templelady

The Bible records that Mary concieved. Conception is the uniting of Sperm and Egg. In this case, God providing the "sperm" and Mary the egg. Jesus was of the lineage of David-lineage that came to him through Mary. There is nothing in scripture that says that Jesus was anything other than the literal son of Mary.

I think that the fine line here is the judgement and after the judgement. Sins will be remembered at the judgement-else what would there be to judge? After the judgement when those admited to the presence of Jesus Christ and God will have the new body- the sins will be erased-hence nonexistent-therefore not able to be remembered.

Sad, that an organization can take what is clearly a translation problem, and turn it into a justification for abortion or any other question that has moral implications. Even sadder when said organization touts itself as a "Biblical research" group; spends hours teaching it's followers how to compare Greek, and other languages root word meanings; compare their use in various places in scripture; and then, at the critical juncture, abandon the above so as to bolster their own self serving position. As to why this hasn't been explored more throughly my opinion is that the two groups most concerned with this interpretation are: those who benefited from abortions that eliminated a pregnancy that would have resulted in inconvenience for the male-- and thus are using the above to justify their decision to "persuade" the woman to have said abortion; Women so "persuaded" who use the above to continue to try and convince themsleves that they terminated the existence of an "it" as opposed to an offspring so as to ease themselves of the pangs of guilt that still plague them. Am I saying that these women should feel guilt? Absolutely not! God understands their individual circumstances and has long ago granted forgivness to these tortured souls--they just have been unable to feel or admit to that forgivness--adding to the horror of the entire situation. Another place that TWI could help in the healing process----- To admit that the PI of this particular scripture was wrong and the many cases where leadership used their ministerial capacity to "persuade" women into believing otherwise was also wrong. To let these woman know that they were unfairly coerced by those claiming to represent God. I am waiting with baited breath TWI's response.......... <_<

So now I am trying to see the difference between TWI's assertion that those outside of the Household could not understand what agape means And the assertions here on this thread that if you are not a "born again" Christian you are incapable of exhibiting completely selfless love. And my conclusion is that they are the same coinage just polished differently. One demands membership in the Household as defined by TWI. One demands membership in a group called "born again" ( although I, or any one else, would be hard pressed to define just exactly who fits into this group since the standards for membership flutuate depending on which fundamentalist sect you listen too) TWI maintains that Agape is possible only through "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" a sufficiently opaque statement that keeps the debate going about what precisely it means which means that until we understand what it means there is really no way to ascertain if it has happened. While group two maintains agape is possible outside of the constraints of TWI but only in a group, the definition of which is dependent on which sect of fundamentalist Christianity one espouses, that is similarly narrowly defined. Both TWI and the "born Again" faction have thus successfully taken the discussion away from how we can recognize agape love in action and thus encourage it to flourish and centered the discussion instead on who is "permitted" to practice same.

Sorry, but being "born again" and brothers joint heirs with Jesus Christ requires belief in Roman 10:9-10. We are all God's children created by Him in His image. THose that would deny this do so, IMO, to justify their behavior toward those they deem as inferior or other wise unfit.

Loving you neighbor as yourself does not only refer to your literal neighbor but to the fact that we are all neighbors to each other in the viewpoint of the Almighty. From that view there is often nothing in it for you --in point of fact there is often nothing in it for you even if you know the person. And I again, submit that it is possible to exhibit Agape love without being "born again". We are all the children of God, and as such we all have the inate ability to love as He loves. Being "born again" refers to accepting Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His atonement for us. It is elitist to claim that those not "born again" cannot exhibit agape especially when we note that when Christ spoke these words He was addressing a mixed group of individuals BEFORE Gesthemene and the crucifixtion. He was telling them that that kind of love was possible right then--not at some point in the future.

"This is the revelation for which you have been waiting an entire lifetime." Well lets see ,we have the above pronouncement along with the "thirty year" quest aspect correlates nicely with: VPW account of how long he searched for and the importance of PFAL as being the only way to the keys of operating the word Then we have the prophecy aspect-- "before sundown September 2000"---Huh??? last time I checked there were 30 sundowns in September. This "prophecy" was made in March of 2000 (six months earlier). Anyone in the world who was paying attention to the political climate and the happenings in Israel would have been deaf and dumb to not realize that a powder keg was about to blow. in Israel political upheaval between Arabs and Jews ALWAYS plays itself out in some degree or another within Jerusalem the holy city to both. So no big revelation here either

