templelady

Actually God was saying exactly that. I was just too determined to make my relationship with Big Steve work to listen. I was still in my "doormat" stage, still holding on the the belief system that said it was the woman's job to make "her man" happy, still believing that when things went wrong it was somehow my fault and therefore my responsibility to fix. The roots of this belief system were grounded in a childhood with a paranoid schizophrenic mother. I was ideal prey for any pathological sociopath and had managed to hook up with a king of this form of predator. This lack of rational thought process on my part, this lack of willingness to come out of my self created box that I called life, caused not only me but more importantly my children years of life altering pain. It has taken years of self intropspection and therapy to shed these toxic beliefs, and even today I can find myself slipping back into some of the old thought patterns unless I am vigilant. The fact that most of the leadership from VPW on down were sociopathic, some to a greater degree than others, meant that people like my husband, Rich Urquhart, G and C K---, S and P A---------, to name but a few in AK had a safe haven to practice their behaviors. Instead of protecting and nourishing those of us who were being abused, the abusers were exalted and sustained. Were the "victims" part of the problem? Of course we were. Any adult of average or better mental capacity is ultimately responsible for the choices they make in this life. However, just because this is true, this truth in no way relieves TWI etal of the fact that their arrogance and willingness to turn a blind eye to sociopathic behavior at the highest levels of the organization compounded and exacerbated the problem.

Indeed, happiest of B-DAys to you

The nice thing about museums is that they give you a chance to experience other viewpoints in one spot. It has nothing to do with the validity of the viewpoint and everything to do with living in the great country we do where the freedom to express and promote ideas is extended to everyone. And who knows, even if you never embrace what this museum has to offer position wise, you will still possibly come away with a different understanding of why they believe what they do and maybe a few questions of your own, that you can find answers to at your leaisure.

Midland, which when you consider my dad's family was from southwest Iowa isn't too far off. My grandfather and my dad's older brothers and sisters were all born there so that is the accent I grew up around. My mom's folks were from England so the Americanizaton of some of their pronunciations came from listening to news etc on radio and TV.

The answer as to whether what I am doing is what Christ would do or what a Christian should do, can for me only come from my understanding of what Chirst would want me to do. So if I lack understanding or knowledge in an area any decisions I make will reflect that lack. Many times I am not sure so then I have to think about it in other ways. Will doing what I am thinking about cause problems in my life whether financial, physical or other? Will doing what I am thinking about cause others to be hurt unneccessarily? Do I have some deep doubts as to whether I think my conduct would be considered as proper? Would I care if everyone I know knows what I am going to do, or do I have a need to keep it secret from certain people Usually honestly answering the above will give a pretty good indication as to whether the course of action under consideration is a good thing or a bad thing. When all else fails most of us have a pretty good Idea of what we should or should not do--the problem is when we act without thinking it through.

I too, have overcome most brainwashing --that leaves the important question-- What brainwashing haven't I overcome? and If I'm brainwashed in those areas won't the brainwashing prevent me rom realizing I'm brainwashed in those areas? Now see what has happened-- I'm going to have to start thinking in order to weed out the rest of the brainwashing Oh woe is me!

What should be your criteria, if you are a Christian, is "Is what I am doing something that God would approve of?" If it isn't I shouldn't be doing it. If I have a friend who demands that I do otherwise, I probably need to cut that friend loose. Note I didn't say "if my friend is not doing what God approves of I should cut him loose" my statement was only regarding what my friend was demanding of me, in other words, MY ACTIONS. TWI and many many other churches, have taken this most common sense of positions and added a whole plethora of other criteria. IF your friends, drink, dance, gamble, if they go to a different church, if they read certain books, or don't go to church get away from them- goes their party line. Always wondered how we are to show our friends about the Love of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ if we are only friends with those who agree with us theologically. We are to be lights. One candle in a room filled with candles is just another candle. One candle in a pitch black cellar is light to see the dangers by. If anything, we should hold our friends who are wandering in darkness even closer letting them experience the love of God through our hearts and actions. Living behind walls whether physical or psychological and letting no one in and never venturing out, does no one any good. Not only are others deprived of learning from you, but you can only stagnant and loose whatever you had.

