I just want to than y?all fo refrainin from postin anythin of substance seein that I?m kinda tarrrrred and all...it?s quarter to one am...and I?m pooped....dizzydogs spinnin in my head and all...term papers due and all...SamuelAdamsinsteadofLeinenkugel OH Yes! Scarlett! Tomorrow?s Another Day!
Mike: "How do you think Dr would feel if he found out that his final instructions were lost?"
Answer: He would not give a damn, knowing that God is greater than any "final instructions" he could possibly have given - and that God would not allow the spiritual well being of all of humanity rest upon an obscure teaching of one man. He would be bewildered as to how a few folks could have taken his teachings and exalted them to the Word of God.
Mike: "How do you think he?d feel to learn that in the year 1998, tens of thousands (I?ve polled hundreds) of grads, Corps, and clergy would not be even aware of the existence of these final instructions, let alone ever inclined to obey them?"
Answer: He would be relieved that no more than a just a few people misconstrued and mistrpresented his final teaching to mean what you say it means.
Mike: "When Dr?s up, I?ll be there with a clean conscience to greet him."
Answer: And then old Doc Vic himself can explain to you how far off track you got in regards to his so-called "final instructions". But then you would probably argue with VPW himself him about what he really meant in his "final instructions."
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Mike - If a reader didn't know that you were being deliberately evasive, he could only conclude that you are very stupid. But we know that is not the case. I'll repeat the question. It's not going to go away.
Pro gratia argumentum, I am working this paragraph from page 83 of PFAL when two spiritual voices begin whispering different things to me.
Spiritual voice "A" whispers, "Wierwille meant exactly what Wierwille wrote."
Spiritual voice "B" whispers, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote. The spiritual meaning of this passage is that SOME of what Wierwille writes will NECESSARILY be God-breathed."
According to your own stated criteria, Mike, is whispering spiritual voice "B" God's voice or the adversary's?
Let me say one thing here. I am not going to respond to you as many others do, I am not trying to hurt you. I see how so many take pleasure in the fight with you. I do not. I have stepped out of this forum on a number of occasions intentionally so that I do not get out of line.
My goal is to see the body of Christ dwell together in unity and be likeminded. Saying that, I know this will not happen until the return of Christ.
You wrote:
?On a practical basis, NEARLY all the KJV verses you believe, I believe, and the way you believe them, but for different reasons.
How many people can you say that of? That they have NEARLY all of the same Bible verse beliefs as you??
I am not sure there is anyone that fits into this category, not even my wife. And that is a good thing. There are still too many things I am wrong about, ignorant about. Of course, what I believe is not the standard. THANK GOD! As I said these things will not matter once Christ returns.
Having said all of that I appreciate the heart behind your comment. I am sure you see this as a good thing.
With regard to my posts and where they came from.
Actually you have responded to two articles by VPW, although you may not have realized it.
My first post was taken from a Way Magazine article in 1962 (September I think). With the exception of the first two lines everything else is VPW. I changed nothing and wrote the article in its entirety. If you reread it starting with the paragraph where the quote from Revelation is you will have the complete article.
I will give you some credit here. Initially you read the article and went on the attack toward me. I almost let you have it at that point but I backed off and questioned your responses to give you the chance to give the article an honest review. Your responses then indicated thoughtfulness to the material and it has kept me from being ugly toward you. Perhaps you realized what I had done. I will say the few objections you had were not toward me but rather VPW. He is the one who called the Bible a book. I have more articles to show his attitude toward the Book of the Bible. Notice I did not say KJV, I also did not say an abstraction.
In a subtle way I think maybe you and I agree more than we are saying. I will not go to the extents you do in your characterizations of our current translations because I see that as disrespectful to God who has had to keep these things intact for the last two thousand years. When VPW shows us that the order of the seven church epistles is divine is nothing short of a miracle in my mind. That God could keep the Scriptures that intact for all these years is remarkable, errors in translation aside. I truly do believe that is what VPW meant when he said that we could interpret 85-90% of the Word of God in the verse. It is there to be interpreted, with the right keys. As he said the seven Church epistles are the complete curriculum for the believer.
Which brings us to your question. The last article was from a Way Magazine ? Our Times article in November of 1978. If you doubt my veracity about this I will scan the articles so that you can see I at least had something to copy from. You likely will not be able to read them that way (they are already Xerox?s of the originals). You will have to trust I did an adequate job of transcribing.
I have more if you want.
I am going to offer one thing to you here. I do not argue Dr?s last instructions; I argue your interpretation of why he gave those instructions. He wanted people to get their heads back into the Word. PFAL provided the keys for understanding the seven church epistles (and the rest of the Bible). Not only understanding but also rightly-dividing it. As you have pointed out so clearly, it has not been rightly-divided since the first century church.
He wanted people to pick up the keys to unlock the door to the Scriptures again. We can argue about whether he was right, I am sure eternity will tell. I think we are closer now than ever, but not there yet. Perhaps not until Christ returns.
Jesus' words pre-Pentecost were good, but his post-Pentecost words to Paul, to be echoed in his epistles, are better.
