guess that makes me...the eggman--koo koo-ka-choo...
.
.
.
Mike -- It.s a damn good thing veepster never started pontificating on the defraction of light rays in the upper atmosphere and the perception of same by the human eye..... --> --> :P-->
Mike: "God was behind the relative ratios of what Dr published..."
how do you know? (did your voices tell you?)
and that "TVT" thing... is it TVT or TCT?
I happen to think that God was definitely behind what Zixar published for me... (which you and our fellow GSers can use for your benefit as well)... I don't know which God, but does that really matter?
quote:I think Dr did the right amount of footnoting his texts,
and I think he did the right amount of citing (both verbally and in print) his teachers,
and he did the right amount of mentioning he was not the originator,
and he did the right amount of informing us that he was a collector who ?put it together.?
and that a COMMON saying of his was that he just ?put it together?
and that a COMMON saying of his was ?I didn?t write the book.?
He also said he was not a scholar,
and that his ministry was by grace,
and that he didn?t deserve it.
...
so this is your "justification", Mike, for any and all transgressions, eh???? Mike, Mike, Mike... sin is sin, why not grow up, be a man and just ....ADMIT it?? WHAT is your freaking HANG-UP?????
Gosh! That's an old memory you conjured up. I remember Timothy Leary telling readers to be leary of anyone who suggests looking at the sun might be a good way to see God.
I'm talking about how he tolerated sin in David, Baalam, and others who were entrusted with His Word in spite of their flesh.
It was much easier for God to work with David after the incident with Uriah, than it was for the people who were related to Uriah.
It must have been exceedingly difficult for members of Uriah's family to forgive David for murder. What is interestinng is that there are a few who did, and it's documented in there.
So, a few learned this godly ability to overlook. It takes work, and it has to be done only when it's God's will.
God "tolerates" sin in the sense that he is slow to anger and abounding mercy.
But make no mistake he abhors it, despises and detests it.
The children of Israel's entering the promised land was judgement on the Canaanites there, who after 400 years of sin, receieved their punishment.
God says the sins of the father are found into the third and fourth generation.
As others have stated, Jesus came to our planet to die for us as a perfect sacrifice. Not because he tolerates it, but because He loves us so much he wanted to make a way out that would last.
This is why God is being merciful with you, because he is rich in mercy. He wants you to come back to Him and leave this doctrine of devils you are so consumed by.
Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit ALL want you to repent and come home.a
God is love and light and good. How can He hate, anger, etc.
Mike, God left VPW to his own devices. That is why VPW has such a tarnished reputation. That is why he has few who hold him in any regard. His legacy is that he was a lying, cheating, stealing, sexual predator. That is perfect justice.
God didn't do anything but let truth reveal itself.
[This message was edited by karmicdebt on July 17, 2003 at 18:29.]
Mike likes using the word "crybabies" to attack, personally, the people who point out Wierwille's blatant plagiarism.
Nice. It's called "ad-hominem attacks." You have no reasonable substantive argument, so you try to belittle us. I really applaud your effort. It's transparent and sad, but hey, what should we expect from someone who declared his closed-mindedness from the beginning?
Thanks for sharing. I disagree with the heart behind your post and will continue to call it like I see it. If you're going to be critical of my observations, be my guest. But I didn't see you criticizing Mike for calling people unfit researchers or crybabies. I suppose your defense instinct is somewhat selective on this point.
So let's see, either VPW sinned when he took the words of others to put into his books (without their consent and without acknowledgement), and we should overlook the sin because he was such a great MOG; or he refrained from footnoting on purpose, to spare us from looking up the references and getting off track in our thinking, and we should thank him for sparing us such pain. What a guy, that VP!
OR he wanted to get those books into print, and didn't think a bunch of midwestern hayseeds and babyboomer kids would know that he plagiarized. Later on, when he was more concerned about being recognized in the academic community, (and after he already got into trouble with plagiarizing the lyrics in the song book), he footnoted extensively, and somehow we didn't all get "off the Word" by looking up any of the texts he cited (if we looked them up at all).