I am quite literal when it comes to labeling a group or an individual as Satanic or a Satanist. Satanic groups are those who actively worship Satan and repudiate Heavenly Father as the personage deserving of worship. A Satanist is a person who worships Satan as his/her Lord and repudiates Heavenly Father as a personage deserving of worship. An atheist is not a Satanist because they do not worship Satan An Agnostic is not a Satanist because the do not worship Satan Non-Chrisitians are not Satanist nor are their belief systems Satanic UNLESS they worship Satan Christians who are not trinitarians are not Satanists becasue they do not worship Satan. Christians who are trinitarians are not Satanists becasue they do not worship Satan Pagans etal are not Satanists unless Satan worship is what they practice in their form of paganism This idea that if you aren't a Christian and the correct kind of Chrsitian to boot, you are automatically in Satan's camp defies common sense as well as being scriptually unsound. "neither hot nor cold......." Clearly Heavenly Father recognizes that there is a whole bunch of lukewarmism in the world. That is not saying that God is happy with lukewarm because he clearly isn't, but is also is clear that a distinction is made between luke warm and being part of the "enemy" camp.

They told the little children that children who misbehaved were worthy of being Stoned?????????????????????? Oh dear GOd, please tell me this isn't true. How incredibly cruel. I thought TWI couldn't sink any lower in my estimation -- If this is true---I was wrong it canm and has.

In the case of my children I think it would be more accurate to say---- "My children are scars with some human on them" I don't mean to sound flip, but what my children experienced, and what they have become today, is so much a product of what they suffered at the hands of my ex and TWI leadership here in AK as to render an objective viewpoint on my part on this topic virtually impossible.

My understanding from reading here and talking to others about what went on in the nineties, is that it became even more outlanding in the "laws" that were put into place regarding the treatment of leadership. Not just the standing when they came into a room, chair stringing, 10 minutes early was being on time, etc. that was part of my time in TWI; but things as mundane as dictating that the chairs they sat in must be Queen Anne style, ther positioning in the room, the number of breath mints, the positioning of water glasses, and on and on. I still find it amazing that a ministry that cried "Grace!" at every turn to justify the most obscene of conduct, had, as part and parcel of its doctrines, laws that covered the most minute of human actions. Talk about tithes of mint and cummin!

Not to come back at all for two reasons, LCM, or anyone else for that matter, should only have to do this journey once. The world should not be subject to having LCM in their world at any level a second time

Yeah, the Debil Spurt named "Jesus" thing was a common topic here in AK. As to God speaking to you first, from what I experienced first hand, God almost never spoke to me, per leadership, because I was not "meek to recieve". I, therefore, was on the receiving end of a barrage of information , advice, and demands on a daily basis. Actually God, was speaking to me, what He was saying was "get out ! Get OUT Now!". So if leadership was really hearing from God, about what He wanted me to know, they would have been told to come to me with the following message-"You are to leave The Way International with your children immediately." Since that never happened, it is obvious that one of two things was happeining in their lives, they weren't listening either, or God never spoke to them about me.

I need to clarify my position on the apostle Paul. My feelings that I stated above came about as a direct result of Paul, and his teachings in the epistles, being used by TWI to justify thier positions. After having been through TWI and what havoc it wrecked in my world, Paul was just part of the problem as far as I was concerned. It has taken all these years, and in fact is still a work in progress, for me to understand the love Paul had for his readers, to understand that Paul was just trying to convey that if he could follow Christ's footsteps it was possible for all of us to do so. TWI in using Paul to justify their arrogance, did a great disservice to those who looked to the epistles for love and solace. Just another grievence to lay at their door.

What beautiful young ladies. Talented to boot Brag on, Mom!

We had long teachings on how we must always refer to Christ as Jesus Christ not just Jesus because there was a devil spirit named "Jesus" and if we just said Jesus we would be talking to the devil spirit. No one ever explained how or where the information came from that there was a devil spirit named "Jesus". They most definitely, never explained, at least that I am aware of, how it could happen that if you were speaking to Jesus Christ when you said "Jesus" He, the Jesus who is my lord and savior, would not know it was Him you were addressing. At best Christ was portrayed, as someone who had done his job and was now resting from his labors. "The Word" was our blueprint. Specifically the word from Acts on. Because everything before Acts belongs to a different "dispensation", thus TWI relieved us of the pesky problem of when behavior was contradictory to the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. I became totally, disgusted with the apostle Paul, I found him to be an egotistical, woman hating, self serving little tyrant. This attitude was aided by the twisting of scripture to fit this picture. NO, when all was said and done, TWI fostered in us the desire only to read the approved materials and check to make sure that our understanding of what we saw in black and white on the printed pages of our Bibles coincided with TWI positions. If perchance, what we read happened to not agree with what TWI said it meant then it was a mistranslation, lack of context, or not true to the original aramaic. TWI did a wonderful job of pushing not only Christ out of the picture, but the apostles as well, bringing them back on stage only when they could bolster a TWI belief. As for Heavenly Father, he was pictured smiling benevolently on this travesty as VPW proclaimed that he was "teaching the Word as it had not been taught since the first century church". It is a miracle that so many of us came out of TWI and were able to reestablish a relationship with Christ and Heavenly Father. There should be far more of us who threw up our hands in disgust and walked away from Christianity etal after years of these pernicious teachings. Clearly Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost were busy looking out for us, and waiting for us to break free, so that we could return to a relationship with them free of TWI insanity.