If you look at Acts, there are three post-Pentecost appearances of Christ. Some Bibles even have his words in red. These places are the three places in Acts where the Road to Damascus incident are brought up. The first is in the chronological narrative, and the next two are flashbacks by Paul to the same incident. Add up all three incidents to get a composite of Jesus? words, and they read a lot like Colossians, Chapter One, the ?Christ in you? chapter.
If you follow you reasoning out, the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not identical to Jesus? words, unless you believe they were inspired by God. Ditto for Paul. What Paul wrote was just as authoritative as Jesus speaking to you personally, because Paul got his written words from the same source Jesus got his from: God.
You wrote: ?Let me say one thing here. I am not going to respond to you as many others do, I am not trying to hurt you. I see how so many take pleasure in the fight with you. I do not. I have stepped out of this forum on a number of occasions intentionally so that I do not get out of line.?
I admire that. The mob mentality is easy to get caught up in. It?s happened to me. I do get the picture that you are not trying to hurt.
*****
You wrote: ?My goal is to see the body of Christ dwell together in unity and be likeminded. Saying that, I know this will not happen until the return of Christ.?
My goal too! I do believe we are at the time when it is finally available to be like minded in the perfectly renewed mind.
Here is what Dr said in the 1979 Advanced Class (segment 6) with my ALL-CAPS:
?And class, that can only be when we all speak the same thing on God's Word. No one will ever qualify for first Corinthians one, ten, unless they get their heads and their hearts into the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word. How will we ever speak the same thing unless we STUDY THE SAME THING, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself. If you and I do not rightly divide the Word of God, there's gonna be division among us.?
He told us what ?same thing? we needed to study, to master, and it?s not the KJV, or the Greek, or any of the traditional items that pass for or are closely associated with the Bible or God?s Word.
The ?same thing? we are to study to get like minded is PFAL.
*****
You wrote: ?Actually you have responded to two articles by VPW, although you may not have realized it.?
I thought something was up.
*****
You wrote: ?My first post was taken from a Way Magazine article in 1962 (September I think). With the exception of the first two lines everything else is VPW. I changed nothing and wrote the article in its entirety. If you reread it starting with the paragraph where the quote from Revelation is you will have the complete article.?
That?s pretty early. The conditions were different then. Revelation may change, and I see an evolution of revelation. In 1962 it was right and proper for grads to think 9in terms of really getting to know the KJV ?book.? As the 1942 project progressed, the conditions changed, and the revelation to Dr changed, and his instructions to us changed.
As the collaterals progressed in their development from articles and booklets, what was best for grad development changed. In 1962 there was far less of the PFAL writings to master, hence what WAS available was the main target.
In 1977, GMWD, the last collateral that had chapters assigned as homework for class sessions was released. In 1979 Dr started letting Advanced Class students know that they better take these books seriously in this passage from segment #5:
?I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.?
Then in 1982, he said that the research was done and we needed to run with what we had.
Then at Sound Out'84 he brought up mastering the books again.
Then in 1985 he said point blank to master the PFAL writings.
So in 1962, things were different. From what I?ve seen, Dr himself in later teachings, supercedes a lot of the approach in the 1962 text you posted. I?ve not studied much of Dr?s material before 1968.
******
You wrote: ?I will give you some credit here. Initially you read the article and went on the attack toward me.?
I think this is where I had a hard time paying attention to you, since I had multiple conversations cooking. That was a particularly fast and furious posting session, and I could see I was loosing it in tracking with you. I was somewhat countering past conversations I had with you mixed with the current post.
******
You wrote: ?In a subtle way I think maybe you and I agree more than we are saying.?
This is what I was referring to about our common KJV verse like mindedness.
*****
You wrote: ?I will not go to the extents you do in your characterizations of our current translations because I see that as disrespectful to God who has had to keep these things intact for the last two thousand years.?
Just like that scroll got consumed in Jer.36, things didn?t keep so intact for the last 2000 years. Yes, the text itself is the least tattered in the chain or transmission to us, but there are many weaker links I?ve also mentioned. Changes in languages and cultures, religious bias in the teaching of ancient languages, religious bias in the minds of every translator, and religious bias in the mind of every reader make for the condition Dr described as buried before the 1942 promise.
The Word wasn?t totally buried, but enough of it was for the power to be gone, except in isolated individuals, who were rarely able to teach others.
******
You wrote: ?When VPW shows us that the order of the seven church epistles is divine is nothing short of a miracle in my mind.?
It seems they were assembled together a very early date, and circulated as a unit. Peter refers to ?all? Paul?s epistles in this way.
*****
You wrote: ?It is there to be interpreted, with the right keys. As he said the seven Church epistles are the complete curriculum for the believer.?
The keys must be mastered, though. Partial mastery of the keys means partial access to the curriculum. Trusting the KJV translators, or any other 5-senses helpers, to deliver to us all that we need to access the seven Church epistles is what Dr said we should NOT do. To access the seven Church epistles we must master PFAL. They?re in there.
******
You wrote: ?Which brings us to your question. The last article was from a Way Magazine ? Our Times article in November of 1978. If you doubt my veracity about this I will scan the articles so that you can see I at least had something to copy from. You likely will not be able to read them that way (they are already Xerox?s of the originals). You will have to trust I did an adequate job of transcribing.?