Sheesh, Mike, we weren't all a bunch of morons, even though we had been deceived. Most of us could certainly read a book and tell what was Way doctrine, and what wasn't. Some of us could even choose to believe outside the TVT, even when we were still in. Your argument about why Wierwille refrained from foonotes just doesn't wash.
The rules and customs and bumper-sticker mantras of TWI never really jived with what I was getting out of it anyway.
And it was like that for a lot of innies I knew.
---
Mike,
I got some sleep and feel better now.
New questions for ya:
Why don't ya stop mastering the tools and actually start using them?
Honestly
This is why I brought up the Book of Revelation in the first place. Seems to me that if PFAL is the most powerful and relevant God-breathed Bible-aid, then you should be able to USE it to understand any part of the bible. Those hard-to-understand parts.
I can't find a single scripture that backs how "it will only be understood by those in the time the events are coming to pass." Sounds like a big cop-out. Like "just take it on faith, brother."
The keys to the Word's interpretation? Remember?
So put yer money where your mouth is.
Stop bragging about PFAL and demonstrate.
Show us how to use it to unlock the secrets of those most puzzling sections of scripture that VPW never refers to. Are they still valid for godly wisdom?
And if not in the book of Revelation. How bout the book of Job? The flood? Daniel's visions? The wierd stuff in Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekial? All those poetic little books before the Gospels.
So, to whom are the different parts of the book of Revelation addressed, for example?
How are the dominant figures of speech used in it?
Administrations covered?
Orientalisms?
Scripture interpreting itself?
Previous usage?
Scripture build-up?
I mean, are the PFAL principles valid for learning or not?
Don't make me dig out my groovy biblical principles bookmarks. ;)-->
---
GingerT,
I think the world of ya, and I think I know where yer coming from.
This whole Mike vs all ex-TWI thing is somewhat compelling.
And somewhat personal.
There are a lot of blanket accusations behind his sermons, and they're levelled at everyone here, more or less.
For me, it's hard not to get grumpy.
But I do think the nastier responses wash off quite easy, in most cases.
Re: The heart behind your post - you have a good point. I disagree with your post. I have to stop listening to what the voices tell me is the heart behind your post. How would they know? Bad voices. Bad, bad voices.
Mike,
You don't need to retract the crybaby statement. It's your M.O. Please, keep it up. It's the only weapon in your arsenal.
Def there have been plenty of posters on this thread that aren`t guys (me) shaz.. mj... ex
Ginger ..... your analysis of who we are and why we post on this thread is innacurate ... It is a broad brush you use to paint gs ers and to psycho analyse our motives....
Participation here is kind of like cleaning out the cobwebs (for me).... it forces one to do some original thinking....
Of course how much effect does this forum have on life and living. I mean when I leave the computer my kids are there waiting for me to take them to the park or swimming pool and suddenly I barely remember what GS is anymore. Let alone some guy in California who has chosen to "master" the books on his shelf. It really doesn't bother me, anymore.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
alfakat
guess that makes me...the eggman--koo koo-ka-choo...
.
.
.
Mike -- It.s a damn good thing veepster never started pontificating on the defraction of light rays in the upper atmosphere and the perception of same by the human eye.....
--> 
--> 
:P-->
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Tom Strange
Mike: "God was behind the relative ratios of what Dr published..."
how do you know? (did your voices tell you?)
and that "TVT" thing... is it TVT or TCT?
I happen to think that God was definitely behind what Zixar published for me... (which you and our fellow GSers can use for your benefit as well)... I don't know which God, but does that really matter?
... big hitter, the lama...
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alfakat
...
...so this is your "justification", Mike, for any and all transgressions, eh???? Mike, Mike, Mike... sin is sin, why not grow up, be a man and just ....ADMIT it?? WHAT is your freaking HANG-UP?????
