You gave us all a belly laugh, me included. You?re right on some accounts. The scene you described is a good cartoon of the not so well placed things I?ve posted, but omits the home runs I know I?ve hit. Daddy?s keeping score, so don?t ask me.
There?s one other fine tuning I?d do to make it a more accurate cartoon, one that better describes the contextual scene. Place that whole scene in the interior of my own rented house, in a large city that invited me in, when other cities had tarred and feathered me out.
This GreaseSpot City is the only free speech oriented city in the nation of grads. And free speech has been allowed MUCH farther than in any other grad cities could ever feel comfortable with. The way this freedom is accomplished (without us physically injuring each other) is the way the infrastructure of GreaseSpot City is set up.
We are able to dare and strain the temper limits of all hearers here, because of the physical separation the infrastructure imposes. The only way we can interact is through cyberspace visits to the Cafe, which is the tables of contents of all the forums. The thread name is the invitation to come and cybervisit at originator?s rented house, their ?own? thread. Paw?s the landlord and we pay him respect.
So the healing scene you depicted is in my rented house, this thread. You all line up in the waiting room and scream for appointments, barging in on treatment rooms for others, and I try to help each one by one.
I?m not trying to force my ?act? on anyone in their own homes. I may visit on invitation posted on the Cafe Tables... of contents, but I try to be as polite as possible and leave if it doesn?t work out.
Meanwhile back in my home, my clinic, once in a while I get one right, and that might be a future panel in your TuneVille version of GreaseSpot City and it?s most notorious Cafe where the projectile food, which comes off the plates and out of both holes, sometimes flies as far as other smaller distant grad cities, both cyber and pew.
quote:The feelings of hurt I see people expressing cause me to want to help. It hurts me to see people I care about hurting.
Mike, you can't heal an axe wound with the axe that caused the wound in the first place. Trying to heal the wounds caused by VPW's dispicable actions by exalting VPW's words into the Word of God, and then telling the victims that the only way to heal is to master these words is... well, rather ludicrous.
I disagree with your assessment of the cause, when you say ?with the axe that caused the wound.?
I see the cause as NOT the books.
When you say I?m ?telling the victims that the only way to heal is to master these words? you are getting it wrong.
I?m telling certain things to OLGs who are ready to do the work. A still hurting victim needs other things, different things, but few seem to be able to supply them, or quickly supply them. After a wave or two of OLGs start coming back to PFAL and mastering, the good results they get will inspire others to join in. I expect the still hurting victims to be largely healed at that time.
Meanwhile I?m willing to help them with a totally different message than ?master these words,? and not a public one either. I?ve offered this before. I don?t think those very difficult pains are healed in intensity of public debates. They are better healed in calm peaceful places.
The Overwhelming Majority Here Is Not Interested In ANY More PFAL, Even, And I Want To Make This ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, Even If The Winning Lotto Numbers Are Written In Small Print On Every Page.
AND IF THAT CAN'T SINK INTO THAT THICK HEAD OF YOURS, EVEN IF I WERE IN THE SLIGHTEST BIT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING FURTHER ABOUT PFAL, I WOULDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT FROM SOMEONE WHOSE WALKIE-TALKIE IS PERMANENTLY LOCKED ON "SEND".
HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU, BUT THIS "GRAD CITY" ISN'T THE PLACE FOR VPW WORSHIP EITHER, AND YOUR CONTINUOUS SERMONIZING IS IRRITATING FAR MORE PEOPLE THAN IT IS POSSIBLY "REACHING".
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
My analogy was not about root causes. We could say that the axe caused the wound, but was it really the axe or the person wielding the axe? Or does it go even deeper. I supose it depends upon one's prospective. But in any case, without the axe there would be no wound.
Get this straight Mike. Dr. Victor Paul Weirwille used his position of authority as a supposed man of God as a vehicle to feed his lust for sex and power. He betrayed and abused those who looked to him for spiritual help and guidance. He did it repeatedly and without repentance. He was a serial abuser and he led other down the same path. Oh, and yes, he happened to write a few books with some pretty good Bible stuff in them as well.
But telling those that he betrayed and abused to get healed by mastering those books is absurd and laughable, even if the keys to being healed were in them. The reasons should be rather obvious.
Why would a rape victim want to rely upon books written by the rapist in order get healed? Suggesting such is rubbing salt into the wounds. It is naive and unthinking and it slaps the victims in the face. Besides, if a spiritual solution is being sought, there are other books and sources with the same and even better information - books that were not written by the rapist, but rather by folks with integrity and true compassion that did not go around betraying and abusing their followers while trying to fulfill their own lusts.