I trust.
The date was what I wanted. I was searching around in the books for it.
******
You wrote: ?I have more if you want.?
Yes. I?m very interested in collecting e-texts of Dr?s stuff. Please e-mail me.
******
You wrote: ?I am going to offer one thing to you here. I do not argue Dr?s last instructions; I argue your interpretation of why he gave those instructions. He wanted people to get their heads back into the Word. PFAL provided the keys for understanding the seven church epistles (and the rest of the Bible). Not only understanding but also rightly-dividing it. As you have pointed out so clearly, it has not been rightly-divided since the first century church.?
Yes. We can?t rightly divide it alone, away from PFAL, any better than the denominations have done it over the centuries. It?s God?s 1942 intervention that put Dr over the top in making this available to us. It?s ONLY by mastering PFAL that we can master God?s Word.
The reason PFAL brings us this, when all other approaches fail, is because PFAL was given by revelation. It is not a man-breathed aid to seeing the scriptures, it?s a God-breathed aid. In mastering the PFAL revelations we not only get an accurate view of the ancient scriptures, but God also has given us a written revelation, addressed to us, so that we can carry out a job special to us.
This special job has to do with the return of Christ. You mentioned Christ?s return several times. I see God?s 1942 intervention as very intimately connected with the Return. There are wonderful things in the PFAL record for the mastering students to find on this.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 16, 2003 at 4:52.]
First, thanks for finally responding, I feel so blessed.:0
All of Jesus' words carry the same weight. When you are The Way, they tend to that. The problem with elevating Paul's letters above any other scripture is that it tends to diminish Jesus' words as mentioned in the Gospels.
I believe that we should take the whole Word of God and not just certain verses "as written to us."
Too often we, who were in TWI, had a tendency to dismiss Jesus and elevate Paul which led us to elevate vpw.
But we should also take a look at James, John and Peter's letters as well. Those verses also tell us what we, in the church, should do and act.
All, of this must be done in light of Jesus, who is the Word made Flesh.
First, thanks for finally responding, I feel so blessed.:0
All of Jesus' words carry the same weight. When you are The Way, they tend to that. The problem with elevating Paul's letters above any other scripture is that it tends to diminish Jesus' words as mentioned in the Gospels.
I believe that we should take the whole Word of God and not just certain verses "as written to us."
Too often we, who were in TWI, had a tendency to dismiss Jesus and elevate Paul which led us to elevate vpw.
But we should also take a look at James, John and Peter's letters as well. Those verses also tell us what we, in the church, should do and act.
All, of this must be done in light of Jesus, who is the Word made Flesh.
"Jesus' words pre-Pentecost were good, but his post-Pentecost words to Paul, to be echoed in his epistles, are better."
I can't agree with you on this one. All Jesus Christ's words carry the same weight in eternity. The "pre-pentecost" words accomplished exactly what they were designed to do. Likewise the "post-pentecost" words also accomplished what they were designed to do. All were needed equally according to God's design. And were said in the order they needed to be said in.
As far as the Pauline epistles. It's because of what Jesus Christ did and said that I am thankful to have those epistles. If someone does something great for me, like deliver me from death unto life for example. And someone else explains what was done I have good reason to be thankful. I am not worshipping the messenger, I simply have more reason to praise the Lord.
As far as Bullinger originally writing these things...
As far as Bullinger originally writing these things... I have LOT?S of arguments here!
How do you know what his sources were? He might have gotten little pieces here and there (like Bob Dylan) and then put them together. If the pieces are small enough, in the past enough, or numerous enough, then people don?t bother to tell the sources. He might have also gotten some big chunks this way. Some of the putting together and some of the chunks might have been by revelation for God, in which case his source was divine, but a source nonetheless.
Another thing to consider is two ?originators? coming up with the same thing at the same time, or similar times, or different places, but from different sources. This phenomenon happens OFTEN in science, when the conditions are ripe. Liebitz and Newton both came up with calculus in near the same decades. Schroedinger?s wave mechanics was identical to Heisenberg?s matrix mechanics is another uncontested spectacular example. There are many other less well known or clear examples regarding many inventions and ideas that seem to be ?ripe? or in the wind for multiple ?original? breakthroughs.
*********
You wrote: ?Likewise the "post-pentecost" words also accomplished what they were designed to do. All were needed equally according to God's design. And were said in the order they needed to be said in.?
Right, and some of Jesus? post-Pentecost statements override his pre-Pentecost. Actually the boundary lines are a bit fuzzy here, and some things changed just a little before Pentecost. The classic example Bullinger uses in ?How to Enjoy the Bible? is the pre-statement of Jesus that his disciples should go only to the lost sheep of Israel, and no Gentiles. Later, when things changed the message was ?include gentiles.?
In these times, Jesus post-Pentecost revelations to Paul are what Peter said we better get right in his dying last words. Peter says it was Paul?s epistles that many were screwing up on.
As for the ?for our learning? aspect of Jesus pre-Pentecost words, there is an absolute TREASURY of beautiful teaching of these items in Jesus Christ Is Not God, Jesus Christ Our Passover, and Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed.