IMO, the stated purpose of PFAL is totally meaningless if the actual purpose of PFAL was not the same. To keep going back to the stated purpose of PFAL and completely ignore the fact that PFAL DID NOT live up to the stated purpose, in fact it was in some instances completely contrary to the stated purpose, is disengenuous [sic] at best. VPW plagiarized, VPW twisted scripture to suit his own theories, VPW defined reasearch as studying to show that he was correct. All of them have the same root, deceit--deceit of others and self deceit. Thus the issue of plagiarism becomes core to the entire TWI and PFAL experience- it is the foundational deceit.

Happiest of days my friend May you have many many more filled with sunshine and joy

Congratulations to your son and a big "Atta Parents!" to you and your wife for keeping him on track

Of course God gives the new birth by grace. No one is disputing that. What is being diputed is the fact that one you recieve the new birth you can go commit any kind of sin you want and stilll have your salvation. The new birth is one thing, you are made clean before God by Christs Atonement. Salvation is another thing, salvation means that you are covered by the atonement for the sins you commit after the new birth. The two are not the same In order for them to be the same the following would have to be true A person receives the new birth and then goes out and deliberately kills a person in an armed robbery of a store in order to get the money he needs--but because he experienced the new birth his salvation is secure and he will occupy the same place in heaven as a person who has always lived the best Christian life they could. This is so completely counter to everything that the Bible teachs that it would be laughable but for the fact that there are so many people out there who accept it as true. Living your life in a way that glorifies God and exemplifies Christ-like behavior is not an attempt to gain salvation through works. Rather it is the actions of someone who truly embraces the message that Christ brought. If any kind of behavior is acceptable after the new birth, then VPW and LCM's actions should have never had an adverse effect on those around them since they were not contrary to the teachings of Christ. You can't have it both ways-- VPW and LCM experienced the new birth and therefore any acts they commited that would be regarded as sin in most circles were rendered null and void by that birth. Since they were rendered null and void not only were VPW and LCM not to be held to be held to account for them, they did not have to ask forgiveness for them on any front because having had the new birth they were automatically "held harmless" for them and they could continue on their merry way. It is just too bad if the people they victimized don't feel unharmed. OR VPW and LCM experienced the new birth and when they commited sinful acts, they were required to, repent, and ask God for forgiveness, AND THEN LIVE THEIR LIVES IN SUCH A WAY AS THOSE SINS WERE NOT REPEATED ESPECIALLY NOT DELIBERATELY. The part of the previous sentance that is in bold capitals is what is called "works", folks. That is what the Bible means by "works"--not always some grand action towards others, although that too is considered a "work"-- but the continual perfection of your individual life in order to attempt to bring it in harmony with the life and walk of Christ. To say that "works" is not necessary for salvation, as TWI maintained was the case, just doesn't stand up to Biblical standards on any level. Faith without works is dead. Having the new birth is meaningless if it brings no changes or improvements to the character and actions of the person experiencing it. the Bible mentions that it would be preferable to God that you were cold, rather than neither hot or cold, since he will "spew you out of His mouth" ion that case. "Neither Hot nor cold', refers to the the people with the new birth whose "works" do not reflect the same. Be very clear --the co mingling of the idea of the "new Birth" with "salvation" to make them one and the same was concieved of and promoted in TWI, just as elsewhere, for the sole purpose of permitting the guilty to continue their lives without having to apologize or in any way make restitution for their sinful actions. Salvation is the gift given by God at the judgement seat when Christ steps forward and says" Father, I paid for this persons sins, with my blood", and God reponds to the soul standing before Him "well done, good and faithful servant." The "new birth" is the original cleansing of a person in this life of all his past sins as he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior in anticipation of theday he will stand at the Judgement Seat. What falls between these two events is most definitely governed by the "works" we perform. whether good or bad, and how we approach the Almighty when we fall short of the mark.