Mike, If you cannot get this then you are as dumb as a box of rocks or you just don't give a damn about anyone or anything but yourself and your own ideas.
If I do my "mastering PFAL" posts ON ANOTHER WEBSITE, is it still irritating?
IN other words, would a person who sees it their mission from God to stop me here at GS, feel towards me that "this internet aint big enough for the both of us" ?
Mike - are you that egotistical as to think that you have followers? Are you so self-important that you think anyone is going to search the internet looking for your rubbish, and try to stop you from spewing it? Get over yourself, man. Nobody is that interested.
The consensus seems to be that as long as you keep posting this guff here, you will receive back grief.
And furthermore, anytime you post and your attitude is NOT "I am an expert on everything and LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU", posters respond much more favorably.
As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome here, but your viewpoints about docvic(praise be his name) and piffle and mirrors are about as welcome as LCM would be.
Hey! I just want to clean up a few loose ends I am aware of, before posting on the topic again. There may be some I?m not aware of, so hit me with them now, ok? I want to move on with more high surety data from the record.
***One loose end is this. I don?t want to irritate anyone. Goey, I think people who have had difficult times with VPW in the past should avoid my threads. I don?t expect them to follow my suggestions in mastering PFAL. I think healing should come first for them. If I said something on another?s thread that?s truly offending to those dealing with sexual damage, then I will edit it out and admit it wasn?t best said in that place and/or in that way. I do make mistakes and I like correcting them. Abigail did this and we had a wonderful e-mail discussion about it. I admire her for it greatly, and told her. I?d like to imitate it where appropriate. I?m willing to strike something from the public record at their request, for these threads I visit. On MY thread topics I want to steer AWAY from issues sexual. I think it?s an emotional distraction to the topic I have to bring to the table. It?s wise for people who hurt in these areas (or who hurt in these areas WITH someone close to them) to avoid my threads if they feel on the less energetic side in the area of having total control of their emotions. If it?s not the best day or hour for them to steer AWAY from issues sexual, along with me, then I?d advise it?s better to wait until a more energetic day comes along. I HAVE advised a few of my old grad friends, who?ve never seen Grease Spot, to make sure they?re well rested before reading any of the forums here. I try to do that myself too.
***Another loose end is this, and I shouldn?t have to say this, so maybe I should SHOUT it, but all seriousness aside, I don?t think it?s fair to use red fonts. The false air of authority they carry when used on this board has our Western culture?s signature of authority, as used in Red Letter Editions of the Bible. Zixar, you almost convinced me I was wrong with my entire thesis when I hit your last post, and I almost threw in the towel! If it hadn?t been for the crash prone operating system I?m stuck with, blue screening me just in the Nick of time, I?d have been in Danger of loosing my faith. From now on, until this matter of the blasphemous misuse of over-convincing red fonts is settled, I?m draping my monitor with a red filtering blue cellophane shield.
***For the humor impaired, I am now placing my tongue back in it?s normal position, from it?s ?in cheek? position.
***Still no one has wanted to apply Pawtucket?s Principle to the ?Why Believe the Bible? question with me on these threads? I guarantee the end of those discussions for me would be saying I believe in the Bible, and that it?s the revealed Word of God. Those of you who DO believe in the Bible, I hope that at least you?re thinking about it. It?s healthy, because when bigger tests of your faith come along (bigger than me, MUCH bigger than me) you?ll be MUCH better prepared for them. And double that for OLGs. As a student of science and the history of science I have seen other people say things similar to Pawtucket?s Principle. That?s why I got so excited when he first said it. Very similar things were said by Einstein about the way he discovered relativity AND said by Einstein when explaining his theory to early critics who couldn?t buy it because it was so VERY extremely against the most near and dear things in the tradition of modern science, then already a few hundred years old.
***Speaking of science... Dr Diazbro, you addressed my only visiting post on another thread, and for the simplicity of thread minimization I?d like to answer you briefly here. When I said the ?genome expresses itself,? I lumped into that one word ?expresses? all the notion of nature and nurture, including all learning. I was being purposely brief and not over technical. It wasn?t intended to be a scientific statement. I was emphasizing the NATURAL/FACTUAL side of the equation, even though that was not the thread topic where I was visiting. It?s been on my mind, you see. My use of ?genome? was a figure of speech where I epitomized the natural/factual approach by using scientific sounding words. Science is the epitome of the 5-senses approach to truths. It works well with trivial truths, but lousy with the big Truths in the SPIRITUAL/TRUE category ......When I used the phrase ?bell curve? it may have hit some Politically Correct buttons I didn?t intend at all. Ten or fifteen years ago a book with that title cause a big stir. I never read it, but I read a lot ABOUT the stir it caused on academic campuses around the world. My exposure to the phrase ?bell curve? goes back many years before that controversial book was published, back to simple statistics mathematics. I stopped tracking how the phrase ?bell curve? is reacted to by the university crowd in recent years. For at least three years back in the 90?s the phrase ?bell curve? was a PC taboo. Campus protocol around those far removed from statistics classes required a painful facial expression if it had to be enunciated. My use of the phrase was it?s usage twenty years prior to that 90?s trend............. If you want to discuss this more, maybe e-mail would be best because it?s far from topic. Or maybe we could use the private topic option. I haven?t learned that yet.