Anyone who diminished Jesus heart that?s displayed in the 4 gospels, did so against what we were taught in the writings. Dr?s repeated ?Christ Formed In You? series of teachings pointed out how we must become that same personality that is depicted in the Jesus of those 4 gospels. Then, as I pointed out on this thread before, the Zacheus chapter in Dr?s last book tells us point blank to climb over or up on anything we need to see Jesus.
Def, you wrote: ?Too often we, who were in TWI, had a tendency to dismiss Jesus and elevate Paul which led us to elevate vpw.?
I agree, and this tendency, identified here as TVT, would have been squelched if we had paid better attention to the teachings listed in the sentences above.
?But we should also take a look at James, John and Peter's letters as well. Those verses also tell us what we, in the church, should do and act. All, of this must be done in light of Jesus, who is the Word made Flesh.?
I agree. Dr taught that Jesus Christ was the grand subject throughout all of the Word, or something like that. Elements of his mind are distributed all through it. John?s first letter gets major treatment in two separate chapters of PFAL, one of which covers every verse. Dr often encouraged reading these things on our own. Some of us did read and work them. I spent years working the agreement between James and Romans. Peter?s epistles were a constant source of study and encouragement.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 16, 2003 at 14:03.]
I think it's patently obvious that VPW got it from Bullinger. I just don't think that, in and of itself, is a big deal. I don't even think it's wrong.
I only think it's wrong if VPW took what Bullinger wrote and passed it off as his own (which he did in the chapter "The Counsel of the Lord" in the Blue Book).
You will lose me by referring to JCiNG, and like books. I don't agree with vpw's conclusions, premises or logic on any of those subjects anymore.
As for Jesus' words on reaching the Gentiles, it wasn't a change, it was fulfillment of OT prophecy that of the promise God made to Abraham.
While it is true that we are no longer the law and we should shun legalism (you know, if we don't do things like you do then it can't be right mentality.)
What we must do is allow God to speak through the Scriptures, faith comes by hearing (gasp 5 senses) and hearing by the word of God.
To teach that the Pauline epistles have pre-eminence over any other scripture is ludicrous.
I love his letters, don't get me wrong. But Luke and John and Matthew and Mark also did a good job. And I want to learn what Jesus had to say while he was on this earth. After all, He meant it!s
Just to keep you all up to date... by using Zixar's method, I'm a full 7 percentage points higher in winning! In just a few days I'll try Goey's method, although it looks to be quite complex and I'm just a simple minded Texan...
I really am amazed, Mike, at the difference it makes... I thought that my old way of thinking about it, approaching it was very logical and "the best" way... but I was open to suggestions, to different opinions, and look what happened! and in such a short time!
I'm still looking forward to your thoughts and theories, Mike, as I endeavor to master Solitaire... thanks again for your help Zixar! Goey, do you have any tips for your methods?
I often wondered why the last teaching of Jesus Christ is neglected in the PFAL books (meaning that VPW refers to very few scriptures from that book). But final instructions to followers are quite important, right?
Then it seems to me, that if PFAL is THE cutting edge of bible-aid, it would address Christ's final parables--those lessons he gave in his most advanced spiritual state of being.
Where does the PFAL canon teach us how to understand these very important teachings of Christ?
Here is an answer I might once have given:
"It was written to give us hope. We are not meant to fully understand it because it is not addressed to us, but to those people who will live in that administration, such as post-grace Israel."
Problem is, I have yet to find where Jesus expresses this. Seems to me, that he often expresses the timing as NOW and FUTURE, meaning: beginning from when he gave the revelations and since then.
I have many more new questions for you when you ready.
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 16, 2003 at 18:03.]
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
vickles
I wasn't going to post on here again...But I just can't help it....Help, I've fallin and can't get up!!!
Garth-that pic is way too funny..cracks me up. Is there some way I could get a poster of that?
:D-->
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Oakspear
Ginger:
Thanks!
:D-->
Mike:
Of course I'll still buy you a Leinenkugel, thinking that a person is full of .... does not prevent me from springing for a round
Oakspear
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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Mike
I just want to than y?all fo refrainin from postin anythin of substance seein that I?m kinda tarrrrred and all...it?s quarter to one am...and I?m pooped....dizzydogs spinnin in my head and all...term papers due and all...SamuelAdamsinsteadofLeinenkugel OH Yes! Scarlett! Tomorrow?s Another Day!
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Goey
Some Thoughts:
Mike: "How do you think Dr would feel if he found out that his final instructions were lost?"
Answer: He would not give a damn, knowing that God is greater than any "final instructions" he could possibly have given - and that God would not allow the spiritual well being of all of humanity rest upon an obscure teaching of one man. He would be bewildered as to how a few folks could have taken his teachings and exalted them to the Word of God.
Mike: "How do you think he?d feel to learn that in the year 1998, tens of thousands (I?ve polled hundreds) of grads, Corps, and clergy would not be even aware of the existence of these final instructions, let alone ever inclined to obey them?"