If someone who is not a believer cannot have a mind that is being renewed, how is it that 1000's of unbelievers are converted to Christianity every month all over the world?? They could not be converted unless there mind was being renewed so that the Gospel could take hold. And to say that a non-believer cannot love their neighbor as they wish them selves to be loved, that they cannot treat their neighbor with the same kind and caring considerations that they would want to be treated flies in the face of common sense. THere are thousand of non-believers who everday exemplify Christian virtue while not being Christians

Probably --but sin is sin. And all can be forgiven except Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost and I am stilll not sure what that entails

forgivness is always appropriate when we have been wronged by another. BUt, as to what forgiveness entails, I have always found it fascinating that Christ on the cross " Father forgive them....." Not "I forgive them..." or even speaking directly to the crowd "I forgive you....." From this and other verses, " as ye forgive so shall ye be forgiven" ( that may not be exactly correct since I am sans Bible at the computer), it was driven home to me that what is important is that the wrongdoer in your life not be held accountable before the Almighty for his sin. That was a huge step for me when I could say of my ex husband. " God, I ask that you not hold against him any of the wrongs he has done me" then extend that to others that I regard as toxic and do not want anywhere in my life. Then I found I could pray "Heavenly Father please, bless, protect and guide my enemies..........." Too many churches have tried to twist forgiveness into this knot of "you must forgive and forget" "if you never want to have anything to do with that person you really haven't forgiven" etc etc. The whole issue is how will God look at the wrongdoers and your respective sins. If those who have wronged you are sin free in that regard because God has already forgiven their sins at your behest while you were still on earth, then it stands to reason that GOd will forgive your sins because of the mercy you have extended to your fellow man. The Atonement of Christ is for those sins that GOd hasn't forgiven, and it is presumptuous of the aforementioned churches to assume that God cannot or will not forgive outside of the atonement when scripture clearly states the contrary.

Since we will be shown all of our life when we stand before God, we will most definitely remember and see all of our sins. Once that point is passed , and operating on the assumption that Christ has stepped up for you, those sins will no longer exist-so since they no longer exist they cannot be remembered. If you, on the other hand, are one of those whom Christ does not claim as his own- said sins will still exist and so can be remembered. Or at least that is my understanding.

"the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" That was another of VPW taking something and twisting it to fit so he could use it to furthuer his agenda. If you instead say "the Love of God in manifestation" you have agape. That "renewed mind" inserted in there was the millstone around our necks. Everytime we failed to "bless" leadership we were told to renew our minds. Every wrong we did was due to lack of a renewed mind. This was at the rank and file level-- I cannot begin to comprehend what it was like at the corps level. Loving your neighbor as yourself -- means extending agape love It means, when your neighbors are having a party and the reverberating music is making the migraine you already had feel like Gimli son of Gloin and his entire family are mining for mithril just behind your left eye, before heading out the door you take a moment to think how you would want to be approached regarding the problem if the shoe was on the other foot INSTEAD of just going over, in your pain wracked state, yelling at them to "Turn it DOwn!!"

I don't know that I ever thought it was the real deal. I joined to save a relationship that should have been chucked out the door in the first place. I spent the next five years trying to understand how it could be considered the real deal.

Back on Waydale I posted as "Maure" Agape--means unconditional love--the kind of Love that Heavenly Father extends to me when I ask for forgivness for the 12,358,269,546,213,256 time for being arrogant, critical, and nasty toward my fellow man. Does GOd think that anyone but Jesus Christ is ever going to get it 100% right all the time? I doubt it. However, we are admonished to follow in Christ's footsteps. It doesn't say that on occassion we won't loose the trail, but what it does say is that when we do loose the trail we seek and find it again and trudge onward. Reality --- the more often we practice "love your neighbor as you love yourself" the more often that we will experience agape love and the easier it will become to continue to practice it and it will become easier to stay on the trail and not get lost.

YOu know you are in a cult if you are doing things that you would have found repugnent before joining that have been elevated to a "blessing" toward someone , other than yourself.