***So, that?s what I wanted to say before resuming the thread topic. The sun is almost out here, so I?m off to work for a while. Any loose ends are welcome. I tried to answer most posts, but I?m sure some slipped by me.
I am new to this thread and I doubt I will post more than this one letter.
It pains me to see the strife between all who have posted here. Indeed there are 9 pages of it. Thank God I did not waste my whole evening reading through every post.
I think the one question I have about all of this is why is PFAL the subject of the thread? There are many of us who have done what you suggested and studied the PFAL materials after we left TWI. I have learned much since then. And learned primarily who I am in Christ.
My identity is intact because of what I have learned about Jesus Christ in the Word and specifically the epistles. God makes it pretty clear and easy to understand. I read what you write and wonder if my 11 year old could learn anything from your posts about who he is in Christ and I have to say he would be lost in the first post. Even a child need not err therein.
Your assertion that there is some group (OLG) who this thread is directed is a bit silly when you consider that God provided his son for the church, the whole church. There are not special groups within the body of Christ. One body, one head.
Even if VPW was the man of God that you profess he was, why is there a small group within the larger body of Christ who are being blessed with a special level of understanding from God's Word (PFAL grads)? The Colossians had a similar problem with a group called the gnostics who felt that they had a special connection to God because of their advanced knowledge and the secret things they shared with a select few. Paul makes it very clear that the one thing they needed was what they already had, Christ. Even a child need not err therin. God does not want his grace revealed in a cloud of of facts, figures and points.
At this point I would not even consider arguing what is in PFAL, I have seen things in God's Word that make some of what is in PFAL inaccurate. VPW himself used to say that when we teach one thing and find out later that we were wrong we correct the error, publicly.
How long will it take us to get to the point where we can do this with the PFAL materials? There are many people who have quietly continued studying God's Word year after year and the one thing I can say is that God WANTS his grace known. It does not need to be revealed in a manner that takes years and years to begin to understand some of its depth. It can be understood and declared very quickly. This is death to life, how much deeper can you get?
All of your posts about dichotomy and details have not proved in any greater way about God's Grace. You assert that the answers to the hurts that people are experiencing are within the PFAL materials. Assuming you are right why would we declare the PFAL materials rather than God's Word itself? Is not the point of PFAL to give the participants an opportunity to understand and have a relationship with God's Word? Is it not possible that there are people who have done this very thing? If I now have a relationship with God's Word should I take a step backwards to PFAL?
And for those who have had their mouths soured by their experiences isn't God big enough to work with them and continue comforting their hearts and revealing his Word to them? Or is that not available anymore since the revelation in PFAL has now been revealed? Is the PFAL materials now the only way for this group to attain spiritual understanding? Kinda sounds like another gospel to me...
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I can understand your dismay. This situation has a rich set of details to be aware of, and jumping in at the end of this thread does give you a limited perspective of exactly what I?m talking about.
It may sound like another gospel, but on closer inspection, it lines up with it.
If anything other than Paul?s gospel is ?another? gospel, then I, II, And III John might be suspect. Ditto for Revelation, and Peter?s epistles.
PFAL is in the same line as the Pauline epistles, just like Peter?s and John?s writings are are.
God was allowed back then to address a few epistles to other than the usual audiences of ?Jew, Gentile and Church of God? with the Timothy, Titus, and Philemon letters. Others can read and learn from them too. It may be argued that sections of John?s Book of Revelation is addressed to certain groups.
God is allowed to address some words primarily to one group if He wants to. He did. Others can read and learn if they are interested, but that?s a big if. There is a specific job to be done, and the PFAL writings are for those who want to do it.
That job is the WOW program updated, improved, supercharged. The spiritual understanding of Word Over the World is called for here.
The 5-senses meaning of WOW is God?s Word spreading across the surface of the planet earth.
The spiritual meaning of WOW is our understanding rising from the earthly sense knowledge Bible understanding to the HIGHER spiritual understanding of God?s Word.
Much more still needs to be posted before this subject will be totally understandable. Opening up the PFAL books again would be another must, if you want to see the integrity of what I?m presenting here. Dr?s dying last words to us, his final instructions to us, were to do this very thing, come back to PFAL and master it. The first time through we got a lot, but even more was placed in there by God to be utilized now. I find the second go around with PFAL much better than the first.