Answer: He would be relieved that no more than a just a few people misconstrued and mistrpresented his final teaching to mean what you say it means.
Mike: "When Dr?s up, I?ll be there with a clean conscience to greet him."
Answer: And then old Doc Vic himself can explain to you how far off track you got in regards to his so-called "final instructions". But then you would probably argue with VPW himself him about what he really meant in his "final instructions."
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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def59
I don't think Dr. is going to be "up." He taught a doctrine of devils and sold his soul for money and power and lust.
I am afraid he is facing a heated experience right now.?
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GarthP2000
And even if Dr. felt according to what Mike thinks, .... that would be totally irrelevent to anything of importance.
And if God is indeed according to VPW according to Mike, then I for sure wouldn't believe in him. At all! ((gag))
Surely humanity has something to live for greater than VPW!
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Tom Strange
hey Vickles: I dare ya to right click on that picture and set it as your background! (the voices say "double dare you")
great pic Garth...
P.S. my winning percentage is up two more points! thanks Mr6er! (Goey, I haven't forgotten you)...
... big hitter, the lama...
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Steve Lortz
Mike - If a reader didn't know that you were being deliberately evasive, he could only conclude that you are very stupid. But we know that is not the case. I'll repeat the question. It's not going to go away.
Pro gratia argumentum, I am working this paragraph from page 83 of PFAL when two spiritual voices begin whispering different things to me.
Spiritual voice "A" whispers, "Wierwille meant exactly what Wierwille wrote."
Spiritual voice "B" whispers, "We just don't KNOW exactly what Wierwille wrote. The spiritual meaning of this passage is that SOME of what Wierwille writes will NECESSARILY be God-breathed."
According to your own stated criteria, Mike, is whispering spiritual voice "B" God's voice or the adversary's?
Love,
Steve
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dizzydog
Mike,
Let me say one thing here. I am not going to respond to you as many others do, I am not trying to hurt you. I see how so many take pleasure in the fight with you. I do not. I have stepped out of this forum on a number of occasions intentionally so that I do not get out of line.
My goal is to see the body of Christ dwell together in unity and be likeminded. Saying that, I know this will not happen until the return of Christ.
You wrote:
?On a practical basis, NEARLY all the KJV verses you believe, I believe, and the way you believe them, but for different reasons.
How many people can you say that of? That they have NEARLY all of the same Bible verse beliefs as you??
I am not sure there is anyone that fits into this category, not even my wife. And that is a good thing. There are still too many things I am wrong about, ignorant about. Of course, what I believe is not the standard. THANK GOD! As I said these things will not matter once Christ returns.
Having said all of that I appreciate the heart behind your comment. I am sure you see this as a good thing.
With regard to my posts and where they came from.
Actually you have responded to two articles by VPW, although you may not have realized it.
My first post was taken from a Way Magazine article in 1962 (September I think). With the exception of the first two lines everything else is VPW. I changed nothing and wrote the article in its entirety. If you reread it starting with the paragraph where the quote from Revelation is you will have the complete article.
I will give you some credit here. Initially you read the article and went on the attack toward me. I almost let you have it at that point but I backed off and questioned your responses to give you the chance to give the article an honest review. Your responses then indicated thoughtfulness to the material and it has kept me from being ugly toward you. Perhaps you realized what I had done. I will say the few objections you had were not toward me but rather VPW. He is the one who called the Bible a book. I have more articles to show his attitude toward the Book of the Bible. Notice I did not say KJV, I also did not say an abstraction.
In a subtle way I think maybe you and I agree more than we are saying. I will not go to the extents you do in your characterizations of our current translations because I see that as disrespectful to God who has had to keep these things intact for the last two thousand years. When VPW shows us that the order of the seven church epistles is divine is nothing short of a miracle in my mind. That God could keep the Scriptures that intact for all these years is remarkable, errors in translation aside. I truly do believe that is what VPW meant when he said that we could interpret 85-90% of the Word of God in the verse. It is there to be interpreted, with the right keys. As he said the seven Church epistles are the complete curriculum for the believer.
Which brings us to your question. The last article was from a Way Magazine ? Our Times article in November of 1978. If you doubt my veracity about this I will scan the articles so that you can see I at least had something to copy from. You likely will not be able to read them that way (they are already Xerox?s of the originals). You will have to trust I did an adequate job of transcribing.
I have more if you want.
I am going to offer one thing to you here. I do not argue Dr?s last instructions; I argue your interpretation of why he gave those instructions. He wanted people to get their heads back into the Word. PFAL provided the keys for understanding the seven church epistles (and the rest of the Bible). Not only understanding but also rightly-dividing it. As you have pointed out so clearly, it has not been rightly-divided since the first century church.
He wanted people to pick up the keys to unlock the door to the Scriptures again. We can argue about whether he was right, I am sure eternity will tell. I think we are closer now than ever, but not there yet. Perhaps not until Christ returns.
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def59
We have 66 books that serve as our curriculum. Elevating seven letters that point BACK to Christ and the Gospels and the Old Testament is wrong!
When we elevate Paul's letters over Christ's words in the Gospels we commit idolatry.
Do we follow Paul? Did he die for our sins?
Paul knew the answer.