Personaly, my spellig has all ways stunk and now with me not having spell check on this computer I am truelly lost. as for punquation, I always go with the assumption that more, is bettor. You, can never have two, many commas>

Section 8 housing isn't the problem. Help in meeting the high costs of renting for people who, for whatever reason, are legitmately unable to do so, is part of being the charitable kind of society we are. The problem, as one who sees much of what Dot is complaining about, is absentie or indifferent landlords who collect the money and do the bare minimum to keep the places up to code. Landlords who screen applicants to see if vandalism and property destruction is part of their past, and who immediately evict tenents who violate strict leasing contracts, by drug use, loud parties, excessive visitors etc., as well as maintaining the property in a clean, well groomed, and functional , manner attract people who are using Section 8 to get on their feet and are honest hard working people.

The probem isn't that there are things in life that could be said to be black and white. It is when black and white is the only way we can view the world. Take our little discuission above about the word "fear". THe black and white thinking here is extremely apparent when greek words must be found , extrapolations made and explanations made that loop backwards onto themselves all in an attempt to make the original example be true, Since for it to be be false would mean that VPW was wrong. And VPW being wrong would not fit into the black and white thinking of VPW and PFAL are right.

HUh?? So the mother didn't kill her child with her fear it was the fear she had that killed her child??? Fear is an emotion it has no form or being it can't "DO" anything. the bottom line in this example is that the fear, which would not have existed without the mother having said emotion, was the underlying cause of the child's death. Hence , if you buy into this, it was the mother's fault her child died because she brought the emotion into being. "medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine" THere is no such field in medicine. Psychosomatic is more commonly referred to as hypochondria. Do 70-80% of hypochondriacs have spritual problems --could be but this one illness hardly speaks to the rest of the diseases that may occur in the human population. I also notice that no reference was made as to what medical article these figures and assertions were found in. Looks like more of VPW's made out of whole cloth examples. Again, this is an attempt on your part to make sense out of what VPW taught. Don't you see that the fact you have to go to this length to make sense out of what VPW taught means that his teaching on this subject makes no sense??? There is nowhere that VPW says what you say above. Don't you think that if that is what he meant he would have just come out and said it??? Don't you think that the reason he didn't might just have to do with the fact that he was spouting "doctrine" which sounded good on superficial levels but could not stand under close inspection?? Or not, there are many people who are fearful and have no belief in God that lead perfectly fine lives. So do they lead lives that are all they could be??--I don't know. As for me I will follow the Lord, but I eschew making blanket statements regarding the spritual state of my fellow man since that isn't my job but God's Could very well be, in fact in the case of TWI probably was true in more cases than not. But to try and make a correlation between, a dead child, a mother's fear, a mother's spritual state, hypochondria and tithing so far stretchs the envelope as to be --well, unbelievable.

I am always amazed tha so many here on GSC assume that LCM has not or is not posting here at GSC. After all if he gives a fake name and selects a neutral posting name who would ever know that it is Him?? the assumption that he would be forthright enough to ask to join GSC or post here using his true identity is IMO seriously flawed.

10. You think it is normal for your husband to attend meetings men only that you are not allowed at but other women are 9. The fact you have a messy house has nothing to do with three kids, a lazy man and working full time, but rather your lack of "meekness to recieve the Word" 8. You spend more time on studying individual words than you do in reading entire verses. 7. "in Context" only applies when it agrees with VPW''s teachings 6. "going out" means that there is a branch meeting 5. "summer vacation" means going to a campout in a second rate campground with people who regard you as someone to be avoided. 4. You are expected to drop eveything and come up with 3 dozen home made fresh baked cookies and transport them across town by 6 pm and it is 4pm now and you have three kids and a husband to feed before 6pm. 3. you have books in your house which declare the holocast of WWII never happened. 2 You spend time cleaning leaderships house but when you ask for help cleaning your house you are reproved for letting the Devil spirit of Confusion in through your open spritual trapdoor AND THE NUMBER ONE reason you will know that you are in TWI ........ is when the most watched video in your home is of a scrawny man dress in white with a rainbow hued headband cavorting across a stage with quasi dance moves in front of a multi colored flexing ameoba..................

Best of luck to you and yours. Happy Mother's Day.