I appreciate the tone of your post, and would like be able to discuss these things further someday.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 19, 2003 at 2:51.]
[This message was edited by Mike on April 19, 2003 at 2:53.]
You talk a lot about the scriptures and speak very generally about what you believe certain things say in the gospels but rarely state specifically what the scriptures say.
As far as my not seeing enough of the posts to understand what you have said; I read enough. You always make assertions without much basis scripturally, always with the promise that you will explain it later.
God's Word is big enough to answer any questions we might have. You defend the PFAL materials as if they were the Word of God and yet you spend more time declaring the materials then you do God's Word.
As I said I do not want to make this a long series of points counterpoints as I see how you try to get people wrapped up in your endless dialogue.
Your words are not easily entreated. The are ambiguous and difficult to follow. This alone makes me question your assertions. God's Word is easily entreated. Think about it, if you really want to help people give them something to stand on, not scratch their head over.
The ?something to stand on? that I offer here is what Dr told us to master: the PFAL writings.
This is a much more substantial foundation from which to see God's Word than the KJV or any other 5-senses scholarly attempts to reconstruct the Bible in our language and culture and time. God has provided us this BETTER something to stand on, and so I talk about it. It got lost so it needs to be talked about, or you need it to be talked up around you. I think this is not immediately easily entreated for you because you are rusty on the material.
Yes, here at GS I talk ABOUT this Word which God taught Dr and Dr taught us, but sometimes here at GS I do bring in the actual words of God's Word. You have not seen all my posts, but there are many passages I?ve posted of the not-so-God-breathed KJV and many passages from the very-much-so-God-breathed PFAL writings. ...AND I am doing this more and more as it is appropriate.
In my own private life I read God?s Word directly a lot, think it a lot, and apply it a lot. It?s fun.
Let me assure you that the WordWolf analysis above is a collection of many facts alternating with fudge-facts. I?m not going to bother with the chore of trying to identify which alternating rungs on your ladder are correct and which incorrect. Whenever other posters represent me they do a lousy job, and you?re no exception WW. I?d rather speak for myself, thank you.
WW, you never admitted up front that you didn?t want to have a better definition of "master" to help you master the material, but it was pretty obvious to me that's how you felt. So, was my guess of your motive correct? If not, how are you doing with the not-so-recursive definition? Are you over your trauma over recursive definitions?
We might leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide which of your assertions were accurate as to how I?ve presented myself in the record here. As usual, I?m open to public discussion on the items of this little exercise, as well.
Looks to me like Wordwolf's description is pretty accurate. Not the words Mike would pick, but accurate nonetheless.
Mike does speak for himself, voluminously!
The only difference with Wordwolf's description is that he presents Mike's position as a bad thing, while Mike would present the same position positively.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
I disagree, strenuously! ...that WW's description of my beliefs is accurate.
There are causal connections and ?therefore?s that he got wrong or skewed. I don?t stand behind what he says. PERIOD. He has some facts correct, but in toto it?s wrong. It?s a checkerboard of fact and falsehood.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
Sirguessalot,
You gave us all a belly laugh, me included. You?re right on some accounts. The scene you described is a good cartoon of the not so well placed things I?ve posted, but omits the home runs I know I?ve hit. Daddy?s keeping score, so don?t ask me.
There?s one other fine tuning I?d do to make it a more accurate cartoon, one that better describes the contextual scene. Place that whole scene in the interior of my own rented house, in a large city that invited me in, when other cities had tarred and feathered me out.
This GreaseSpot City is the only free speech oriented city in the nation of grads. And free speech has been allowed MUCH farther than in any other grad cities could ever feel comfortable with. The way this freedom is accomplished (without us physically injuring each other) is the way the infrastructure of GreaseSpot City is set up.
We are able to dare and strain the temper limits of all hearers here, because of the physical separation the infrastructure imposes. The only way we can interact is through cyberspace visits to the Cafe, which is the tables of contents of all the forums. The thread name is the invitation to come and cybervisit at originator?s rented house, their ?own? thread. Paw?s the landlord and we pay him respect.
So the healing scene you depicted is in my rented house, this thread. You all line up in the waiting room and scream for appointments, barging in on treatment rooms for others, and I try to help each one by one.
I?m not trying to force my ?act? on anyone in their own homes. I may visit on invitation posted on the Cafe Tables... of contents, but I try to be as polite as possible and leave if it doesn?t work out.