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def59
One more point
VPW didn't come up with the seven epistles thing, it was Bullinger.
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dizzydog
thank you
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dizzydog
didn't see that coming...not
I'm surprised it took as long as it did.
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Mike
def59,
Jesus' words pre-Pentecost were good, but his post-Pentecost words to Paul, to be echoed in his epistles, are better.
If you look at Acts, there are three post-Pentecost appearances of Christ. Some Bibles even have his words in red. These places are the three places in Acts where the Road to Damascus incident are brought up. The first is in the chronological narrative, and the next two are flashbacks by Paul to the same incident. Add up all three incidents to get a composite of Jesus? words, and they read a lot like Colossians, Chapter One, the ?Christ in you? chapter.
If you follow you reasoning out, the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are not identical to Jesus? words, unless you believe they were inspired by God. Ditto for Paul. What Paul wrote was just as authoritative as Jesus speaking to you personally, because Paul got his written words from the same source Jesus got his from: God.
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Mike
dizzydog,
You wrote: ?Let me say one thing here. I am not going to respond to you as many others do, I am not trying to hurt you. I see how so many take pleasure in the fight with you. I do not. I have stepped out of this forum on a number of occasions intentionally so that I do not get out of line.?
I admire that. The mob mentality is easy to get caught up in. It?s happened to me. I do get the picture that you are not trying to hurt.
*****
You wrote: ?My goal is to see the body of Christ dwell together in unity and be likeminded. Saying that, I know this will not happen until the return of Christ.?
My goal too! I do believe we are at the time when it is finally available to be like minded in the perfectly renewed mind.
Here is what Dr said in the 1979 Advanced Class (segment 6) with my ALL-CAPS:
?And class, that can only be when we all speak the same thing on God's Word. No one will ever qualify for first Corinthians one, ten, unless they get their heads and their hearts into the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word. How will we ever speak the same thing unless we STUDY THE SAME THING, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself. If you and I do not rightly divide the Word of God, there's gonna be division among us.?
He told us what ?same thing? we needed to study, to master, and it?s not the KJV, or the Greek, or any of the traditional items that pass for or are closely associated with the Bible or God?s Word.
The ?same thing? we are to study to get like minded is PFAL.
*****
You wrote: ?Actually you have responded to two articles by VPW, although you may not have realized it.?
I thought something was up.
*****
You wrote: ?My first post was taken from a Way Magazine article in 1962 (September I think). With the exception of the first two lines everything else is VPW. I changed nothing and wrote the article in its entirety. If you reread it starting with the paragraph where the quote from Revelation is you will have the complete article.?
That?s pretty early. The conditions were different then. Revelation may change, and I see an evolution of revelation. In 1962 it was right and proper for grads to think 9in terms of really getting to know the KJV ?book.? As the 1942 project progressed, the conditions changed, and the revelation to Dr changed, and his instructions to us changed.
As the collaterals progressed in their development from articles and booklets, what was best for grad development changed. In 1962 there was far less of the PFAL writings to master, hence what WAS available was the main target.
In 1977, GMWD, the last collateral that had chapters assigned as homework for class sessions was released. In 1979 Dr started letting Advanced Class students know that they better take these books seriously in this passage from segment #5:
?I have set for our people, and it's set in the book on
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today," and people, when you
reach the Advanced Class, you ought to be able almost
to quote this line for line. You should have mastered
this book by the time you get to the Advanced Class.
If you haven't, you better get busy and do it - work it
to where you understand the Word of God in every facet,
in every way of it's utilization regarding the holy
spirit field - all of them, you must know this book, in
and out. But I've discovered as I've worked among my
people, and even all the grads of the Advanced Class,
there still are areas where we got to push ourselves.?
Then in 1982, he said that the research was done and we needed to run with what we had.
Then at Sound Out'84 he brought up mastering the books again.
Then in 1985 he said point blank to master the PFAL writings.
So in 1962, things were different. From what I?ve seen, Dr himself in later teachings, supercedes a lot of the approach in the 1962 text you posted. I?ve not studied much of Dr?s material before 1968.
******
You wrote: ?I will give you some credit here. Initially you read the article and went on the attack toward me.?
I think this is where I had a hard time paying attention to you, since I had multiple conversations cooking. That was a particularly fast and furious posting session, and I could see I was loosing it in tracking with you. I was somewhat countering past conversations I had with you mixed with the current post.
******
You wrote: ?In a subtle way I think maybe you and I agree more than we are saying.?
This is what I was referring to about our common KJV verse like mindedness.
*****
You wrote: ?I will not go to the extents you do in your characterizations of our current translations because I see that as disrespectful to God who has had to keep these things intact for the last two thousand years.?
Just like that scroll got consumed in Jer.36, things didn?t keep so intact for the last 2000 years. Yes, the text itself is the least tattered in the chain or transmission to us, but there are many weaker links I?ve also mentioned. Changes in languages and cultures, religious bias in the teaching of ancient languages, religious bias in the minds of every translator, and religious bias in the mind of every reader make for the condition Dr described as buried before the 1942 promise.