When we are seeking to master a subject, we read others, we compare their thoughts, we hold what they say up to a comparison with our own life experiences, we study the topic ourselves. Once we we have done all this we evaluate all we have learned and draw conclusions as to whether we agree with the majority, and how much we agree, then we put forward our own thoughts on the subject based on our research. If we come to a different conclusion then what has been postulated before us, we are then able to cite areas in which we disagree with a given person, and why, as well as giving our own theories and support for those theories. The person who plargiarizes, the person who lifts whole pages of someone else's work and presents them as thier own, misses vital steps in this process. Despite all of TWI's assertions that they were a Biblical research ministry- the reality is that they were anything but. True research of any subject leads the researcher to question and evaluate any preconceived ideas they hold. True research inspires the reseacher to change their beliefs if the evidence they uncover makes it necessary to do so. True research makes the reseacher eager to share their insights gained from their voyage of discovery. TWI on the other hand vigorously prohibited any of the above from happening, TWI vigorously denounced any who did the above and came up with something outside of the party line. If true research were being done by VPW, then no matter what others said in disagreement with his position he would have had the intellectual tools to re-research on his own and refute their arguments, or the intellectual honesty to admit that the newly presented viewpoint might indeed be the correct one and merit further investigation. This give and take of ideas, this changing of ideas as new evidence becomes available is what makes any organization or ideaolgy dynamic. The constant evolution of our understanding leads to a deeper appreciation of what is true and valuable. VPW not only stole from others he prevented himself from growing intellectually and spiritually by doing so. In so limiting himself, he found himself compelled to limit others by autocratic demands for complete obiedience to his dictates, since what he came to fear most were those who possessed the ability to truly research the topic at hand.

Happy Birthday--may it be filled with love, joy and laughter

LDS are a covenant people. We believe our salvation is dependent on Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Son of God. Faith that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior having paid the penalty through His atonement for our sins. Faith that Jesus Christ broke the bonds of death. Last but not least, obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. When all these have been met we rest assured that at the Final Judgement Chirst will claim us as his own. If, as some claim, merely accepting the verses in Romans 10: 9-10 was sufficient then why does the NT repeatedly list those things that will cause a person not to inherit the kingdom of God?? Fornication, adultry, homosexualty, dishonesty... and the list goes on. If as VPW and TWI taught, and others also, it is once saved always saved -why did the apostles find it necessary, after Christ's death, to continually remind those who would follow in His footsteps that these behaviors were not allowed? It should have made no difference--but it clearly did make a difference then, and now. It isn't enough to pay lip service to the tenets of the Bible and specifically the teachings of Christ unless your actions and your life a a whole reflect those tenets and teachings. Right here at GSC, we see the confusion and pain the idea that VPW and LCM etal are somehow exempted from their behaviors, an idea propounded by proponents of this pernicious doctrine, has caused and continues to cause. A doctrine truly of Heavenly father would not cause pain and confusion but rather joy and harmony. Reality check if you truly believe Romans 10:9-10 and intend to follow Christ then you will automatically (not forced by the Holy Ghost) seek to do those things that He would have done. You will avoid doing those things that would cause Him and Heavenly Father pain. Will you always succeed? Of course not, that is what grace is for, that you can be forgiven when you fail and get back on the right path. There is a vast difference between the follower of Christ who stumbles and falls, dusts himself off and gets back to work perfecting his life, and the person who claims Romans 10: 9-10 and then carries on with business as usual no matter how it affects those around him. We are to live our lives so that we are a light unto the rest of the world, we become lights to others not by our words but by our actions. This is not salvation by works--since we can not perform works perfectly and perfection is what God requires, It is salvation by grace since the price Jesus Christ paid covers our less than perfect works.

A sensible person, not blinded by millions of dollars, would figure that they should make an effort to dress appropriately and be in court on time in this situation. But not Paris and her parents, nope, they don't show up at all, then when the judge demands Paris' attendence they try to claim he has to give them a phone-in hearing. It takes the sherrif to bring her in, in handcuffs and then she and her family proceed to disrespect the court by talking, praying, yelling, crying and whatever other shenanagins they can think of. There is another difference here between Paris and the rest of us-- Had we pulled the same thing as she and her parents pulled today, we would have been cited for contempt of court, fined and been given additional jail time.

It means he plagiarized. Whether he was/was not the MOG in no way changes this fact Whether he was/was not taught by God in no way changes this fact Whether TWI contains some or all of God's will in no way changes this fact. The teachings of VPW HAD been known since the first century church by others--elsewise there would have been no one for VPW to plagiarze. If the ideas you learn are hitherto unknown in your generation and come directly from God then NO ONE else has them, or has published them. As to being freeing of TWI and VPW and their teachings--that is a personal decision. Again, Plagiarism is a well defined set of behaviors that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the plagairists spiritual life, other teachings, or other behaviors. The fact one is a plagiarist, may very well contribute to how others percieve your character and the reliability of other things you say, however, being a plagiarist is NEVER ameliorated by other acts. You plagiarize then you are a plagiarist--plain and simple. I wish people would stop trying to make it far more complicated than this in an effort to pretend it didn't happen.