Meanwhile back in my home, my clinic, once in a while I get one right, and that might be a future panel in your TuneVille version of GreaseSpot City and it?s most notorious Cafe where the projectile food, which comes off the plates and out of both holes, sometimes flies as far as other smaller distant grad cities, both cyber and pew.
.
.
.
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Goey
Mike, you can't heal an axe wound with the axe that caused the wound in the first place. Trying to heal the wounds caused by VPW's dispicable actions by exalting VPW's words into the Word of God, and then telling the victims that the only way to heal is to master these words is... well, rather ludicrous.
Goey
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Mike
Goey,
I disagree with your assessment of the cause, when you say ?with the axe that caused the wound.?
I see the cause as NOT the books.
When you say I?m ?telling the victims that the only way to heal is to master these words? you are getting it wrong.
I?m telling certain things to OLGs who are ready to do the work. A still hurting victim needs other things, different things, but few seem to be able to supply them, or quickly supply them. After a wave or two of OLGs start coming back to PFAL and mastering, the good results they get will inspire others to join in. I expect the still hurting victims to be largely healed at that time.
Meanwhile I?m willing to help them with a totally different message than ?master these words,? and not a public one either. I?ve offered this before. I don?t think those very difficult pains are healed in intensity of public debates. They are better healed in calm peaceful places.
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mj412
he has a plan
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sirguessalot
(chuckles)
A few home runs?
Maybe more like you got beaned by the pitcher and had to walk to first base.
(just kidding, it just seemed to match the atmosphere around you)
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excathedra
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Zixar
Mike: How could anyone be as dense as you?
The Overwhelming Majority Here Is Not Interested In ANY More PFAL, Even, And I Want To Make This ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, Even If The Winning Lotto Numbers Are Written In Small Print On Every Page.
AND IF THAT CAN'T SINK INTO THAT THICK HEAD OF YOURS, EVEN IF I WERE IN THE SLIGHTEST BIT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING FURTHER ABOUT PFAL, I WOULDN'T WANT TO HEAR IT FROM SOMEONE WHOSE WALKIE-TALKIE IS PERMANENTLY LOCKED ON "SEND".
HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU, BUT THIS "GRAD CITY" ISN'T THE PLACE FOR VPW WORSHIP EITHER, AND YOUR CONTINUOUS SERMONIZING IS IRRITATING FAR MORE PEOPLE THAN IT IS POSSIBLY "REACHING".
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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mj412
was that the red thread in the bible ???
I always wondered what that was and by god there it is.
oh happy day oh happy day
lol
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Zixar
I thought it looked more PFAL-Orange. Figured it might make a little more impact if it was his favorite color...
Hopelessly optimistic, I know.
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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alfakat
nice, Zix...but you and I both know that we are ....in in the wind...it was pretty, though
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Goey
Mike,
My analogy was not about root causes. We could say that the axe caused the wound, but was it really the axe or the person wielding the axe? Or does it go even deeper. I supose it depends upon one's prospective. But in any case, without the axe there would be no wound.
Get this straight Mike. Dr. Victor Paul Weirwille used his position of authority as a supposed man of God as a vehicle to feed his lust for sex and power. He betrayed and abused those who looked to him for spiritual help and guidance. He did it repeatedly and without repentance. He was a serial abuser and he led other down the same path. Oh, and yes, he happened to write a few books with some pretty good Bible stuff in them as well.
But telling those that he betrayed and abused to get healed by mastering those books is absurd and laughable, even if the keys to being healed were in them. The reasons should be rather obvious.
Why would a rape victim want to rely upon books written by the rapist in order get healed? Suggesting such is rubbing salt into the wounds. It is naive and unthinking and it slaps the victims in the face. Besides, if a spiritual solution is being sought, there are other books and sources with the same and even better information - books that were not written by the rapist, but rather by folks with integrity and true compassion that did not go around betraying and abusing their followers while trying to fulfill their own lusts.
Mike, If you cannot get this then you are as dumb as a box of rocks or you just don't give a damn about anyone or anything but yourself and your own ideas.
Goey
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Pirate1974
If Mike does one of his "mastering PFAL" posts and there's nobody around to read it, is it still irritating?
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Mike
Good question Priate.
I've wondered a related question too.
If I do my "mastering PFAL" posts ON ANOTHER WEBSITE, is it still irritating?
IN other words, would a person who sees it their mission from God to stop me here at GS, feel towards me that "this internet aint big enough for the both of us" ?
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Steve!
Pirate - yes.
Mike - are you that egotistical as to think that you have followers? Are you so self-important that you think anyone is going to search the internet looking for your rubbish, and try to stop you from spewing it? Get over yourself, man. Nobody is that interested.
The consensus seems to be that as long as you keep posting this guff here, you will receive back grief.