The Word wasn?t totally buried, but enough of it was for the power to be gone, except in isolated individuals, who were rarely able to teach others.
******
You wrote: ?When VPW shows us that the order of the seven church epistles is divine is nothing short of a miracle in my mind.?
It seems they were assembled together a very early date, and circulated as a unit. Peter refers to ?all? Paul?s epistles in this way.
*****
You wrote: ?It is there to be interpreted, with the right keys. As he said the seven Church epistles are the complete curriculum for the believer.?
The keys must be mastered, though. Partial mastery of the keys means partial access to the curriculum. Trusting the KJV translators, or any other 5-senses helpers, to deliver to us all that we need to access the seven Church epistles is what Dr said we should NOT do. To access the seven Church epistles we must master PFAL. They?re in there.
******
You wrote: ?Which brings us to your question. The last article was from a Way Magazine ? Our Times article in November of 1978. If you doubt my veracity about this I will scan the articles so that you can see I at least had something to copy from. You likely will not be able to read them that way (they are already Xerox?s of the originals). You will have to trust I did an adequate job of transcribing.?
I trust.
The date was what I wanted. I was searching around in the books for it.
******
You wrote: ?I have more if you want.?
Yes. I?m very interested in collecting e-texts of Dr?s stuff. Please e-mail me.
******
You wrote: ?I am going to offer one thing to you here. I do not argue Dr?s last instructions; I argue your interpretation of why he gave those instructions. He wanted people to get their heads back into the Word. PFAL provided the keys for understanding the seven church epistles (and the rest of the Bible). Not only understanding but also rightly-dividing it. As you have pointed out so clearly, it has not been rightly-divided since the first century church.?
Yes. We can?t rightly divide it alone, away from PFAL, any better than the denominations have done it over the centuries. It?s God?s 1942 intervention that put Dr over the top in making this available to us. It?s ONLY by mastering PFAL that we can master God?s Word.
The reason PFAL brings us this, when all other approaches fail, is because PFAL was given by revelation. It is not a man-breathed aid to seeing the scriptures, it?s a God-breathed aid. In mastering the PFAL revelations we not only get an accurate view of the ancient scriptures, but God also has given us a written revelation, addressed to us, so that we can carry out a job special to us.
This special job has to do with the return of Christ. You mentioned Christ?s return several times. I see God?s 1942 intervention as very intimately connected with the Return. There are wonderful things in the PFAL record for the mastering students to find on this.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 16, 2003 at 4:52.]
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def59
Mike,
First, thanks for finally responding, I feel so blessed.:0
All of Jesus' words carry the same weight. When you are The Way, they tend to that. The problem with elevating Paul's letters above any other scripture is that it tends to diminish Jesus' words as mentioned in the Gospels.
I believe that we should take the whole Word of God and not just certain verses "as written to us."
Too often we, who were in TWI, had a tendency to dismiss Jesus and elevate Paul which led us to elevate vpw.
But we should also take a look at James, John and Peter's letters as well. Those verses also tell us what we, in the church, should do and act.
All, of this must be done in light of Jesus, who is the Word made Flesh.
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def59
Mike,
First, thanks for finally responding, I feel so blessed.:0
All of Jesus' words carry the same weight. When you are The Way, they tend to that. The problem with elevating Paul's letters above any other scripture is that it tends to diminish Jesus' words as mentioned in the Gospels.
I believe that we should take the whole Word of God and not just certain verses "as written to us."
Too often we, who were in TWI, had a tendency to dismiss Jesus and elevate Paul which led us to elevate vpw.
But we should also take a look at James, John and Peter's letters as well. Those verses also tell us what we, in the church, should do and act.
All, of this must be done in light of Jesus, who is the Word made Flesh.
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dizzydog
Mike wrote:
"Jesus' words pre-Pentecost were good, but his post-Pentecost words to Paul, to be echoed in his epistles, are better."
I can't agree with you on this one. All Jesus Christ's words carry the same weight in eternity. The "pre-pentecost" words accomplished exactly what they were designed to do. Likewise the "post-pentecost" words also accomplished what they were designed to do. All were needed equally according to God's design. And were said in the order they needed to be said in.
As far as the Pauline epistles. It's because of what Jesus Christ did and said that I am thankful to have those epistles. If someone does something great for me, like deliver me from death unto life for example. And someone else explains what was done I have good reason to be thankful. I am not worshipping the messenger, I simply have more reason to praise the Lord.
As far as Bullinger originally writing these things...
No argument here.
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Mike
Dizzydog and def59,
As far as Bullinger originally writing these things... I have LOT?S of arguments here!
How do you know what his sources were? He might have gotten little pieces here and there (like Bob Dylan) and then put them together. If the pieces are small enough, in the past enough, or numerous enough, then people don?t bother to tell the sources. He might have also gotten some big chunks this way. Some of the putting together and some of the chunks might have been by revelation for God, in which case his source was divine, but a source nonetheless.
Another thing to consider is two ?originators? coming up with the same thing at the same time, or similar times, or different places, but from different sources. This phenomenon happens OFTEN in science, when the conditions are ripe. Liebitz and Newton both came up with calculus in near the same decades. Schroedinger?s wave mechanics was identical to Heisenberg?s matrix mechanics is another uncontested spectacular example. There are many other less well known or clear examples regarding many inventions and ideas that seem to be ?ripe? or in the wind for multiple ?original? breakthroughs.