First an historical correction: In the colonies ,which later became the United States of America, no one was ever "burned at the stake" for practicing withcraft. Hanging was the preferred method, Gilesl Corey was killed by being pressed to death by stones piled on a board across his chest, and, if memory serves, there were some who drowned while being dunked in water to see if they floated --but no burnings Now back to the question There is a difference between a churches Canon of beliefs and behaviors which certain groups within the church have adopted as "correct" For example within the LDS faith the canon of beliefs, called the Articles of Faith, says, in part: That we believe in God, the Eternal father and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. That Men will be punished for their sins and not the transgression of Adam. That all men may be saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ by obeying the principles and commandmets of the Gospel That the first 4 principles of obiedience [sic] are, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the recieving of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. other parts of the canon call for accepting that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet of God, we are required to obey the laws of our government, we are to adhere to the principles of chasity, kindness, charity ...... You get the idea This is the canon-- If you don't agree with the canon you have several options: you can attend LDS services, parties etc and enjoy the fellowship without ever becoming a member. You can renounce your membership, and still attend LDS Services, parties , etc and enjoy the fellowship. BUt what the church will not sanction, nor should it be expected to, is you retaining your membership in the church, while declaring or behaving in such a manner that suggests that all or part of the Articles of Faith are not true or preaching doctrine contrary or undermining to the Articles of Faith all the while declaring yourself to be LDS thus giving the impression that this is what the LDS Church represents. How long would any organization survive if it's membership were allowed to go about spreading lies about what the organization stands for or denouncing what they believe?? Clearly those persons who engage in such practices should not expect that the organization they are thus maligning should be required to permit them to retain their membership in said orgainization. That said, denouncing the canon of a faith is not the same as not accepting, which for lack of a better word, I call "home grown ideaology". For example there are groups of individual LDS in this country who feel that playing any card game with the face cards (JQK) is of the devil and avoid people who do. Is this canon? No. Does the church care which side of this issue you are on? No. There are LDS who will tell you that keeping the Sabbath holy means that you are not allowed to watch any TV on Sunday. Is this canon? No? Does the church sanction you for watching TV on the Sabbath? No. So if you are talking about the church intervening or watching out for these "home grown Ideaologies" That is not what an "inquistion" is about UNLESS said "home Grown Idealogies" threaten or undermine the canon. An inquistion, or as markomalley put it an "inquiring", is done when it is brought to the attention of the bishopric of a ward that someone is commiting adultry, breaking the civil law by commiting robbery, rape etc., spreading doctrince contrary to the LDS canon and, so forth and so on. When that happens all parties are questioned by the bishopric and inquiries are made as to the truth of said allegations. Once it has been established that the allegation is true, a member may be "punished" in several ways all the way from a repremand [sic] to excommunication. This is not done because hurting the individual so punished is something the church desires but rather so that a clear messaage is sent that the church will not tolerate the destruction of the Canon that it is founded upon. Why anyone would want to associate with a group on a regular basis with whom they disagreed with is beyond me, rather like choosing to spend time with your abusive ex husband IMO.

The following are not acceptable Murder-- by which I mean the wanton killing of another person for reasons other than the protection of ones home, life, another innocent life, the termination of anothers life as an act of mercy, (I do not say I condone this last but I understand it) or the execution of a criminal. Theft-- the taking of anothers material goods without permission unless society recognizes that certain things while belonging to the individual belong to the community as a whole. in the Inuit society for example if your axe for cutting firewood disappears you are free to take your neighbors and use it since fire is the difference between life and death. ( it was hard to get use to this essentials belong to the community when I was married to my first husband as his brothers descended on my refrigerator at the end of the month just before thier paydays LOL) Adultry--no matter whether practicing monogamy, polygamy, or polyandry, the bonds formed by such groups are generally regarded as inviolate. I cannot think of any society or group which condones the above three actions except as outlined The following are considered neccessary The support and honoring of the family as central --family being a fluid term which can extend beyond the nuclear family to extended family and friends who become family. The extending to others outside of the core family group, who are not enemies, general good will and wishes for sucess in their endeavors. A consideration for those less fortunate, outside of the family/friend core, which is exemplified by assitance with food, housing, clothing , medical whether done individually or by contributing money and time to a group dealing with these issues. I cannot think of any society or group which does not espouse these in some manner Therefore, it is clear that there are universal guidelines which mankind as a whole has discovered are necessary for the peaceful continuation of the species and has thus universally adopted no matter what religious persuasion or lack thereof may exist in the group. Religion seeks to codify exactly how the good is to be accomplished, how the bad is to be avoided, and the relationship of the individual to God. But it is clear that "good" is not only practiced by Christians no more than "bad" is only practiced by non-Christians

Also the Inquisition was used to solidify the power of Ferdinand and Isabella and the unification of Aragon and Castille. Most "inquisitions" have at their foundations a political necessity that is covered with a veneer of saintliness.