And furthermore, anytime you post and your attitude is NOT "I am an expert on everything and LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU", posters respond much more favorably.
As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome here, but your viewpoints about docvic(praise be his name) and piffle and mirrors are about as welcome as LCM would be.
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Mike
Steve!,
"Mike - are you that egotistical as to think that you have followers?"
No. I was just wondering.
You relieved my worries!
Thanks!!!
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Mike
Hey! I just want to clean up a few loose ends I am aware of, before posting on the topic again. There may be some I?m not aware of, so hit me with them now, ok? I want to move on with more high surety data from the record.
***One loose end is this. I don?t want to irritate anyone. Goey, I think people who have had difficult times with VPW in the past should avoid my threads. I don?t expect them to follow my suggestions in mastering PFAL. I think healing should come first for them. If I said something on another?s thread that?s truly offending to those dealing with sexual damage, then I will edit it out and admit it wasn?t best said in that place and/or in that way. I do make mistakes and I like correcting them. Abigail did this and we had a wonderful e-mail discussion about it. I admire her for it greatly, and told her. I?d like to imitate it where appropriate. I?m willing to strike something from the public record at their request, for these threads I visit. On MY thread topics I want to steer AWAY from issues sexual. I think it?s an emotional distraction to the topic I have to bring to the table. It?s wise for people who hurt in these areas (or who hurt in these areas WITH someone close to them) to avoid my threads if they feel on the less energetic side in the area of having total control of their emotions. If it?s not the best day or hour for them to steer AWAY from issues sexual, along with me, then I?d advise it?s better to wait until a more energetic day comes along. I HAVE advised a few of my old grad friends, who?ve never seen Grease Spot, to make sure they?re well rested before reading any of the forums here. I try to do that myself too.
***Another loose end is this, and I shouldn?t have to say this, so maybe I should SHOUT it, but all seriousness aside, I don?t think it?s fair to use red fonts. The false air of authority they carry when used on this board has our Western culture?s signature of authority, as used in Red Letter Editions of the Bible. Zixar, you almost convinced me I was wrong with my entire thesis when I hit your last post, and I almost threw in the towel! If it hadn?t been for the crash prone operating system I?m stuck with, blue screening me just in the Nick of time, I?d have been in Danger of loosing my faith. From now on, until this matter of the blasphemous misuse of over-convincing red fonts is settled, I?m draping my monitor with a red filtering blue cellophane shield.
***For the humor impaired, I am now placing my tongue back in it?s normal position, from it?s ?in cheek? position.
***Still no one has wanted to apply Pawtucket?s Principle to the ?Why Believe the Bible? question with me on these threads? I guarantee the end of those discussions for me would be saying I believe in the Bible, and that it?s the revealed Word of God. Those of you who DO believe in the Bible, I hope that at least you?re thinking about it. It?s healthy, because when bigger tests of your faith come along (bigger than me, MUCH bigger than me) you?ll be MUCH better prepared for them. And double that for OLGs. As a student of science and the history of science I have seen other people say things similar to Pawtucket?s Principle. That?s why I got so excited when he first said it. Very similar things were said by Einstein about the way he discovered relativity AND said by Einstein when explaining his theory to early critics who couldn?t buy it because it was so VERY extremely against the most near and dear things in the tradition of modern science, then already a few hundred years old.
***Speaking of science... Dr Diazbro, you addressed my only visiting post on another thread, and for the simplicity of thread minimization I?d like to answer you briefly here. When I said the ?genome expresses itself,? I lumped into that one word ?expresses? all the notion of nature and nurture, including all learning. I was being purposely brief and not over technical. It wasn?t intended to be a scientific statement. I was emphasizing the NATURAL/FACTUAL side of the equation, even though that was not the thread topic where I was visiting. It?s been on my mind, you see. My use of ?genome? was a figure of speech where I epitomized the natural/factual approach by using scientific sounding words. Science is the epitome of the 5-senses approach to truths. It works well with trivial truths, but lousy with the big Truths in the SPIRITUAL/TRUE category ......When I used the phrase ?bell curve? it may have hit some Politically Correct buttons I didn?t intend at all. Ten or fifteen years ago a book with that title cause a big stir. I never read it, but I read a lot ABOUT the stir it caused on academic campuses around the world. My exposure to the phrase ?bell curve? goes back many years before that controversial book was published, back to simple statistics mathematics. I stopped tracking how the phrase ?bell curve? is reacted to by the university crowd in recent years. For at least three years back in the 90?s the phrase ?bell curve? was a PC taboo. Campus protocol around those far removed from statistics classes required a painful facial expression if it had to be enunciated. My use of the phrase was it?s usage twenty years prior to that 90?s trend............. If you want to discuss this more, maybe e-mail would be best because it?s far from topic. Or maybe we could use the private topic option. I haven?t learned that yet.
