thinking? Of course! This type of person exists in every organization, but the LDS church is unique in it's-test-it-for-yourself approach to doctrine. Before I joined the church, I was involved with no less than NINE different denominations including TWI- none of them ever gave the individual this amount of freedom of choice in matters of doctrine. The interesting thing is that holding the belief that we are the one true church DOES NOT make LDS etal. judgemental, or sanctimonious. You are allowed to discuss any doctrinal beliefs you may hold, with the Bishop, his counselors or any other church member. As one of the adult gospel doctrine teachers I have frequently had visitors ask pertinent questions or share ideas from different belief systems. Those ideas were thoughtfully discussed by the class. I myself have interjected beliefs, held by different denominations, that I still consider to be valid. We do not consider ourselves to be "better" than everyone else in fact we are repeatedly told that such thinking violates one of God's most fundamental of ordinances, "Judge not least ye be judged". As a church we are loving, generous, and welcoming no matter your religious persuasion. I never imagined that I would ever find the love, acceptance and joy that I have found within the fold of the LDS Church, it has been rejuvinating, healing, invigorating and inspirational. It has caused a 180' turnaround in many areas of my life that I considered permanently "broken"

Sigh....................... Having beeen involved on a personal level in some of the brohas around here it is obvious that johniam and jeaniam are incapable of letting a subject drop or even better carrying on their critisisms behind closed doors via PM's. I'm not saying that the first few volleys in one of these "spats" can't be aired on the boards but after a while private is the way to go. But this has gone far beyond this, one of the parties, Rascal, has gone so far as to PLEAD not once but more than once for johniam and jeaniam to be content to go their own way and leave her alone. johniam and jeaniam have basically not only refused but gone out of their way to, not only continue their attacks but, increase them. This, IMO, is no longer about a difference of opinion but a matter of predatory bullies repeatedly attacking those they perceive as prey I have been in this position, where a poster followed me attacking whatever and however I posted and I was brought to tears more than once by the continued attacks. I was aided by fellow posters who went tothe moderators and got the offender put on notice and then temporarily banned. I am forwarding this post to the moderators asking that jeaniam and johniam be dealt with , NOT for their opinions or beliefs but for their continuing bullying behavior.

Some of my creditors have indeed knocked anywhere from 20-50% off, but with being in a medical facility continually since Feb 10, 9 different doctors more tests than I can count in no less than 5 different sites it truly is staggering how fast the money racks up. Thanks all for your suggestions. Does anyone know how to go about finding out what the Medicare/Medicaid maximums are in terms of amounts paid for certain tests, procedures etc.??? I would help if I could authoritivly aanounce that I knew just how much of a disparity there was in what was being charged. On a more positive note they did manage to get me an appt. on July 3rd for the cat scan. The results will take longer because of the holiday backlog but at least we are on the path.