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Mike
alfakat,
Gosh! That's an old memory you conjured up. I remember Timothy Leary telling readers to be leary of anyone who suggests looking at the sun might be a good way to see God.
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alfakat
Nice try, Mr. Science--NOT talking about LOOKING at the sun...
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Mike
alfakat,
It's easy to see in the Bible that God is able to tolerate sin better than man.
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alfakat
chapter and verse, bud... God sends His only Son to die for all sin for all time cuz He tolerates it....hmmmm, NOPE!!
He made provision to deal with sin, both tree and fruit--seems Annanias and Saphira needed your rationalization service, Mike....
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Mike
alfakat,
I'm talking about how he tolerated sin in David, Baalam, and others who were entrusted with His Word in spite of their flesh.
It was much easier for God to work with David after the incident with Uriah, than it was for the people who were related to Uriah.
It must have been exceedingly difficult for members of Uriah's family to forgive David for murder. What is interestinng is that there are a few who did, and it's documented in there.
So, a few learned this godly ability to overlook. It takes work, and it has to be done only when it's God's will.
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Tom Strange
boys!
boys!
sit down, have a snow cone...
... big hitter, the lama...
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alfakat
Mike--yes, God "deals" with David's sin...and what were the consequences, Mike??? wanna chapter and verse me THAT ONE????????
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def59
God "tolerates" sin in the sense that he is slow to anger and abounding mercy.
But make no mistake he abhors it, despises and detests it.
The children of Israel's entering the promised land was judgement on the Canaanites there, who after 400 years of sin, receieved their punishment.
God says the sins of the father are found into the third and fourth generation.
As others have stated, Jesus came to our planet to die for us as a perfect sacrifice. Not because he tolerates it, but because He loves us so much he wanted to make a way out that would last.
This is why God is being merciful with you, because he is rich in mercy. He wants you to come back to Him and leave this doctrine of devils you are so consumed by.
Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit ALL want you to repent and come home.a
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karmicdebt
God is love and light and good. How can He hate, anger, etc.
Mike, God left VPW to his own devices. That is why VPW has such a tarnished reputation. That is why he has few who hold him in any regard. His legacy is that he was a lying, cheating, stealing, sexual predator. That is perfect justice.
God didn't do anything but let truth reveal itself.
[This message was edited by karmicdebt on July 17, 2003 at 18:29.]
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Raf
Mike likes using the word "crybabies" to attack, personally, the people who point out Wierwille's blatant plagiarism.
Nice. It's called "ad-hominem attacks." You have no reasonable substantive argument, so you try to belittle us. I really applaud your effort. It's transparent and sad, but hey, what should we expect from someone who declared his closed-mindedness from the beginning?
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Raf
Ginger,
Thanks for sharing. I disagree with the heart behind your post and will continue to call it like I see it. If you're going to be critical of my observations, be my guest. But I didn't see you criticizing Mike for calling people unfit researchers or crybabies. I suppose your defense instinct is somewhat selective on this point.
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Mike
Oh Rafael,
I'll take it back. Your're not a crybaby.
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Brady
byebye *poof! gone!*
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shazdancer
So let's see, either VPW sinned when he took the words of others to put into his books (without their consent and without acknowledgement), and we should overlook the sin because he was such a great MOG; or he refrained from footnoting on purpose, to spare us from looking up the references and getting off track in our thinking, and we should thank him for sparing us such pain. What a guy, that VP!
OR he wanted to get those books into print, and didn't think a bunch of midwestern hayseeds and babyboomer kids would know that he plagiarized. Later on, when he was more concerned about being recognized in the academic community, (and after he already got into trouble with plagiarizing the lyrics in the song book), he footnoted extensively, and somehow we didn't all get "off the Word" by looking up any of the texts he cited (if we looked them up at all).