***So, that?s what I wanted to say before resuming the thread topic. The sun is almost out here, so I?m off to work for a while. Any loose ends are welcome. I tried to answer most posts, but I?m sure some slipped by me.
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dizzydog
Mike,
I am new to this thread and I doubt I will post more than this one letter.
It pains me to see the strife between all who have posted here. Indeed there are 9 pages of it. Thank God I did not waste my whole evening reading through every post.
I think the one question I have about all of this is why is PFAL the subject of the thread? There are many of us who have done what you suggested and studied the PFAL materials after we left TWI. I have learned much since then. And learned primarily who I am in Christ.
My identity is intact because of what I have learned about Jesus Christ in the Word and specifically the epistles. God makes it pretty clear and easy to understand. I read what you write and wonder if my 11 year old could learn anything from your posts about who he is in Christ and I have to say he would be lost in the first post. Even a child need not err therein.
Your assertion that there is some group (OLG) who this thread is directed is a bit silly when you consider that God provided his son for the church, the whole church. There are not special groups within the body of Christ. One body, one head.
Even if VPW was the man of God that you profess he was, why is there a small group within the larger body of Christ who are being blessed with a special level of understanding from God's Word (PFAL grads)? The Colossians had a similar problem with a group called the gnostics who felt that they had a special connection to God because of their advanced knowledge and the secret things they shared with a select few. Paul makes it very clear that the one thing they needed was what they already had, Christ. Even a child need not err therin. God does not want his grace revealed in a cloud of of facts, figures and points.
At this point I would not even consider arguing what is in PFAL, I have seen things in God's Word that make some of what is in PFAL inaccurate. VPW himself used to say that when we teach one thing and find out later that we were wrong we correct the error, publicly.
How long will it take us to get to the point where we can do this with the PFAL materials? There are many people who have quietly continued studying God's Word year after year and the one thing I can say is that God WANTS his grace known. It does not need to be revealed in a manner that takes years and years to begin to understand some of its depth. It can be understood and declared very quickly. This is death to life, how much deeper can you get?
All of your posts about dichotomy and details have not proved in any greater way about God's Grace. You assert that the answers to the hurts that people are experiencing are within the PFAL materials. Assuming you are right why would we declare the PFAL materials rather than God's Word itself? Is not the point of PFAL to give the participants an opportunity to understand and have a relationship with God's Word? Is it not possible that there are people who have done this very thing? If I now have a relationship with God's Word should I take a step backwards to PFAL?
And for those who have had their mouths soured by their experiences isn't God big enough to work with them and continue comforting their hearts and revealing his Word to them? Or is that not available anymore since the revelation in PFAL has now been revealed? Is the PFAL materials now the only way for this group to attain spiritual understanding? Kinda sounds like another gospel to me...
Anyway thats my 2 cents worth...
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Mike
Dizzydog,
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I can understand your dismay. This situation has a rich set of details to be aware of, and jumping in at the end of this thread does give you a limited perspective of exactly what I?m talking about.
It may sound like another gospel, but on closer inspection, it lines up with it.
If anything other than Paul?s gospel is ?another? gospel, then I, II, And III John might be suspect. Ditto for Revelation, and Peter?s epistles.
PFAL is in the same line as the Pauline epistles, just like Peter?s and John?s writings are are.
God was allowed back then to address a few epistles to other than the usual audiences of ?Jew, Gentile and Church of God? with the Timothy, Titus, and Philemon letters. Others can read and learn from them too. It may be argued that sections of John?s Book of Revelation is addressed to certain groups.
God is allowed to address some words primarily to one group if He wants to. He did. Others can read and learn if they are interested, but that?s a big if. There is a specific job to be done, and the PFAL writings are for those who want to do it.
That job is the WOW program updated, improved, supercharged. The spiritual understanding of Word Over the World is called for here.
The 5-senses meaning of WOW is God?s Word spreading across the surface of the planet earth.
The spiritual meaning of WOW is our understanding rising from the earthly sense knowledge Bible understanding to the HIGHER spiritual understanding of God?s Word.
Much more still needs to be posted before this subject will be totally understandable. Opening up the PFAL books again would be another must, if you want to see the integrity of what I?m presenting here. Dr?s dying last words to us, his final instructions to us, were to do this very thing, come back to PFAL and master it. The first time through we got a lot, but even more was placed in there by God to be utilized now. I find the second go around with PFAL much better than the first.
I appreciate the tone of your post, and would like be able to discuss these things further someday.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 19, 2003 at 2:51.]