*********
You wrote: ?Likewise the "post-pentecost" words also accomplished what they were designed to do. All were needed equally according to God's design. And were said in the order they needed to be said in.?
Right, and some of Jesus? post-Pentecost statements override his pre-Pentecost. Actually the boundary lines are a bit fuzzy here, and some things changed just a little before Pentecost. The classic example Bullinger uses in ?How to Enjoy the Bible? is the pre-statement of Jesus that his disciples should go only to the lost sheep of Israel, and no Gentiles. Later, when things changed the message was ?include gentiles.?
In these times, Jesus post-Pentecost revelations to Paul are what Peter said we better get right in his dying last words. Peter says it was Paul?s epistles that many were screwing up on.
As for the ?for our learning? aspect of Jesus pre-Pentecost words, there is an absolute TREASURY of beautiful teaching of these items in Jesus Christ Is Not God, Jesus Christ Our Passover, and Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed.
Anyone who diminished Jesus heart that?s displayed in the 4 gospels, did so against what we were taught in the writings. Dr?s repeated ?Christ Formed In You? series of teachings pointed out how we must become that same personality that is depicted in the Jesus of those 4 gospels. Then, as I pointed out on this thread before, the Zacheus chapter in Dr?s last book tells us point blank to climb over or up on anything we need to see Jesus.
Def, you wrote: ?Too often we, who were in TWI, had a tendency to dismiss Jesus and elevate Paul which led us to elevate vpw.?
I agree, and this tendency, identified here as TVT, would have been squelched if we had paid better attention to the teachings listed in the sentences above.
?But we should also take a look at James, John and Peter's letters as well. Those verses also tell us what we, in the church, should do and act. All, of this must be done in light of Jesus, who is the Word made Flesh.?
I agree. Dr taught that Jesus Christ was the grand subject throughout all of the Word, or something like that. Elements of his mind are distributed all through it. John?s first letter gets major treatment in two separate chapters of PFAL, one of which covers every verse. Dr often encouraged reading these things on our own. Some of us did read and work them. I spent years working the agreement between James and Romans. Peter?s epistles were a constant source of study and encouragement.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 16, 2003 at 14:03.]
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dizzydog
I see no insult or argument in giving both VPW and Bullinger credit for making these things known. And I did not say VPW got it from Bullinger.
Of course, he might have...
It doesn't really matter if God was the author.
Right Mike?
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Raf
I think it's patently obvious that VPW got it from Bullinger. I just don't think that, in and of itself, is a big deal. I don't even think it's wrong.
I only think it's wrong if VPW took what Bullinger wrote and passed it off as his own (which he did in the chapter "The Counsel of the Lord" in the Blue Book).
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def59
Mike,
You will lose me by referring to JCiNG, and like books. I don't agree with vpw's conclusions, premises or logic on any of those subjects anymore.
As for Jesus' words on reaching the Gentiles, it wasn't a change, it was fulfillment of OT prophecy that of the promise God made to Abraham.
While it is true that we are no longer the law and we should shun legalism (you know, if we don't do things like you do then it can't be right mentality.)
What we must do is allow God to speak through the Scriptures, faith comes by hearing (gasp 5 senses) and hearing by the word of God.
To teach that the Pauline epistles have pre-eminence over any other scripture is ludicrous.
I love his letters, don't get me wrong. But Luke and John and Matthew and Mark also did a good job. And I want to learn what Jesus had to say while he was on this earth. After all, He meant it!s
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Tom Strange
Just to keep you all up to date... by using Zixar's method, I'm a full 7 percentage points higher in winning! In just a few days I'll try Goey's method, although it looks to be quite complex and I'm just a simple minded Texan...
I really am amazed, Mike, at the difference it makes... I thought that my old way of thinking about it, approaching it was very logical and "the best" way... but I was open to suggestions, to different opinions, and look what happened! and in such a short time!
I'm still looking forward to your thoughts and theories, Mike, as I endeavor to master Solitaire... thanks again for your help Zixar! Goey, do you have any tips for your methods?
... big hitter, the lama...
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sirguessalot
Mike, thinking of importance of books...
I often wondered why the last teaching of Jesus Christ is neglected in the PFAL books (meaning that VPW refers to very few scriptures from that book). But final instructions to followers are quite important, right?
Then it seems to me, that if PFAL is THE cutting edge of bible-aid, it would address Christ's final parables--those lessons he gave in his most advanced spiritual state of being.
Where does the PFAL canon teach us how to understand these very important teachings of Christ?
Here is an answer I might once have given:
"It was written to give us hope. We are not meant to fully understand it because it is not addressed to us, but to those people who will live in that administration, such as post-grace Israel."
Problem is, I have yet to find where Jesus expresses this. Seems to me, that he often expresses the timing as NOW and FUTURE, meaning: beginning from when he gave the revelations and since then.
I have many more new questions for you when you ready.
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 16, 2003 at 18:03.]
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