Sheesh, Mike, we weren't all a bunch of morons, even though we had been deceived. Most of us could certainly read a book and tell what was Way doctrine, and what wasn't. Some of us could even choose to believe outside the TVT, even when we were still in. Your argument about why Wierwille refrained from foonotes just doesn't wash.
Shaz
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alfakat
maybe it's cuz you come off so "above it all", gt...maybe it don't matta for u, that's cool.
maybe others just don't see it YOUR way, either--maybe THAT was raf's "heart" objection--neh???
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sirguessalot
Good point Shaz,
I recall that I despised TVT, but dug the books.
The rules and customs and bumper-sticker mantras of TWI never really jived with what I was getting out of it anyway.
And it was like that for a lot of innies I knew.
---
Mike,
I got some sleep and feel better now.
New questions for ya:
Why don't ya stop mastering the tools and actually start using them?
Honestly
This is why I brought up the Book of Revelation in the first place. Seems to me that if PFAL is the most powerful and relevant God-breathed Bible-aid, then you should be able to USE it to understand any part of the bible. Those hard-to-understand parts.
I can't find a single scripture that backs how "it will only be understood by those in the time the events are coming to pass." Sounds like a big cop-out. Like "just take it on faith, brother."
The keys to the Word's interpretation? Remember?
So put yer money where your mouth is.
Stop bragging about PFAL and demonstrate.
Show us how to use it to unlock the secrets of those most puzzling sections of scripture that VPW never refers to. Are they still valid for godly wisdom?
And if not in the book of Revelation. How bout the book of Job? The flood? Daniel's visions? The wierd stuff in Isaiah and Jeremiah and Ezekial? All those poetic little books before the Gospels.
So, to whom are the different parts of the book of Revelation addressed, for example?
How are the dominant figures of speech used in it?
Administrations covered?
Orientalisms?
Scripture interpreting itself?
Previous usage?
Scripture build-up?
I mean, are the PFAL principles valid for learning or not?
Don't make me dig out my groovy biblical principles bookmarks.
;)-->
---
GingerT,
I think the world of ya, and I think I know where yer coming from.
This whole Mike vs all ex-TWI thing is somewhat compelling.
And somewhat personal.
There are a lot of blanket accusations behind his sermons, and they're levelled at everyone here, more or less.
For me, it's hard not to get grumpy.
But I do think the nastier responses wash off quite easy, in most cases.
Todd
;)-->
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sirguessalot
Thanks Ginger
Have a good night
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def59
I think for the most part this thread gives men a place to rip into something without making it personal or physical.
I don't mike is having the effect he thinks, rather I think most of the posters ( I am guessing) are men who like the banter and discussion here.
We are mostly trying to top another with a stinging comeback or tough question for Mike.
Mike, in essence, is irrelevant. He is the bogeyman, the ghost, that we are contesting.
For all his rantings, writings and ravings, he is really not important to our postings.'
We could insert any name here and be just as happy.
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Raf
Ginger,
Re: The heart behind your post - you have a good point. I disagree with your post. I have to stop listening to what the voices tell me is the heart behind your post. How would they know? Bad voices. Bad, bad voices.
Mike,
You don't need to retract the crybaby statement. It's your M.O. Please, keep it up. It's the only weapon in your arsenal.
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rascal
Def there have been plenty of posters on this thread that aren`t guys (me) shaz.. mj... ex
Ginger ..... your analysis of who we are and why we post on this thread is innacurate ... It is a broad brush you use to paint gs ers and to psycho analyse our motives....
Participation here is kind of like cleaning out the cobwebs (for me).... it forces one to do some original thinking....
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dizzydog
I think we are all bozo's on this bus.
Of course how much effect does this forum have on life and living. I mean when I leave the computer my kids are there waiting for me to take them to the park or swimming pool and suddenly I barely remember what GS is anymore. Let alone some guy in California who has chosen to "master" the books on his shelf. It really doesn't bother me, anymore.
For some reason it did when I first came here.
How well do we really know each other anyway?
Oh, and before I forget...
HI GINGER.
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