[This message was edited by Mike on April 19, 2003 at 2:53.]
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dizzydog
Mike,
Dismay? No.
You talk a lot about the scriptures and speak very generally about what you believe certain things say in the gospels but rarely state specifically what the scriptures say.
As far as my not seeing enough of the posts to understand what you have said; I read enough. You always make assertions without much basis scripturally, always with the promise that you will explain it later.
God's Word is big enough to answer any questions we might have. You defend the PFAL materials as if they were the Word of God and yet you spend more time declaring the materials then you do God's Word.
As I said I do not want to make this a long series of points counterpoints as I see how you try to get people wrapped up in your endless dialogue.
Your words are not easily entreated. The are ambiguous and difficult to follow. This alone makes me question your assertions. God's Word is easily entreated. Think about it, if you really want to help people give them something to stand on, not scratch their head over.
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Mike
Dizzydog,
The ?something to stand on? that I offer here is what Dr told us to master: the PFAL writings.
This is a much more substantial foundation from which to see God's Word than the KJV or any other 5-senses scholarly attempts to reconstruct the Bible in our language and culture and time. God has provided us this BETTER something to stand on, and so I talk about it. It got lost so it needs to be talked about, or you need it to be talked up around you. I think this is not immediately easily entreated for you because you are rusty on the material.
Yes, here at GS I talk ABOUT this Word which God taught Dr and Dr taught us, but sometimes here at GS I do bring in the actual words of God's Word. You have not seen all my posts, but there are many passages I?ve posted of the not-so-God-breathed KJV and many passages from the very-much-so-God-breathed PFAL writings. ...AND I am doing this more and more as it is appropriate.
In my own private life I read God?s Word directly a lot, think it a lot, and apply it a lot. It?s fun.
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WordWolf
Dizzy, let me brief you on a little that you
missed.
Mike has rather proudly proclaimed, on several
occasions, that vpw's writings-pfal as a class
and the collateral books-are of superior value
than that Bible you respect (as did vpw, in
that SAME class.) He's called the modern
Bible versions "remnants", as if they were
left-over pieces of something useful left
behind. He's said it's of dubious benefits to
study at all, and thinks believing it is silly,
simply a kow-towing to religious traditions and
blind acceptance of leadership's statements.
On the other hand, Mike has PROUDLY proclaimed
that pfal and all vpw-written pfal materials are
of far surpassing benefit. He's said they are
God's communication to us, just as Romans, say,
was God's communication to Christians in Rome.
He views them as superior in every way to that
Bible-thing you value. He bases this claim
on the "1942 promise" and the snowstorm, and
vpw's claims that vpw heard from God, saw a
miracle vision of snow, and received all his
important writings at the direct communication
of God Almighty.
In the event vpw's work and the Bible in your
hands contradict, your Bible is in error and
vpw is right.
That's because vpw was superior in both the
mental and physical categories.
-----------
Mind you, that's not me, that's from various
posts Mike himself has made. (I'm not counting
anyone else's claims to Mike's account.)
----------------------------
There's a lot more, but that's the basics.
This post directly above mine illustrates the
contrast.
"..the not-so-God=breathed KJV..the very-much-so-
God-breathed PFAL writings..."
--------------------------------
Let me know if you need to be directed to specific
threads where he's made claims.
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Mike
Word Wolf and dizzydog,
Let me assure you that the WordWolf analysis above is a collection of many facts alternating with fudge-facts. I?m not going to bother with the chore of trying to identify which alternating rungs on your ladder are correct and which incorrect. Whenever other posters represent me they do a lousy job, and you?re no exception WW. I?d rather speak for myself, thank you.
WW, you never admitted up front that you didn?t want to have a better definition of "master" to help you master the material, but it was pretty obvious to me that's how you felt. So, was my guess of your motive correct? If not, how are you doing with the not-so-recursive definition? Are you over your trauma over recursive definitions?
We might leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide which of your assertions were accurate as to how I?ve presented myself in the record here. As usual, I?m open to public discussion on the items of this little exercise, as well.
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Oakspear
Looks to me like Wordwolf's description is pretty accurate. Not the words Mike would pick, but accurate nonetheless.
Mike does speak for himself, voluminously!
The only difference with Wordwolf's description is that he presents Mike's position as a bad thing, while Mike would present the same position positively.
Oakspear
"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"
Henri Poincare
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Mike
Oakspear,
I disagree, voluminously! No... Wait a minute...
I disagree, strenuously! ...that WW's description of my beliefs is accurate.
There are causal connections and ?therefore?s that he got wrong or skewed. I don?t stand behind what he says. PERIOD. He has some facts correct, but in toto it?s wrong. It?s a checkerboard of fact and falsehood.
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